China incline USA decline?

[WICKES]

Infuriate is a strong word. Wickes, you seem to have a lot of misguided anger. That's Jermac's opinion (which happens to be quite accurate). America is a superpower not because of its physical size or population (I think China still has the largest population in the world) but the collective free, creative thinking of the population as a whole.

You say the anger is misguided, then you write that Jermac is quite right to say the USA is the most free, the most liberal etc. It's just nonsense. The rest of the world laughs at Americans over this sort of thing. They really do. Americans genuinely seem to think the USA is special. From what I can make out this seems to rest on two things in particular: first that it is the land of the 'free', of the 'most free' people and secondly that it is the land of opportunity, of the American dream. Of course the USA is free and is a land of opportunity, but it isn't the most free or the most meritocratic. That is all I am saying. People living in the following countries are just as free and have just as many rights and opportunities: Britain, France, Australia, New Zealand, Italy, Sweden, Denmark, Canada, Norway, Ireland, Belgium, Switzerland, Spain...I mean the list goes on. The truth is that many of these places are more democratic in real terms than the USA. As for the 'American Dream'/ opportunity I would argue that places like Sweden and the UK, with their strong welfare systems, provide greater chances for the weak and poor to better themselves.

As for being the most liberal, that is just absurd, I mean it is ridiculous to argue such a thing. For a start the USA is the only western nation to still execute people. It also denies homosexuals the right to legal partnerhips in many states. In fact, because of America's religious right, I would argue that places like Kansas and Texas and among the least liberal in the western world.

It's not that people hate Americans. I have met some lovely American people. What baffles the rest of the world is the (almost hysterical) self-congratulatory attitude. As if the rest of the world is living in hopeless slavery. It's just a simple fact that France, New Zealand, Australia, Switzerland etc are better places to live in almost every respect than most of the USA.

What is exceptional about the USA is its superpower status. When Britain was the great power in 1900 the British all thought there was something special about Britain. The USA is so powerful for a number of reasons: first its immense size and large population, secondly its head start over Asia in industrialising and thirdly its free market system. The rest of the
world is copying you and catching up. In 20 or 30 years China, then India will pass you by. Even the E.U and Russia will rival the USA. The signs are already there. The largest scientific experiment ever conducted, the 'Large Hadron Collidor' is taking place in Europe rather than the USA. The largest building in the world is no longer in the USA but in Dubai. It is going to be hard on the USA, adjusting to being just another nation, just as it was hard on the British when they lost their Empire.

[TheFifthElement]

You say the anger is misguided, then you write that Jermac is quite right to say the USA is the most free, the most liberal etc. It's just nonsense. The rest of the world laughs at Americans over this sort of thing. They really do. Americans genuinely seem to think the USA is special.

I think it's fine to think your country is special, most people do. It is good to have a sense of 'home' and that home is the place you most want to be and you love it and you're proud of it and you want to sing that to the world. I think that's better than hating everything and moaning about it, generally. But what some people don't seem to be able to do is to empathise with the receipient of that message. That when they're saying 'we're the special-est, we're the best, we're the most creative,' and so on, what the other person hears is 'I'm great and you're rubbish'. And it comes across as narcissistic, rude, and dismissive and what makes it worse is that it's generally ill informed. No one knows that much about anyone else's country, heck we can't even say that our lives are better than the life of the person sitting next to us on the bus! We all have different priorities, different goals, different dreams and motivations, and you can't really measure happiness or contentment or joy. You certainly can't measure creativity - how can you measure something which by it's very nature accepts no limits? So when someone makes a blanket statement that means 'I am better than you', and especially when that statement has nothing to do with what they individually have achieved or that which can be objectively measured against that which someone else has individually achieved, the other person tends to get angry about it, and then they insult the person that's saying they're so great and that person doesn't understand why. It is one of those reasons why we all need to think about what we say and how we say it, and consider the impact on the other person. Put yourself in the other person's shoes and imagine how you might feel if they said something similar and if you'd get hacked off maybe it's best not to say it. It's as bad to say 'we're the best', with the inherent dismissal of everyone else, as it is to say 'everyone else is laughing at you'. Neither is very productive or very fair or even very true.

In my experience I've met very creative and liberal and free Americans and very creative and liberal and free British people and Italians and Indians and Romanians and Moroccans and Malaysians and Thais and Australians and Spanish and French and Belgians and Dutch and Icelandic people. But as to making a judgement as to who is the 'most' free, or the 'most' creative or the 'most' innovative, that is just an impossible judgement. In order to make that kind of decision you would not only have to visit but to live in and experience life living in those other countries. You'd have to really absorb yourself in their culture. Otherwise you're just firing shots in the dark and it descends into this childish 'my country is better than your country...nyer nyer ner nyer nyer' discussions that makes everyone involved in it look terrible. Like this thread, really.

[Jozanny]

You say the anger is misguided, then you write that Jermac is quite right to say the USA is the most free, the most liberal etc. It's just nonsense. The rest of the world laughs at Americans over this sort of thing. They really do. Americans genuinely seem to think the USA is special. From what I can make out this seems to rest on two things in particular: first that it is the land of the 'free', of the 'most free' people and secondly that it is the land of opportunity, of the American dream. Of course the USA is free and is a land of opportunity, but it isn't the most free or the most meritocratic.

I have stayed out of this thread because a) it seems patently political and b) I have no idea why it is in General Writing, but what you are referring to, Wickes, is called American Exceptionalism. It suffered a major blow with 9/11 and died in spectacular fashion when Katrina destroyed New Orleans, though the country is sort of now suspended, waiting to see if our historic election bears any fruit.

But this is nothing new. The Roman Empire believed in its manifest destiny, and from what I am reading of Nial Ferguson, so did the modern European Empires of the 19th century, particularly the British Empire, without which the global power of the United States, nor the rise of modern India as a regional counter-weight, would have been possible.

I do not think China is the next superpower in waiting for the 21st century, because it does not have the constitutional entrenchments that run through the 5, 600 years or so of English/US human rights, which was a very long time in the making. China has thousands of years of corruption being tied to power, most of it imperial, and not much radically transformed by Mao's adaptations of Marxism, which is all but dead in the country, but not admitted, as such, precisely because they do not have the constitutional framework ingrained within social liberalism.

I could be wrong but don't think I am--which is not to say the global power the US wields is not in flux--I just don't believe China will inherit the wind.

[Dinkleberry2010]

this thread is beginning to repeat itself, which to me is a sign that's it's pretty well finished.

[Virgil]

See, this is now an argument about ethics. You think a government that levies 34% tax is no better than the mafia. I think that a government that fails to supply its citizens healthcare free at the point-of-delivery is no better than the Khmer Rouge.

Nothing is free. You are deluding yourself if you think what you get is free. No one in the US, whether you have insurance or not, is currently denied needed healthcare. And if you're implying that poor people aren't covered, then you don't understand the US healthcare system. Poor people are covered under medicaid. Whether the gov't steals your money and spits out benefits as it sees fit to spit out or whether we go and purchase it through our free choices is the difference in systems. I prefer the free system. I refuse to be a vassal to a gov't healthcare system.

[Jozanny]

No one in the US, whether you have insurance or not, is currently denied needed healthcare.

I was, and nearly wound up homeless because of it. Providers play hard ball with pre-existing conditions Virgil. It is frightening and can be life threatening.

[Virgil]

I was, and nearly wound up homeless because of it. Providers play hard ball with pre-existing conditions Virgil. It is frightening and can be life threatening.

I understand that. But anyone can walk into an emnergency room and even if they are in the country illegally will be treated.

And if he's implying that poor people aren't covered, then he doesn't understand our system. Medicaid covers the poor.

[Nietzsche]

Every nation ridicules other nations, and all are right. -- Arthur Schopenhauer.

That's the only comment I wish to make.

[Haunted]

You say the anger is misguided, then you write that Jermac is quite right to say the USA is the most free, the most liberal etc. It's just nonsense. The rest of the world laughs at Americans over this sort of thing. They really do. Americans genuinely seem to think the USA is special. From what I can make out this seems to rest on two things in particular: first that it is the land of the 'free', of the 'most free' people and secondly that it is the land of opportunity, of the American dream. Of course the USA is free and is a land of opportunity, but it isn't the most free or the most meritocratic. That is all I am saying. People living in the following countries are just as free and have just as many rights and opportunities: Britain, France, Australia, New Zealand, Italy, Sweden, Denmark, Canada, Norway, Ireland, Belgium, Switzerland, Spain...I mean the list goes on. The truth is that many of these places are more democratic in real terms than the USA. As for the 'American Dream'/ opportunity I would argue that places like Sweden and the UK, with their strong welfare systems, provide greater chances for the weak and poor to better themselves.

As for being the most liberal, that is just absurd, I mean it is ridiculous to argue such a thing. For a start the USA is the only western nation to still execute people. It also denies homosexuals the right to legal partnerhips in many states. In fact, because of America's religious right, I would argue that places like Kansas and Texas and among the least liberal in the western world.

It's not that people hate Americans. I have met some lovely American people. What baffles the rest of the world is the (almost hysterical) self-congratulatory attitude. As if the rest of the world is living in hopeless slavery. It's just a simple fact that France, New Zealand, Australia, Switzerland etc are better places to live in almost every respect than most of the USA.

What is exceptional about the USA is its superpower status. When Britain was the great power in 1900 the British all thought there was something special about Britain. The USA is so powerful for a number of reasons: first its immense size and large population, secondly its head start over Asia in industrialising and thirdly its free market system. The rest of the
world is copying you and catching up. In 20 or 30 years China, then India will pass you by. Even the E.U and Russia will rival the USA. The signs are already there. The largest scientific experiment ever conducted, the 'Large Hadron Collidor' is taking place in Europe rather than the USA. The largest building in the world is no longer in the USA but in Dubai. It is going to be hard on the USA, adjusting to being just another nation, just as it was hard on the British when they lost their Empire.

I skimped through this and I apologize. Much seems to be repetitive remarks, also it sounds a bit fired up for me to respond. There's nothing else I can contribute to a discussion based on presumptions, misinformation, fallacies, and one-dimensional, literal interpretation of terms. I have already debunked a few of your erroneous claims in an earlier post but I don't want to make it a career to explain how things really work in the real world.

There are those who willingly accept passed down stereotypes and perpetuate those views. Some even make things up to make these stereotypes stick. It's all fine by me. Especially if it makes them happy. The pursuit of happiness is one of our rights in the Declaration.

But what some people don't seem to be able to do is to empathise with the receipient of that message. That when they're saying 'we're the special-est, we're the best, we're the most creative,' and so on, what the other person hears is 'I'm great and you're rubbish'.

That's a tad dramatic. The statement doesn't lead to that conclusion. However, if a particular person feels that way, then maybe there's a psychological explanation to it, such as low self esteem. If one is that sensitive, then it's a personal problem and they should seek help.

In America we have a high tolerance of ideas different than ours, we don't get "infuriated" over a statement from others which we don't agree with. Yet another excellent example of why it's just so much better to be here.

[Jozanny]

I am guilty of skimming too, and I am sorry--partly lack of interest--but my point about historical sense of destiny within empire still holds. Goodness knows that China suffered from the same sort of tunnel vision in its regional hegemony.

[gbrekken]

don't know when, where, or how this got started or ended, but everlasting drops of sweet wisdom may last forever, regardless of opinion?

[MarkBastable]

Nothing is free. You are deluding yourself if you think what you get is free.

No - that's not what I said. I said free at the point-of-delivery.

In the last three years members of my extended family have gone to the National Health Service for:

•aches and pains and rashes and childhood complaints, all dealt with by ad hoc visits to the GP
•multiple domestic emergencies at ER - burns, broken bones, cuts and unspecific stomach ache
•macular degeneration - innumerable treatments and hospital visits
•childbirth in hospital, preceded by ultrasound scans, consultation and monitoring, and followed by home visits, care advice, and general post-natal support
•routine mammograms and cervical smears
•childhood innoculations
•paramedic call-out for a suspected heart attack
•haemorrhoidectomy
•prostate cancer - diagnosis, surgery, six weeks' radiotherapy, four-monthly tests thereafter for five years
•brain cancer - diagnosis, consultation, countless MRIs, five surgeries, extensive radiotherapy, six rounds of chemotherapy, counselling

None of this has cost a penny at the point of delivery. At no stage has anyone asked us about money - they've only asked us about the conditions and illnesses under consideration.

We have paid for this amazing service in our taxes, over many years. Had we not paid for it that way, I'm damned sure we couldn't have afforded insurance to cover all these eventualities.

And here's the great thing - they do all that for anyone, regardless of income. We all contribute to the pot, and we all get to take out what we need. That's exactly how insurance works of course, except that, in this system, no one says, "You've reached your limit - go home and suffer."

Of course, in America people stay in jobs they despise for no reason other than the health cover. They dare not get fired. They are in thrall to the corporation because they fear for the wellbeing of their families.

And you think we are serfs.

[Scheherazade]

R e m i n d e r

Please do not personalise your arguments.

Such posts will be deleted without any further notice.

[NikolaiI]

I understand that. But anyone can walk into an emnergency room and even if they are in the country illegally will be treated.

And if he's implying that poor people aren't covered, then he doesn't understand our system. Medicaid covers the poor.

Actually if you are poor in this country, poor enough that you don't make any money, there is a term for it I don't remember, but you get free medical care. I'm not sure if that's through medicaid or not.

[Virgil]

Actually if you are poor in this country, poor enough that you don't make any money, there is a term for it I don't remember, but you get free medical care. I'm not sure if that's through medicaid or not.

Nik, it's medicaid.

And you think we are serfs.

If you like it, keep it. I don't want it.