Exactly HOW is religion supposed to give meaning to life?

[Paulclem]

Isn't that rather extreme? Most of the people I know are moral, upright atheists who find meaning in serving the community, appreciating small moments, taking care of their family, etc. One needn't believe in a deity to think it is good to be kind to others. For each person, regardless of all else, one's life has whatever meaning one gives it.
I am quite involved in some musical communities, and many of the musicians I know are very spiritual despite being atheist. One does not need to believe in God to feel joy at discovering beauty.

As for the original question – I think people were afraid. They wanted some explanation for the natural phenomena they saw (e.g. volcanoes, thunder) and they did not understand enough about science to come up with more realistic conclusions. Also, it can be frightening to some to imagine that mankind could be an accident, entirely alone in the world, with no special purpose or meaning as a species. I think that's where some of the difference comes in. Religious people are able to give more of a purpose to mankind in general, while non-religious people give meaning to their own lives.

I understand how some people take comfort in the idea of a benevolent protector and Creator. I simply don't believe because I don't wish to. I prefer to feel a connection between myself and the dead geniuses whose work I encounter, rather than a supernatural being who has power over me.

There is an assumption in your post of a kind of self preserving logic - that man in the past has formulated these ideas in response to perfectly natural phenomena. What is missing is the inner, subjective spiritual experiences that inform many people on a personal level. These can be counter intuitive.

These experiences - when verbalised - suffer in the modern view because there's no proof that a prson has them. Nevertheless, they do inform add meaning to lives and propel people onto religious paths.

By the way - I'm not criticising you specifically, but I'm using your post to illustrate a point i think is often missing from analyses of religious thought and motivation.

[G L Wilson]

There is an assumption in your post of a kind of self preserving logic - that man in the past has formulated these ideas in response to perfectly natural phenomena. What is missing is the inner, subjective spiritual experiences that inform many people on a personal level. These can be counter intuitive.

These experiences - when verbalised - suffer in the modern view because there's no proof that a prson has them. Nevertheless, they do inform add meaning to lives and propel people onto religious paths.

By the way - I'm not criticising you specifically, but I'm using your post to illustrate a point i think is often missing from analyses of religious thought and motivation.

See what I mean, cl154576, the wet sponge of spirituality is being thrown at you - you are suppose to suck on it. It could be worse, it could be codswallop.

[SleepyWitch]

I think issues are getting mixed up here. There wasn't a question of trivial things having meaning in day to day life. The big question is, why are we here? What is the point of all of this? What is the "meaning" of life as a whole? It was first stated that religious people want to convince non-believers that life has NO meaning without belief in God. So, just a reminder, the question is: What does religion suggest the singular meaning of life is? To serve God is not enough of an answer. If religion has the market cornered on life's true meaning, what is it?

Thanks for that Varenne, you've rephrased my question much more concisely than I could have done.

[SleepyWitch]

I believe in the spiritual life that follows this one, and that it will be far better than what is here.

hum.. that's one of the things I don't get about religion. Whoever said this life was so bad? I mean, I can understand that life was bad for lots of people in the past in a material sense (and still is for lots of people in the developing world). But what is so bad about our lives as people in the developed world that we need to wish for a better afterlife? Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be antagonistic or saying that we don't have any problems at all. I'd genuinely like to know what kind of things in life religious people judge as bad.

[Varenne Rodin]

Thanks for that Varenne, you've rephrased my question much more concisely than I could have done.

Thank you, SleepyWitch, for posing such a thought provoking question. I thought you did so quite clearly. After the conversation went 'round the track a few times and derailed, it was of interest to me to reset. I'm genuinely interested to know if a religious person will ever concede that perhaps religion is not superior to everything non-religious. It seems the religious harangue the non-believer for want of equal measure and respect, yet they hold their theologies at lofty heights that brook no kindness to differing views.

It is understood that Christians believe there is an unseen deity and an afterlife paradise, but why does that give cause to demean that which is secular?

[Paulclem]

See what I mean, cl154576, the wet sponge of spirituality is being thrown at you - you are suppose to suck on it. It could be worse, it could be codswallop.

Of course what makes or causes these spiritual experiences is a moot point. I think someone with a scientific worldview will dismiss it as not relevant and perhaps being part of some wish fulfilment. Someone growing up in a religious comunity - whose culture is heavily influenced by it - may interpret it in one way. others who wish to break from that tradition may interpret it in terms of an alternative religion. Other seekers perhaps look to new age theories.

Our response is interesting. Does it depend upon some shared community view, is it actually an external religious influence, or does it arise solely within the individual based upon their developed delusions? What does the multitude of different religious traditions mean for what are often similar "spiritual" experiences?

But they can't be dismissed, as they inspire peope different ways, and often to great works. Whatever your view of them, the reality is that there are an awful lot of religious people who use them to add meaning to their lives. Some of them may be intolerant, but will you meet intolerance with intolerance? I think open mindedness is a healthy attitude, because who could claim to know the whole truth of it yet?

[G L Wilson]

Of course what makes or causes these spiritual experiences is a moot point. I think someone with a scientific worldview will dismiss it as not relevant and perhaps being part of some wish fulfilment. Someone growing up in a religious comunity - whose culture is heavily influenced by it - may interpret it in one way. others who wish to break from that tradition may interpret it in terms of an alternative religion. Other seekers perhaps look to new age theories.

Our response is interesting. Does it depend upon some shared community view, is it actually an external religious influence, or does it arise solely within the individual based upon their developed delusions? What does the multitude of different religious traditions mean for what are often similar "spiritual" experiences?

But they can't be dismissed, as they inspire peope different ways, and often to great works. Whatever your view of them, the reality is that there are an awful lot of religious people who use them to add meaning to their lives. Some of them may be intolerant, but will you meet intolerance with intolerance? I think open mindedness is a healthy attitude, because who could claim to know the whole truth of it yet?

To me, spirituality is mental illness. I have no problem with it if it does no harm.

[Varenne Rodin]

Often times, I feel as though I'm being asked to coddle adults like they are children. The problem arises when the "children" are a danger to others.

Like keeping Santa Claus alive in the minds of children, maybe that's fine, but if the children start saying Santa hates gays and they will burn in hell, I don't think it's disrespectful of anyone's beliefs to point out the sickness there. If Santa says atheist people have empty lives, I'm fine with correcting that notion. It doesn't make me intolerant to have a sensible, non-violent approach to intolerance.

[Paulclem]

I agree with that Varenne. I have no truck with that kind of thinking. I really can't see any spirituality in it - just a cultural dogma, and you get that in lots of religions.

What you also get is impressive people, except of course they don't go around broadcasting their views but often just get on with being the good people they are. the danger is that due to the extreme actions and thoughts and proclamations of a few, that we throw out the idea of spirituality altogether. I'm looking at it in a wider sense - certainly not just Christianity, which I often feel is the case on this forum.

We don't get a lot of extremism shoved down our throats here in the UK. There are extreme sects, but they don't have any voice in any wide sense. Is it different in the US? We see idiotic pastors burning books and causing hurt at funerals etc on the news in the US, but not too much. We certainly don't have those religious channels.

To me, spirituality is mental illness. I have no problem with it if it does no harm.

What spirituality do you have experience of?

[Varenne Rodin]

I agree with that Varenne. I have no truck with that kind of thinking. I really can't see any spirituality in it - just a cultural dogma, and you get that in lots of religions.

What you also get is impressive people, except of course they don't go around broadcasting their views but often just get on with being the good people they are. the danger is that due to the extreme actions and thoughts and proclamations of a few, that we throw out the idea of spirituality altogether. I'm looking at it in a wider sense - certainly not just Christianity, which I often feel is the case on this forum.

We don't get a lot of extremism shoved down our throats here in the UK. There are extreme sects, but they don't have any voice in any wide sense. Is it different in the US? We see idiotic pastors burning books and causing hurt at funerals etc on the news in the US, but not too much. We certainly don't have those religious channels.

To me, spirituality is mental illness. I have no problem with it if it does no harm.

What spirituality do you have experience of?

Thank you for your words, Paul. I agree with them. Things are much different here in the US, sadly. Those things you've seen on the news happen quite frequently. It's more than that though. There are very aggressive "super" churches here (think Walmart in church form). I'm not sure if these congregations are spiritual or not, but they are definitely very attached to casting judgments on others, and ridicule and shame. They don't seem like content people.

My son was beaten up by a group of Christian children at his school because they demanded to know if he went to church and he said no. My aunt accused me of trying to corrupt the family simply by declining to have my child baptized. I've been called a devil worshipper for my aspirations to be a scientist. I haven't even discussed my atheism with my friends and family much, but my community insists on "exposing interlopers." I have some decent Christian friends, but they still shake their heads at me in disgust because I refuse to join their crowd.

When I talk about religious groups here, I am generally talking about Christian extremists. I haven't wanted to single them out by saying that I have never been insulted or attacked by Buddhists, but it's true.

The majority of American Christians assert that the bible is literally true and backed up by physical evidence. They say evolution never happened. God is in every sentence of every conversation with these zealots. In every breath. It's accompanied by sneering tones. My aunt is looking for a house. She has gone on and on about her search on Facebook, begging for friends to pray harder so she can find the house of her dreams. Her friends say bizarre things in response like, "Truly, yours is a family FAVORED by GOD. He will find you your perfect house. It will be HIS house and WORTHY of HIS grandness!" Also, "May Jesus Christ strike down those who put in opposing offers, for you are blessed by the divine!" There is zero awareness that they don't have to speak that way. "Got my groceries today. The tomatoes weren't on sale, but what can you do? God is good! Love my life! Not afraid to preach his word!" It erupts out of nothing.

Some people just rant and rave nonsense. Speaking in "tongues." It's terrifying. It's disgusting. Christians are the majority. Secular people are repressed for not screaming God praise. Ask a lot of soldiers from my navy town why they signed up to go to Iraq, they'll tell you they did it to kill Muslims for God. Bumperstickers proclaim "Jesus and the American soldier are the only ones who ever died for YOU!" They see themselves as weapons in the hands of God. This is when "spirituality" is at its most dangerous, when people think they are actual puppets of deities, and that their lives are not their own.

[cl154576]

My son was beaten up by a group of Christian children at his school because they demanded to know if he went to church and he said no. My aunt accused me of trying to corrupt the family simply by declining to have my child baptized. I've been called a devil worshipper for my aspirations to be a scientist. I haven't even discussed my atheism with my friends and family much, but my community insists on "exposing interlopers." I have some decent Christian friends, but they still shake their heads at me in disgust because I refuse to join their crowd.

When I talk about religious groups here, I am generally talking about Christian extremists. I haven't wanted to single them out by saying that I have never been insulted or attacked by Buddhists, but it's true.

The majority of American Christians assert that the bible is literally true and backed up by physical evidence. They say evolution never happened. God is in every sentence of every conversation with these zealots. In every breath. It's accompanied by sneering tones. My aunt is looking for a house. She has gone on and on about her search on Facebook, begging for friends to pray harder so she can find the house of her dreams. Her friends say bizarre things in response like, "Truly, yours is a family FAVORED by GOD. He will find you your perfect house. It will be HIS house and WORTHY of HIS grandness!" Also, "May Jesus Christ strike down those who put in opposing offers, for you are blessed by the divine!" There is zero awareness that they don't have to speak that way. "Got my groceries today. The tomatoes weren't on sale, but what can you do? God is good! Love my life! Not afraid to preach his word!" It erupts out of nothing.

Some people just rant and rave nonsense. Speaking in "tongues." It's terrifying. It's disgusting. Christians are the majority. Secular people are repressed for not screaming God praise. Ask a lot of soldiers from my navy town why they signed up to go to Iraq, they'll tell you they did it to kill Muslims for God. Bumperstickers proclaim "Jesus and the American soldier are the only ones who ever died for YOU!" They see themselves as weapons in the hands of God. This is when "spirituality" is at its most dangerous, when people think they are actual puppets of deities, and that their lives are not their own.

I agree with you that fanaticism can be very dangerous, and I feel sorry that your situation is like that. Is most of America really like that? It scares me ... The area I live in is full of atheist immigrants who use churches as places for socializing.

[Varenne Rodin]

I agree with you that fanaticism can be very dangerous, and I feel sorry that your situation is like that. Is most of America really like that? It scares me ... The area I live in is full of atheist immigrants who use churches as places for socializing.

It varies from city to city, but even in places where it isn't rampant, we're forced to "tolerate" the extremists. I once sent my son to a "summer day camp water park" that was hosted by a local church (on the recommendation of a friend). Once he was there, they put him into army clothes and had him wear "I love Jesus" dog tags. They told him he was a soldier in the army of god and that the kids at the camp would be training for "spiritual warfare." Needless to say, he did not go back a second time. Some normal people attended that church, even atheists like you mentioned, but the church leaders here are bonkers. It's brainwashing on a very large scale.

I live in Southern California, near the Mexican border. I would say the ratio here is 75/25 extremists to sane people. You go to downtown areas or further north to Los Angeles, and people are more progressive. San Francisco seems to have the least amount of zealots in the state. I've heard that education is greatly valued in Seattle, and that keeps extremism low. New York is progressive, but it's got people of all different religions and cultures, so it's hard to pinpoint a general attitude in the area.

The bible belt seems to be expanding here, with almost all of the "southern" states hosting billboards blasting outrage over abortion and birth control in the name of Christ love, interspersed with signs reading "NUDE GIRLS! NEXT EXIT!" I can't laugh enough about the bumperstickers. "I love Jesus and my GUN!"

Still, America is not as scary as I'm making it seem. "These people are cowards, Donnie," as Walter from The Big Lebowski would say. A lot of people have been frightened by the terrorist attacks on 9/11, and the increasingly shocking "news" the media puts forth. They want to feel safe. They want to think their relatives are waiting for them and they want to fight anyone who thinks otherwise. Some of it has been the result of funding cuts to schools across the nation. I still think people have room to change and grow. I'm optimistic that this ultra religious trend will fade here like so many other American fads. There are brilliant people here too. Scientists, writers, filmmakers, artists. I hope the world won't give up on us just yet.

[Paulclem]

I didn't realise it was like that so much in the US. We get an impression of the culture here, but that's the one put forward by the media and is perhaps focused on progressive cities like NY. It explains a lot.

[Vonny]

I'm at heart, Christian, so my comments aren't a criticism of Christianity.

Idaho is extremely religious. The false "Christianity" we have now is a fervor that the talk radio pundits have stirred up and figured out how to capitalize on, by "empowering" the common, ignorant individual and making ignorance a virtue. We face problems now that require some very intelligent/educated people to figure out, and the ignorant should be told to sit down and shut up, but talk radio pundits and the Fox News crowd put the issues into nutshells, and the ignorant feel very proud that they understand and can make the decisions, just as they understand that it doesn't matter how much we destroy the earth, because God will give us a new one.

I have no hope that anything will get better because as our educational system and economy continues to erode, people will reach for simple, pat answers and comfort.

[Varenne Rodin]

I'm at heart, Christian, so my comments aren't a criticism of Christianity.

Idaho is extremely religious. The false "Christianity" we have now is a fervor that the talk radio pundits have stirred up and figured out how to capitalize on, by "empowering" the common, ignorant individual and making ignorance a virtue. We face problems now that require some very intelligent/educated people to figure out, and the ignorant should be told to sit down and shut up, but talk radio pundits and the Fox News crowd put the issues into nutshells, and the ignorant feel very proud that they understand and can make the decisions, just as they understand that it doesn't matter how much we destroy the earth, because God will give us a new one.

I have no hope that anything will get better because as our educational system and economy continues to erode, people will reach for simple, pat answers and comfort.

Wow, Vonny. That's it exactly. Somehow this country turned ignorance into virtue. This is why we should not have been quite as "tolerant" as so many people demand. I'm not sure how to fix it either. So where to move to? The UK? France? Canada?