Christian morality? Morality has been around, and almost exactly the same as it is now, for much longer than Christianity has. If we were following Christian morality we would be going around casting plagues at infidels and killing our children.Originally Posted by Redzeppelin
The salvation of the world is in man's suffering. - Faulkner
I believe in God because there are good things and good people in the world.
I believe that if God didn't exist no one would ever act beyond their own natural instinct. They would live for the purpose of producing healthy offspring then die.
But because God exists, and because we are made in his image, we think, we feel, we learn, we create, we love. We have a purpose in life.
I just can't believe that we are all a coincidence, an accident. When you see a beautiful painting, or read an inspiring book, or hear an incredible song. How can the people who created these things - whether they believe in God or not - have simply been an accident?
Can you really look at someone you love dearly and tell them that they're here by accident, that it's all just a coincident that you ever met them?
That's why I believe in God, because any other concept just makes me feel worthless and hopeless.
She is too fond of books and it has addled her brainLouisa May AlcottHowever, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me- the task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace Acts 20:24It takes so little to make a child happy that it is a pity, in a world so full of sunshine and pleasant things, that there should be any wistful faces, empty hands, or lonely little hearts. Louisa May Alcott
I was really glad to read this, you wrote very well, and I would like to reply to your points. My understanding is very similar to yours. First I believe the entire material universe is actually manifested in Brahman. This is the first reason why so many sages throughout the world have identified a transcendent level being free from attachment or illusion, and thus being free; also free from pain and any kind of suffering. Plato identified this and called it coming into the light, from as if being chained in dark cave. There is more to his analogy, and if you follow it you see it is similar to Buddhist and Hindu ideas of maya, illusion, and enlightenment. Each of us is playing a role, but the role is an illusion, and we are illusioned to think that everything is acting upon us, giving us suffering, etc. I know it is an unpopular thing to say things are an illusion, but the illusion is this; we are illusioned into thinking we are matter, only material bodies, but actually we are spirit. Actually we come from spirit and God.
And so since we are illusioned, we have desires, and these desires make us come back into this world for birth and death.
So this talk of illusion, maya, and the material universe, but what does it mean, and is any of it true? I know there are those who may read this who will never agree with me, and that is fine. But since this is a public forum, I can only speak to everyone here. Since I am, I will ask a question of all of you. What is consciousness? Who am I? What is there? This last question I mean to explain as, "what is there in terms of the possible states of consciousness?" If we decide that we are consciousness, then we cannot know any existence other than consciousenss. And then comes the question, what exists besides consciousness? If nothing exists besides consciousness, then there is never anything besides consciousness. There is never "No consciousess." For if there is "No consciousness," then there is nothing at all, and it cannot be that there was never not anything. Time is a construct which comes from consciousness which has divided things into qualifications. Since time came after consciousnes; consciousness came before time and will remain after time. Consciousness before time would be the vegetative consciousness, but actually all consciousness came before time and exists after. Thus we see that consciousness is actually not affected by time.
The other part of the question is "what consciousness is there?" We know there is the consciousness of we, the humans, although we can tell that this does not mean anything, since there are infinite varieties or shades of this consciousness. We can delude our consciousness into more physical or vital consciousnesss, or we can come to the mental platform, or we can ascend into the spiritual or divine consciousness. Generally we are ignorant of the spiritual side, and we are only in the mental, which we dull to some degree in order to better enjoy physical consciousness. But actually we are eternal because although there infinite degrees of consciousness, all of them exist and none of them are unique or separate, and they all exist eternally.
We can know there are levels of consciousness above and below our own. On this website communicating with language, we are on a mental level. The other states would differ in what we designate them, but we generally see them coming from nothing and going toward the infinite. No consciousness would be rocks and other inanimate things. Notice that 99% of anything which exists is inanimate and not conscious. Then we know of bacteria and the most basic lifeforms, these are the lowest type of consciousness. Notice that this accounts for 99% of the variety and diversity of life on earth. Then after that there is vegative consciousness, plants, which covers a similar percentage of the complex life forms of consciousness. After plants are animals and then, most refined of all are humans. But is final premise correct? How do we know. In all our knowledge we have finally come to the conclusion that life is subjective. Have you ever seen a star-nosed mole? Have you seen geckos? There are near infinite varieties of life on earth and they understand the world with a similar array of devices, senses, or "windows." No wonder the most common operating system is "Windows."
Consider that dolphins have a greater brain than humans, in relationship to their body size. So why again do we think we are all-superior? It is a blindness. A separation from reality. There is no reason which we need to lord it over the whole world, and destroy other species'. I know I participate in it and I do not keep myself above or separate, but I am trying to explain another point. We are part of a collective consciousness of sorts; we are not supreme but we are only a part of the myriad, beautiful, collection.
Now, I come to one problem in what I am saying, which this. I am mixing and going interchangably between my own views and ideas, and those which I have picked up from others. When I speak of God or spirituality, I am being honest when I say I believe it is what exists, it is what is out there. I cannot emphasize any more when I say that I do believe all of this is true.
I used to be an atheist and I cannot imagine how I would guess if someone approached me this way, and asked me to try to understand what consciousness was, in this way. What I am trying to say is that there is divine consciousness. If there is supreme consciousness, then all comes from that supreme consciousness. We are not supreme, not in consciousness or within life on earth; although we are part of the supreme. We can only be conscious of ourselves individually, and cannot know what God knows. And yet-- we can dovetail our lives to the will of the supreme if we follow that will with love and devotion. There are specific modes for that path, which result in a reawakening of our divine consiciousness.
What is the divine? This has been discussed and worked out for the entire history of our race, perhaps even more. I have for a long time searched about spirituality and different things of this nature. Plato, perhaps, and Emerson, and many others have studied the Vedic scriptures from India, I have also studied these; and yet there are other mystics from all cultures who have understandings of the divine. They do not all speak the same language but if you understand them enough, they are communicating the same message. The first step in understanding the divine, which is the source of everything; including reason... is to understand that we are not matter, but spirit. I would perhaps get into this more but this is already lengthy enough, I realize...and there is time of course for this more.
One last point, and I know I will think more before I post again, is this... just because we do not understand the divine with our normal perceptions and thought consciousness, does not mean it does not exist. This is the primary point I would wish to press. In fact the divine cannot be understand with normal perceptions and consicousness. But just because we are particular consciousness - and that consciousness must be fully understood before anything else - this does not mean consciousnesses such as the divine do not exist. The spectrum of consciousness could be compared to the spectrum of light. We cannot see all light on the spectrum, but only certain kinds. In fact if we could see all of them we could not make any sense of it. The same is true with consciousness. We are socially required to follow a very rare path which is always afraid not to seem to conform. But actually we are connected to the same source of everything. We are not supreme at all but we are merely an infinitesimal part of a much greater, divine, supreme. I agree with laidbackperson in saying that our conceptions of time and space are way off, and they main came to exist after our associations with the body, based on desire for sense gratification.
I've studied many philosphers, poets, writers, etc., and I will never stop learning; and I also believe in God. I wrote a very long post which you may or may not wish to read any part of, but I also believe in God, the divine, who I think is both the supreme lord, and also the source of all the forms in the universe. All comes from the divine and it is only by misconceptions or perception that we think we doubt its existence. People are scared of the idea of God, but actually God is simply the divine Godhead, the source of love, perfection, and truth.
As I said in the other post; the general conception is that "rationality" reigns supreme, and there is nothing such as the soul or God; but in actuality, we are not supreme but rather we are part of the divine supreme; our efforts deny the divine are not denying something which is somehow not existant, but rather it is turning our back on the divine. I know I repeated that word because it is something which actually exists; the source of all love and all the material manifestation. Yes, when we look into what exists, and don't actually see a personal supreme god, we think that god may be unintelligent. But actually God, who is the divine source of everything, is way more powerful than an impersonal spiritual effulgence. But if we discovered that all was part of the spiritual effulgence we should not quit looking for it, actually we should be comforted and spread the message as much as possible that " You are not separate from the world, you will not cease to exist when you die, but rather you are part of that supreme whole and source, and you cannot have any shorter lifespan than the lifespan of the Whole. "
Cheers.
Last edited by NikolaiI; 01-25-2009 at 12:11 AM.
And what established this morality that has existed for so long, good Dr.?
Your absurd final sentence is almost beyond comment. Care to substantiate it a bit? Or would you rather just have it sit as it is - incomprehensible?
"I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else." - C.S. Lewis
I said I wouldn't return to this debate but I am. I am fickle.
Morality is generally inherited from a mixture of emotion and logic. Doesn't have to be from the bible, although it's impossible to ignore the bible as a massive cultural influence.
Last edited by JacobF; 01-25-2009 at 04:48 AM. Reason: long rambling post, figured i'd just post the core point
The bible does contain rules and regulations that God wants us to live, I believe it is one of the most important guide to life, the guide to how we can make most of life, and make it worthwhile. The bible contains also wisdom and virtue, something we should learn to become better people. The bible is a source of inspiration, strength, confidency and also of happiness and relief.
An Atheist cant be remarked as more creative than a Christian or any other religious follower. The only difference between a religious and an atheist is the choice of having faith or belief in God.
What do you mean by fresh approaches to fresh problems? How often does an atheist come across a fresh problem that the believer doesnt? There arent much choices for an atheist to solve a problem that a Christian cant do. Maybe committing sin to solve a problem may be one however, arent they the least of people that can recognise that leaving the problem the way it was is worthwhile than committing sin in attempting to solve it?
There is no "choice" involved: I can no more choose to believe in god(s) than I can shoose to believe in the tooth fairy. The only thing I suppose I could choose to do is to lie about it and say that I believe in god(s) when I don't.
Atheists don't have the notion of sin as a moral category as you seem to do. Atheists adhere to different moral codes or none (I know of at least people who claim to be nihilists). Since they don't recognise sin, they don't worry about committing it.[...]Maybe committing sin to solve a problem may be one however, arent they the least of people that can recognise that leaving the problem the way it was is worthwhile than committing sin in attempting to solve it?
Peace and loving kindness,
Z
I am sure there must be atheists who believe in sin. I am not saying the majority. But that it is not really important. But I agree with you. Atheists' moral code can vary from anything between nihilist and er, well, obviously anything.
I like to think that basic human nature established the morality we now hold.
Last edited by Dr. Hill; 01-25-2009 at 07:58 PM.
The salvation of the world is in man's suffering. - Faulkner
W a r n i n g
Posts containing inflammatory comments and ad hominem attacks will be deleted without any further warning.
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"It is not that I am mad; it is only that my head is different from yours.”
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Human nature is generally self-serving. It's primary goal is "taking care of #1." The default position for human nature is selfishness, not selflessness. Selfishness comes naturally; selflessness must be taught.
"I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else." - C.S. Lewis
taking care of #1 naturally involves taking note of #2,3,4,5,....in that being good to others brings good my way by way of people treating me dandy since i did them dandy. smart selfishness mirrors selflessness.
Last edited by billyjack; 01-26-2009 at 12:51 PM.
I can't make sense of an atheist believing in sin at all I'm afraid. I suppose you might make "sin" just mean "doing wrong" and that would work. I don't think an atheist's moral code can include anything - at least not coherently. It can't include "This is wrong because god said so" for example, without being nonsense.
Peace and loving kindness
Z
Well, if it's just a matter of having a higher authority to tell you what's right or wrong, most of us live in country's that do that for us through their legal systems.
The question is, if you're just doing things because a higher authority told you to, does that constitute a moral code? I would have thought a moral code would be something based on your sense of what was actually right and wrong, not just what you'd been told was right and wrong. This sense of right and wrong can be worked out through reason of the sort billyjack was engaging in in the post above yours and through empathy, e.g. I don't like to hurt others because I know what it's like to feel bad.
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