Exactly HOW is religion supposed to give meaning to life?

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Originally Posted by Varenne Rodin

My son was beaten up by a group of Christian children at his school because they demanded to know if he went to church and he said no. My aunt accused me of trying to corrupt the family simply by declining to have my child baptized. I've been called a devil worshipper for my aspirations to be a scientist. I haven't even discussed my atheism with my friends and family much, but my community insists on "exposing interlopers." I have some decent Christian friends, but they still shake their heads at me in disgust because I refuse to join their crowd.

When I talk about religious groups here, I am generally talking about Christian extremists. I haven't wanted to single them out by saying that I have never been insulted or attacked by Buddhists, but it's true.

The majority of American Christians assert that the bible is literally true and backed up by physical evidence. They say evolution never happened. God is in every sentence of every conversation with these zealots. In every breath. It's accompanied by sneering tones. My aunt is looking for a house. She has gone on and on about her search on Facebook, begging for friends to pray harder so she can find the house of her dreams. Her friends say bizarre things in response like, "Truly, yours is a family FAVORED by GOD. He will find you your perfect house. It will be HIS house and WORTHY of HIS grandness!" Also, "May Jesus Christ strike down those who put in opposing offers, for you are blessed by the divine!" There is zero awareness that they don't have to speak that way. "Got my groceries today. The tomatoes weren't on sale, but what can you do? God is good! Love my life! Not afraid to preach his word!" It erupts out of nothing.

Some people just rant and rave nonsense. Speaking in "tongues." It's terrifying. It's disgusting. Christians are the majority. Secular people are repressed for not screaming God praise. Ask a lot of soldiers from my navy town why they signed up to go to Iraq, they'll tell you they did it to kill Muslims for God. Bumperstickers proclaim "Jesus and the American soldier are the only ones who ever died for YOU!" They see themselves as weapons in the hands of God. This is when "spirituality" is at its most dangerous, when people think they are actual puppets of deities, and that their lives are not their own.

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I agree with you that fanaticism can be very dangerous, and I feel sorry that your situation is like that. Is most of America really like that? It scares me ... The area I live in is full of atheist immigrants who use churches as places for socializing.

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Originally Posted by cl154576

I agree with you that fanaticism can be very dangerous, and I feel sorry that your situation is like that. Is most of America really like that? It scares me ... The area I live in is full of atheist immigrants who use churches as places for socializing.

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It varies from city to city, but even in places where it isn't rampant, we're forced to "tolerate" the extremists. I once sent my son to a "summer day camp water park" that was hosted by a local church (on the recommendation of a friend). Once he was there, they put him into army clothes and had him wear "I love Jesus" dog tags. They told him he was a soldier in the army of god and that the kids at the camp would be training for "spiritual warfare." Needless to say, he did not go back a second time. Some normal people attended that church, even atheists like you mentioned, but the church leaders here are bonkers. It's brainwashing on a very large scale.

I live in Southern California, near the Mexican border. I would say the ratio here is 75/25 extremists to sane people. You go to downtown areas or further north to Los Angeles, and people are more progressive. San Francisco seems to have the least amount of zealots in the state. I've heard that education is greatly valued in Seattle, and that keeps extremism low. New York is progressive, but it's got people of all different religions and cultures, so it's hard to pinpoint a general attitude in the area.

The bible belt seems to be expanding here, with almost all of the "southern" states hosting billboards blasting outrage over abortion and birth control in the name of Christ love, interspersed with signs reading "NUDE GIRLS! NEXT EXIT!" I can't laugh enough about the bumperstickers. "I love Jesus and my GUN!"

Still, America is not as scary as I'm making it seem. "These people are cowards, Donnie," as Walter from The Big Lebowski would say. A lot of people have been frightened by the terrorist attacks on 9/11, and the increasingly shocking "news" the media puts forth. They want to feel safe. They want to think their relatives are waiting for them and they want to fight anyone who thinks otherwise. Some of it has been the result of funding cuts to schools across the nation. I still think people have room to change and grow. I'm optimistic that this ultra religious trend will fade here like so many other American fads. There are brilliant people here too. Scientists, writers, filmmakers, artists. I hope the world won't give up on us just yet.

I didn't realise it was like that so much in the US. We get an impression of the culture here, but that's the one put forward by the media and is perhaps focused on progressive cities like NY. It explains a lot.

I'm at heart, Christian, so my comments aren't a criticism of Christianity.

Idaho is extremely religious. The false "Christianity" we have now is a fervor that the talk radio pundits have stirred up and figured out how to capitalize on, by "empowering" the common, ignorant individual and making ignorance a virtue. We face problems now that require some very intelligent/educated people to figure out, and the ignorant should be told to sit down and shut up, but talk radio pundits and the Fox News crowd put the issues into nutshells, and the ignorant feel very proud that they understand and can make the decisions, just as they understand that it doesn't matter how much we destroy the earth, because God will give us a new one.

I have no hope that anything will get better because as our educational system and economy continues to erode, people will reach for simple, pat answers and comfort.

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Originally Posted by Vonny

I'm at heart, Christian, so my comments aren't a criticism of Christianity.

Idaho is extremely religious. The false "Christianity" we have now is a fervor that the talk radio pundits have stirred up and figured out how to capitalize on, by "empowering" the common, ignorant individual and making ignorance a virtue. We face problems now that require some very intelligent/educated people to figure out, and the ignorant should be told to sit down and shut up, but talk radio pundits and the Fox News crowd put the issues into nutshells, and the ignorant feel very proud that they understand and can make the decisions, just as they understand that it doesn't matter how much we destroy the earth, because God will give us a new one.

I have no hope that anything will get better because as our educational system and economy continues to erode, people will reach for simple, pat answers and comfort.

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Wow, Vonny. That's it exactly. Somehow this country turned ignorance into virtue. This is why we should not have been quite as "tolerant" as so many people demand. I'm not sure how to fix it either. So where to move to? The UK? France? Canada?

Mandatory IQ tests for voting rights would probably decrease my dislike of modern Christians.

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Originally Posted by Varenne Rodin

Mandatory IQ tests for voting rights would probably decrease my dislike of modern Christians.

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I'm thinking that your dislike for Christians has more to do with your own perspective and bias than their voting record. This is just another statement supporting Totalitarianism. Seems like you are wanting to silence the opposing viewpoints.

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Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC

I'm thinking that your dislike for Christians has more to do with your own perspective and bias than their voting record. This is just another statement supporting Totalitarianism. Seems like you are wanting to silence the opposing viewpoints.

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You know what? No. That is false. I have never taken issue with someone's personal faith. My only grievance is that large blocks of church voters have forced poor judgment on our governing system. As I have said many times, this is a hindrance to progress. Perhaps some people have never met the kinds of Christians who don't care about the earth because they "believe there's a better life after this one," but those Christians do exist, and they have the loudest, most overbearing voice in America right now. I have to live as someone who values this planet, this life.

Thanks for the personal attack. I'm sure you'll get the thread closed now. Bummer.

If you were paying attention, you would perhaps notice that I have conceded something here. I LIKE Christians when they do not fall into the category of the extremely under-educated. Terrence Malick, for example, is one of my favorite directors. He's a brilliant Christian man and a far cry from the Jerry Springer group, of which you seem unacquainted. It's not totalitarianism to suggest that voters push themselves to be educated enough to qualify to have a vote. We force people to take driving tests before granting them driving licenses. Should we stop doing that? We have managers at companies go through all sorts of tests before granting them the power to make the big decisions. Should entry level people be skipped ahead to an executive level to avoid hurting their feelings?

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Originally Posted by Varenne Rodin

You know what? No. That is false. I have never taken issue with someone's personal faith. My only grievance is that large blocks of church voters have forced poor judgment on our governing system. As I have said many times, this is a hindrance to progress. Perhaps some people have never met the kinds of Christians who don't care about the earth because they "believe there's a better life after this one," but those Christians do exist, and they have the loudest, most overbearing voice in America right now. I have to live as someone who values this planet, this life.

Thanks for the personal attack. I'm sure you'll get the thread closed now. Bummer.

If you were paying attention, you would perhaps notice that I have conceded something here. I LIKE Christians when they do not fall into the category of the extremely under-educated. Terrence Malick, for example, is one of my favorite directors. He's a brilliant Christian man and a far cry from the Jerry Springer group, of which you seem unacquainted. It's not totalitarianism to suggest that voters push themselves to be educated enough to qualify to have a vote. We force people to take driving tests before granting them driving licenses. Should we stop doing that? We have managers at companies go through all sorts of tests before granting them the power to make the big decisions. Should entry level people be skipped ahead to an executive level to avoid hurting their feelings?

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I'm sorry....where was the personal attack? I did not attack you at all. I don't agree with your perspective at all though. I could say the same thing about those who have the atheistic lean who put there faith in the own interpretive science. The theory of evolution is still just a theory...and I wish that it was not presented as fact. Evolution seems as far fetched to me as creation seems to atheists, and the evidence doesn't support it. I wish that the education system was not controlled by the liberal bias. I wish that our legislation wasn't so left leaning. Maybe we need both sides to keep the balance...instead of wishing that we could silence the one side. You think that the "religious" people need educated, well, maybe the atheists need just as much education (but not by an atheist institution like most of our universities are...)

To me, spirituality is mental illness. I have no problem with it if it does no harm.

What spirituality do you have experience of?

So are you going to respond? Your post implies that religious people/ spiritual people are mentally ill, and it is an interesting point.

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

We don't get a lot of extremism shoved down our throats here in the UK. There are extreme sects, but they don't have any voice in any wide sense. Is it different in the US? We see idiotic pastors burning books and causing hurt at funerals etc on the news in the US, but not too much. We certainly don't have those religious channels.

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Paul, in actuality, there isn't much extremism. I think that the problem is that due to an unscrupulous media, these religious nutcases get a stage. There are idiots who desire to burn Korans, and the media broadcasts it. There are morons who start protesting funerals, and the media broadcasts it. There are murderous hatemongers who kill abortion doctors, and the media broadcasts it.

In reality, the 98% (if not higher) of the Christians condemn these idiots as well. Should we judge all atheists based on the actions of the boys who shot all those people in the Columbine school because they were atheists?

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

So are you going to respond? Your post implies that religious people/ spiritual people are mentally ill, and it is an interesting point.

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It doesn't seem she was implying that, just using it as a comparison.

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

To me, spirituality is mental illness. I have no problem with it if it does no harm.

What spirituality do you have experience of?

So are you going to respond? Your post implies that religious people/ spiritual people are mentally ill, and it is an interesting point.

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I have experienced psychosis and must admit that spirituality looks and sounds the same. All I'm saying is, clinical psychosis must be a nightmare to diagnose.

Evolution is not a theory. It clearly happened and is still happening. Whether someone created the original cells that organisms evolved from, I have no idea. Science has no idea. It doesn't claim to. We can't know what happened before anything in our universe existed. I can't believe people are STILL denying that adaptations occur. Do you understand at all why some viruses spontaneously become stronger than they ever were before? Have you ever seen a chameleon? Do we all look like cavemen to you? Do you also deny that dinosaurs existed? QED. Thanks, JDC.

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Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC

Paul, in actuality, there isn't much extremism. I think that the problem is that due to an unscrupulous media, these religious nutcases get a stage. There are idiots who desire to burn Korans, and the media broadcasts it. There are morons who start protesting funerals, and the media broadcasts it. There are murderous hatemongers who kill abortion doctors, and the media broadcasts it.

In reality, the 98% (if not higher) of the Christians condemn these idiots as well. Should we judge all atheists based on the actions of the boys who shot all those people in the Columbine school because they were atheists?

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I know what you mean about unscrupulous media. Varenne has a different take on it though. Is it a case of different areas and emphases? I haven't visited the US, but i understand it's size and diversity.

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Originally Posted by Varenne Rodin

Evolution is not a theory. It clearly happened and is still happening. Whether someone created the original cells that organisms evolved from, I have no idea. Science has no idea. It doesn't claim to. We can't know what happened before anything in our universe existed. I can't believe people are STILL denying that adaptations occur. Do you understand at all why some viruses spontaneously become stronger than they ever were before? Have you ever seen a chameleon? Do we all look like cavemen to you? Do you also deny that dinosaurs existed? QED. Thanks, JDC.

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No, in fact, the dinosaurs are recorded in the Bible (long before our society discovered their existence. We have NEVER observed General Evolution, therefore we have no real evidence (even though some have loosely interpreted some things as evidence). However, there are some things referred to as Special Evolution that even the religious believe to be the case. But these cases of Special Evolution cannot explain adaptations that would change one "kind" of species into another "kind" of species. Therefore the theory (which really only ranks as a hypothesis) is not fact.

QED?

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Originally Posted by G L Wilson

I have experienced psychosis and must admit that spirituality looks and sounds the same. All I'm saying is, clinical psychosis must be a nightmare to diagnose.

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I'm sorry if you felt you had to say that GL. I wasn't trying to pry.

I understand the connection between mental illness and religion. We used to run meditation classes, and it did attract quite a few people with mental health issues. Most of them were trying to find a solution to a problem, but we couldn't help them. They needed medical assistance.

My wife also has experience of working with people with mental health issues in the National Health Service. She says that those she saw with serious problems often had religious fixations. It's very sad.

Having said that, the two are not the same. You can clearly make a distinction. That's the ones with serious, debilitating conditions. Obviously those who recover are somewhat different. I think the statistic in the UK is 1 in 4.

We often, as Buddhists, used to wonder at the karmic conditions that could result in a person pursuing religion but with a complete inability to engage with it. Imagine having what you percieve to be something you consider will help you in your hand but being unable to use it - in this case calming meditation? It's a bit like Tantalus. If there was hell on earth - and from what I've seen of some unfortunate people, you don't need to travel too far to find it - then that must be one of the frustrating hells. Just speculation though, and only referring to those with lifelong mental problems.

Hell is in the mind and there is no such thing as heaven - that is how I would describe clinical psychosis.

I don't see why the education system can't cover the theory of evolution AND the theory of creation. As I have said before, depsite our beliefs, the history of humankind has always had God(s) and puzzled endlessly about science. Why hide it?

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Originally Posted by G L Wilson

Hell is in the mind and there is no such thing as heaven - that is how I would describe clinical psychosis.

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I wouldn't dispute the hell in the mind idea. Awful, from what I've seen. I would also say there are physical hellish conditions that humans can endure too.

Heavens - (Buddhist view not Christian etc) - these are recorded in the stories of the Buddha. they are not an ultimate, final heaven, but a place where very fortunate beings go and live as Gods. They have to leave eventually though, which makes them part of our wheel of suffering life.

There are heavenly conditions on earth, but these are much more elusive and transient don't you think. :lol: Typical.

Creation is a junk theory. There is no physical evidence to support it. Evolution has tons of bones and remains layered in the surface of the earth over millions of years, with obvious genetic links and subtle changes to the forms. No one has physical evidence of a creator. It stands to reason that if a deity created the physical world, he should be able to interact with it physically, but he has left zero physical evidence of himself. The stories of him speaking to people sound like lunacy and con jobs. It would be nothing but sick brainwashing to teach it to kids in schools. Evolution doesn't have anything to do with religious theory anyway. It's much more like the theory of gravity, or the theory of the sun. The theory of tides. The theory that the moon influences the tides. These are all standing theories because they are testable, they are backed up by physical evidence, and they cannot be disproven. Creation theory can't be tested, and there is zero evidence. It cannot be evaluated by science, or experienced in the physical world, so it's like the theory of unicorns. Why not teach the children that unicorns and dragons made babies, then turned those babies into humans with magic? Let's throw everything at these poor children and watch them go crazy!

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Originally Posted by Delta40

I don't see why the education system can't cover the theory of evolution AND the theory of creation. As I have said before, depsite our beliefs, the history of humankind has always had God(s) and puzzled endlessly about science. Why hide it?

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Because Creationism isn't a science. Religion does have a place in the education curriculum in history classes, however.

I agree that religion is part of history. Jesus Christ was touched on in the history books at my elementary school. More information than what was given, for most historical figures, would eventually need to be taught in comprehensive elective college courses and, in fact, it is.

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Originally Posted by Drkshadow03

Because Creationism isn't a science. Religion does have a place in the education curriculum in history classes, however.

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I'm sorry, but evolution isn't science either.

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Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC

I'm sorry, but evolution isn't science either.

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If you say so.

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Originally Posted by Drkshadow03

Because Creationism isn't a science. Religion does have a place in the education curriculum in history classes, however.

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Based on history there is a theory of creation. If you want to split hairs on whether or not it comes under the science curriculum or history curriculum then go ahead. My point is that the theory of creation is NOT taught at schools, including history. Anything containing the R word is lightly touched upon at best. I'm referring mainly to government schools of course.

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Originally Posted by Delta40

Based on history there is a theory of creation. If you want to split hairs on whether or not it comes under the science curriculum or history curriculum then go ahead. My point is that the theory of creation is NOT taught at schools, including history. Anything containing the R word is lightly touched upon at best. I'm referring mainly to government schools of course.

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I was agreeing with you. I don't think the theory of creation should be taught in public schools at all, except perhaps in a literature class on mythology or Creation Narratives or whatever.

During history classes, however, when you read a chapter about the Ancient Near East and Ancient Israel, there should be discussion about Jews and Jewish belief. When you read the chapter on Arabia and the founding of Islam, it should include discussion about the basic beliefs of Islam. Ditto Christianity during the Roman Era. Etc.

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Originally Posted by Drkshadow03

If you say so.

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You show me where we have observed ANYTHING evolving into something different. Because that is what science is about.

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Originally Posted by cl154576

I agree with you that fanaticism can be very dangerous, and I feel sorry that your situation is like that. Is most of America really like that? It scares me ... The area I live in is full of atheist immigrants who use churches as places for socializing.

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From my experience, it is not.

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Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC

You show me where we have observed ANYTHING evolving into something different. Because that is what science is about.

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If you're talking about in real time, tadpoles turn into frogs, sperm turn into humans, caterpillars change into butterflies. This is silly, though. Check out all of the physical defense mechanisms organisms developed after a migration to a new environment. Things like that take time, but there is still clear and obvious evidence. Science is not simply about things changing into other things, I don't know where you get that. You need a refresher on scientific method, if you ever learned about it. This type of ignorance is the "extremism" that has the rational world concerned.

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Originally Posted by Delta40

Based on history there is a theory of creation. If you want to split hairs on whether or not it comes under the science curriculum or history curriculum then go ahead. My point is that the theory of creation is NOT taught at schools, including history. Anything containing the R word is lightly touched upon at best. I'm referring mainly to government schools of course.

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This is the stuff that scares me, that people want children to be subjected to courses instructing them into mass delusion. That you would want this fairy tale preached in schools is just abhorrent. I still have the freedom to not have that done to my family. When will Christians stop trying to force atheists to join the cult? You can believe in your invisible God, don't try to take others with you if they don't want to go. Don't hate people so much for considering other options and seeking more plausible truths. Please?

What meaning do religious people get from life? Nothing, absolutely nothing.

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Originally Posted by Varenne Rodin

If you're talking about in real time, tadpoles turn into frogs, sperm turn into humans, caterpillars change into butterflies. This is silly, though. Check out all of the physical defense mechanisms organisms developed after a migration to a new environment. Things like that take time, but there is still clear and obvious evidence. Science is not simply about things changing into other things, I don't know where you get that. You need a refresher on scientific method, if you ever learned about it. This type of ignorance is the "extremism" that has the rational world concerned.

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I'm sorry....that is not evolution...that is reproductive creation.
No...I mean show me where something like a monkey turns into a man. That education that you think others need, maybe be applicable to yourself as well. (and no....that is not a personal attack)

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Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC

I'm sorry....that is not evolution...that is reproductive creation.
No...I mean show me where something like a monkey turns into a man. That education that you think others need, maybe be applicable to yourself as well. (and no....that is not a personal attack)

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What you are looking for is magic, not science. Science doesn't deal in miracles.

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Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC

I'm sorry....that is not evolution...that is reproductive creation.
No...I mean show me where something like a monkey turns into a man. That education that you think others need, maybe be applicable to yourself as well. (and no....that is not a personal attack)

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You might as well have said to me, "That's not evolution...that's flibba dabba jib sloth purple meeting sprocket is face." I'm trying not to laugh about this, because you're obviously sensitive and I don't wish to hurt your feelings. This is a very strange conversation. I wish you good luck on your war against atheism, science, and education. I hope smacky dacky suntan rabbit toaster chill wrangler comes through for you, and that you can party together in hopscotch monkey bean level 37 for time repulse of not back for. Peace.

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Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC

I could say the same thing about those who have the atheistic lean who put there faith in the own interpretive science. The theory of evolution is still just a theory...and I wish that it was not presented as fact. Evolution seems as far fetched to me as creation seems to atheists, and the evidence doesn't support it. I wish that the education system was not controlled by the liberal bias. I wish that our legislation wasn't so left leaning. Maybe we need both sides to keep the balance...instead of wishing that we could silence the one side. You think that the "religious" people need educated, well, maybe the atheists need just as much education (but not by an atheist institution like most of our universities are...)

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Bienvenu,
Like most who make statements like "the theory of evolution is still just a theory," you seem to be unfamiliar with the definition of the word theory as it is used in scientific contexts. Theory and fact are not antonyms. The fact that something is called a theory has no relation to its truth value. For example, the heliocentric theory of planetary motions is confirmed by unequivocal established fact, and it has been so for centuries. A theory is just a comprehensive explanation of a phenomenon or set of related phenomena. Even after everything the theory predicts is proved true, as in the case of the heliocentric theory, the set of propositions it comprises is still called a theory and will always be so designated. That the theory of evolution has been confirmed as a veridical explanation for countless related natural phenomena and historical processes is an established fact accepted by all reputable life scientists. Only basic scientific illiteracy can allow one to reject it out of hand.

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Originally Posted by Delta40

Based on history there is a theory of creation. If you want to split hairs on whether or not it comes under the science curriculum or history curriculum then go ahead. My point is that the theory of creation is NOT taught at schools, including history. Anything containing the R word is lightly touched upon at best. I'm referring mainly to government schools of course.

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This is not hair-splitting. A theory whose propositions are by their nature not falsifiable does not belong in the science classroom. (Falsifiable means that they are susceptible of confirmation or disconfirmation by means of observation.) As any bright eight-year old will tell you, the theory of creation is not an explanation of anything, since it just substitutes another question (How did God come to be?) for the question of how the universe came to be.

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Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC

You show me where we have observed ANYTHING evolving into something different. Because that is what science is about.

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We have observed the evolution of countless modern species from their historical predecessors through the fossil record and DNA studies. This information is widely available to anyone who actually wants to expand their knowledge.

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Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC

I'm sorry....that is not evolution...that is reproductive creation.
No...I mean show me where something like a monkey turns into a man. That education that you think others need, maybe be applicable to yourself as well. (and no....that is not a personal attack)

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Monkeys don't turn into men. If you mean this in anything close to a literalistic sense, I would recommend some remedial science education. Homo sapiens, monkeys, and other primates are all sub-branches of one particular branch of the evolutionary tree. Humans share common ancestors with monkeys and closer (more recent) ones with apes. When speciation occurs it doesn't mean that one species ceases to exist and another replaces it. Usually it is a matter of two closely related species or populations diverging over time.

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Originally Posted by WyattGwyon

We have observed the evolution of countless modern species from their historical predecessors through the fossil record and DNA studies. This information is widely available to anyone who actually wants to expand their knowledge.

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I've seen the so-called evidence. It is flawed and interpretive. The actual fossils are mere fragments, and the conclusions are sketchy based on circular reasoning. Evolutionary scientists draw their conclusions based on their assumptions. If there is some real evidence, then please post it...don't just say..oh, it's out there somewhere.