Exactly HOW is religion supposed to give meaning to life?

[Varenne Rodin]

Mandatory IQ tests for voting rights would probably decrease my dislike of modern Christians.

[BienvenuJDC]

Mandatory IQ tests for voting rights would probably decrease my dislike of modern Christians.

I'm thinking that your dislike for Christians has more to do with your own perspective and bias than their voting record. This is just another statement supporting Totalitarianism. Seems like you are wanting to silence the opposing viewpoints.

[Varenne Rodin]

I'm thinking that your dislike for Christians has more to do with your own perspective and bias than their voting record. This is just another statement supporting Totalitarianism. Seems like you are wanting to silence the opposing viewpoints.

You know what? No. That is false. I have never taken issue with someone's personal faith. My only grievance is that large blocks of church voters have forced poor judgment on our governing system. As I have said many times, this is a hindrance to progress. Perhaps some people have never met the kinds of Christians who don't care about the earth because they "believe there's a better life after this one," but those Christians do exist, and they have the loudest, most overbearing voice in America right now. I have to live as someone who values this planet, this life.

Thanks for the personal attack. I'm sure you'll get the thread closed now. Bummer.

If you were paying attention, you would perhaps notice that I have conceded something here. I LIKE Christians when they do not fall into the category of the extremely under-educated. Terrence Malick, for example, is one of my favorite directors. He's a brilliant Christian man and a far cry from the Jerry Springer group, of which you seem unacquainted. It's not totalitarianism to suggest that voters push themselves to be educated enough to qualify to have a vote. We force people to take driving tests before granting them driving licenses. Should we stop doing that? We have managers at companies go through all sorts of tests before granting them the power to make the big decisions. Should entry level people be skipped ahead to an executive level to avoid hurting their feelings?

[BienvenuJDC]

You know what? No. That is false. I have never taken issue with someone's personal faith. My only grievance is that large blocks of church voters have forced poor judgment on our governing system. As I have said many times, this is a hindrance to progress. Perhaps some people have never met the kinds of Christians who don't care about the earth because they "believe there's a better life after this one," but those Christians do exist, and they have the loudest, most overbearing voice in America right now. I have to live as someone who values this planet, this life.

Thanks for the personal attack. I'm sure you'll get the thread closed now. Bummer.

If you were paying attention, you would perhaps notice that I have conceded something here. I LIKE Christians when they do not fall into the category of the extremely under-educated. Terrence Malick, for example, is one of my favorite directors. He's a brilliant Christian man and a far cry from the Jerry Springer group, of which you seem unacquainted. It's not totalitarianism to suggest that voters push themselves to be educated enough to qualify to have a vote. We force people to take driving tests before granting them driving licenses. Should we stop doing that? We have managers at companies go through all sorts of tests before granting them the power to make the big decisions. Should entry level people be skipped ahead to an executive level to avoid hurting their feelings?

I'm sorry....where was the personal attack? I did not attack you at all. I don't agree with your perspective at all though. I could say the same thing about those who have the atheistic lean who put there faith in the own interpretive science. The theory of evolution is still just a theory...and I wish that it was not presented as fact. Evolution seems as far fetched to me as creation seems to atheists, and the evidence doesn't support it. I wish that the education system was not controlled by the liberal bias. I wish that our legislation wasn't so left leaning. Maybe we need both sides to keep the balance...instead of wishing that we could silence the one side. You think that the "religious" people need educated, well, maybe the atheists need just as much education (but not by an atheist institution like most of our universities are...)

[Paulclem]

To me, spirituality is mental illness. I have no problem with it if it does no harm.

What spirituality do you have experience of?

So are you going to respond? Your post implies that religious people/ spiritual people are mentally ill, and it is an interesting point.

[BienvenuJDC]

We don't get a lot of extremism shoved down our throats here in the UK. There are extreme sects, but they don't have any voice in any wide sense. Is it different in the US? We see idiotic pastors burning books and causing hurt at funerals etc on the news in the US, but not too much. We certainly don't have those religious channels.

Paul, in actuality, there isn't much extremism. I think that the problem is that due to an unscrupulous media, these religious nutcases get a stage. There are idiots who desire to burn Korans, and the media broadcasts it. There are morons who start protesting funerals, and the media broadcasts it. There are murderous hatemongers who kill abortion doctors, and the media broadcasts it.

In reality, the 98% (if not higher) of the Christians condemn these idiots as well. Should we judge all atheists based on the actions of the boys who shot all those people in the Columbine school because they were atheists?

[cl154576]

So are you going to respond? Your post implies that religious people/ spiritual people are mentally ill, and it is an interesting point.

It doesn't seem she was implying that, just using it as a comparison.

[G L Wilson]

To me, spirituality is mental illness. I have no problem with it if it does no harm.

What spirituality do you have experience of?

So are you going to respond? Your post implies that religious people/ spiritual people are mentally ill, and it is an interesting point.

I have experienced psychosis and must admit that spirituality looks and sounds the same. All I'm saying is, clinical psychosis must be a nightmare to diagnose.

[Varenne Rodin]

Evolution is not a theory. It clearly happened and is still happening. Whether someone created the original cells that organisms evolved from, I have no idea. Science has no idea. It doesn't claim to. We can't know what happened before anything in our universe existed. I can't believe people are STILL denying that adaptations occur. Do you understand at all why some viruses spontaneously become stronger than they ever were before? Have you ever seen a chameleon? Do we all look like cavemen to you? Do you also deny that dinosaurs existed? QED. Thanks, JDC.

[Paulclem]

Paul, in actuality, there isn't much extremism. I think that the problem is that due to an unscrupulous media, these religious nutcases get a stage. There are idiots who desire to burn Korans, and the media broadcasts it. There are morons who start protesting funerals, and the media broadcasts it. There are murderous hatemongers who kill abortion doctors, and the media broadcasts it.

In reality, the 98% (if not higher) of the Christians condemn these idiots as well. Should we judge all atheists based on the actions of the boys who shot all those people in the Columbine school because they were atheists?

I know what you mean about unscrupulous media. Varenne has a different take on it though. Is it a case of different areas and emphases? I haven't visited the US, but i understand it's size and diversity.

[BienvenuJDC]

Evolution is not a theory. It clearly happened and is still happening. Whether someone created the original cells that organisms evolved from, I have no idea. Science has no idea. It doesn't claim to. We can't know what happened before anything in our universe existed. I can't believe people are STILL denying that adaptations occur. Do you understand at all why some viruses spontaneously become stronger than they ever were before? Have you ever seen a chameleon? Do we all look like cavemen to you? Do you also deny that dinosaurs existed? QED. Thanks, JDC.

No, in fact, the dinosaurs are recorded in the Bible (long before our society discovered their existence. We have NEVER observed General Evolution, therefore we have no real evidence (even though some have loosely interpreted some things as evidence). However, there are some things referred to as Special Evolution that even the religious believe to be the case. But these cases of Special Evolution cannot explain adaptations that would change one "kind" of species into another "kind" of species. Therefore the theory (which really only ranks as a hypothesis) is not fact.

QED?

[Paulclem]

I have experienced psychosis and must admit that spirituality looks and sounds the same. All I'm saying is, clinical psychosis must be a nightmare to diagnose.

I'm sorry if you felt you had to say that GL. I wasn't trying to pry.

I understand the connection between mental illness and religion. We used to run meditation classes, and it did attract quite a few people with mental health issues. Most of them were trying to find a solution to a problem, but we couldn't help them. They needed medical assistance.

My wife also has experience of working with people with mental health issues in the National Health Service. She says that those she saw with serious problems often had religious fixations. It's very sad.

Having said that, the two are not the same. You can clearly make a distinction. That's the ones with serious, debilitating conditions. Obviously those who recover are somewhat different. I think the statistic in the UK is 1 in 4.

We often, as Buddhists, used to wonder at the karmic conditions that could result in a person pursuing religion but with a complete inability to engage with it. Imagine having what you percieve to be something you consider will help you in your hand but being unable to use it - in this case calming meditation? It's a bit like Tantalus. If there was hell on earth - and from what I've seen of some unfortunate people, you don't need to travel too far to find it - then that must be one of the frustrating hells. Just speculation though, and only referring to those with lifelong mental problems.

[G L Wilson]

Hell is in the mind and there is no such thing as heaven - that is how I would describe clinical psychosis.

[Delta40]

I don't see why the education system can't cover the theory of evolution AND the theory of creation. As I have said before, depsite our beliefs, the history of humankind has always had God(s) and puzzled endlessly about science. Why hide it?

[Paulclem]

Hell is in the mind and there is no such thing as heaven - that is how I would describe clinical psychosis.

I wouldn't dispute the hell in the mind idea. Awful, from what I've seen. I would also say there are physical hellish conditions that humans can endure too.

Heavens - (Buddhist view not Christian etc) - these are recorded in the stories of the Buddha. they are not an ultimate, final heaven, but a place where very fortunate beings go and live as Gods. They have to leave eventually though, which makes them part of our wheel of suffering life.

There are heavenly conditions on earth, but these are much more elusive and transient don't you think. Typical.