D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

[Janine]

Very nice, Virgil, you know I love illustrations. My aunt took that same mull ride in the canyon and loved it. I think this is sort of how I envisioned the story, but maybe not as barren of rocky. New Mexico is a little different, isn't it? or am I wrong? I guess I pictured more forest or more aspen trees. I have to check the text again. These photos are great though and still you do get the idea of the climb...which would be treacherous. I will comment on what you said tomorrow. Too tired out now. Thanks for posting those.

Did you ever see the photos of Lawence's ranch? I have some from the net and they are very cool...also the country around the ranch.

[Virgil]

Yes I have seen pictures of Lawrence's ranch, and I think you are right, Northern New Mexico is probably more wooded than the Grand Canyon. I have never been to northern New Mexico.

[Dark Muse]

It feels like I am never going to get caught back up with this story but I will try later tonight

[Janine]

It feels like I am never going to get caught back up with this story but I will try later tonight

Cheerup; I feel that way, too.....

[Dark Muse]

I agree the passages describing the journey were quite beautiful, as well as being very vivid, and using some wonderful phrases.

I myself agree with Janine that for The Princess, the trip never really was about getting to see wild animals. I think it was her intent to be alone with Romero, and though ultimately she did get what she wanted, things did not turn out as she would have suspected. But then I am not sure she really had a clear idea as to just what she expected or even wanted to happen on the trip. I think in some ways she was being more or less led or guided by her demon without really thinking it all through.

Interesting how Romero's demon-ness comes out and the that for the second paragraph in a row blood is mentioned.

That is an interesting point, I had not noticed that before, but the sight of blood is what brings out his demon-ness here. And though it has been discussed that the "demon" is not truly something evil, Romero's demon is a rather savage one.

The incident with the horse does work in the way of foreshadow. I think this section as lots of occurrences of foreshadow within it.

This struck me as quite ironical, and after reading it a second, knowing how the story turns out, it made me chuckle.

"Very well. We won't begin to be anxious about you before Thursday, then," said Mrs. Wilkieson, who was young and capable: from Chicago. "Anyway," she added, "Romero will see you through. He's so trustworthy."

This line also seemed to be quite interesting and a bit of foreshadowing

For the rest, he held ahead. And the Princess, with that black, unheeding figure always travelling away from her, felt strangely helpless, withal elated

The other thing which I found quite amusing, was the idea of Romero riding upon the black steed, decked out in black clothing, as the opposite to the cliche of heroes often being presented upon white stallions. And the "knight in shinning armor"

As at the start Romero appears to almost be the sort of "savior" for The Princess, they have a connection and are drawn to each other, and both enjoy the outdoors, they could have made a well matched couple but in the end he ends up being a sort of mock hero, who rather puts the damsel in distress rather then saving her.

The idea of him being portrayed as this sort of anti-knight/hero and her being commonly known as "The Princess" when in she is in fact not a literal princess is all quite ironical.

Even if the plot could have been kept the same if Miss C was not included at all, I think if she was left out completely of this scene, instead of sort of wheedled out, it could have changed the perception of the story, if The Princess from the beginning set out completely alone with Romero without any escort. It would have perhaps made her motives more obvious and taken away any veneer of possible "innocence" in the trip, as well as make The Princess look as if she had intentionally set out to seduce Romero.

[Quark]

Those are nice images, Virgil. None of them have that lurid glow which Lawrence keeps describing, though. I guess it would have to dusk for that.

Even if the plot could have been kept the same if Miss C was not included at all, I think if she was left out completely of this scene, instead of sort of wheedled out, it could have changed the perception of the story, if The Princess from the beginning set out completely alone with Romero without any escort. It would have perhaps made her motives more obvious and taken away any veneer of possible "innocence" in the trip, as well as make The Princess look as if she had intentionally set out to seduce Romero.

The Miss C episodes is interesting. I still don't quite know what we're supposed to take away from it. I think you're right that it obscures Dollie's motives, and makes her appear more "innocent." But, is there more?

Oh, and Janine, I got the CDs from you today. Thanks, I'll listen to them on my trip to Michigan next week.

[Dark Muse]

You also have to consider the time period in which the story was written in. In which it would have been completely unthinkable for a girl to go off with a man without any form of an escort, as well Dollie's family would likely not have approved of the trip if Miss C were not beleive to be present during it. And the incident with her horse provides an opperutnity for some foreshadow. I am not quite sure the episode with her is meant to have some deep symbolic meaning. It just helps stage the plot a little.

[Janine]

I agree the passages describing the journey were quite beautiful, as well as being very vivid, and using some wonderful phrases.

I agree...such lovely passages, and so vivid. I do think some of the best Lawrence has written of nature or the mountain terain. I also liked the fact it was set in the fall; wasn't it set in autumn? The idea of leaves lightly falling seemed significant to me....autumn always gives way to winter and the coldness and this would symbolise a sort of death, especially to Lawrence. Remember he gravitated towards the south and the sunlight. This is just opposite - up, up to the heights where it becomes brutal and cold, especially at in the dead of night, the time of no sunlight.

I myself agree with Janine that for The Princess, the trip never really was about getting to see wild animals. I think it was her intent to be alone with Romero, and though ultimately she did get what she wanted, things did not turn out as she would have suspected. But then I am not sure she really had a clear idea as to just what she expected or even wanted to happen on the trip. I think in some ways she was being more or less led or guided by her demon without really thinking it all through.

I still agree also and have some passages to submit that I think are significant to it. Here is the part when The Princess describing the way in which the father allowed the Princess to view men, both in books and in real life. Remember he is first ingraining in her pysche these ideas about men.

[QUOTE]Her father let her see the world--from the outside. And he let her read. When she was in her teens she read Zola and Maupassant, and with the eyes of Zola and Maupassant she looked on Paris. A little later she read Tolstoi and Dostoevsky. The latter confused her. The others, she seemed to understand with a very shrewd, canny understanding, just as she understood the Decameron stories as she read them in their old Italian, or the Nibelung poems.

Strange and uncanny, she seemed to understand things in a cold light perfectly, with all the flush of fire absent.

She was something like a

changeling, not quite human

.

You did bring this "changeling" thing up awhile ago, Dark Muse. If you read the lines preceeding it, you can see that she knew of men in stories but she probably had a distorted view of them, as well...so that the statement that I bolded up really makes perfect sense "...she seemed to understand things in a cold light perfectly, with all the flush of fire absent."

This earned her, also, strange antipathies. Cabmen and railway porters, especially in Paris and Rome, would suddenly treat her with brutal rudeness, when she was alone. They seemed to look on her with sudden violent antipathy. They sensed in her curious impertinence, an easy, sterile impertinence towards the things they felt most. She was so assured, and her flower of maidenhood was so scentless. She could look at a lusty, sensual Roman cabman as if he were a sort of grotesque, to make her smile. She knew all about him, in Zola. And the peculiar condescension with which she would give him her order, as if she, frail, beautiful thing, were the only reality, and he, coarse monster, was a sort of Caliban floundering in the mud on the margin of the pool of the perfect lotus, would suddenly enrage the fellow, the real Mediterranean who prided himself on his beauté male, and to whom the phallic mystery was still the only mystery. And he would turn a terrible face on her, bully her in a brutal, coarse fashion--hideous. For to him she had only the blasphemous impertinence of her own sterility.

Here we see she does have the knowledge of men and the phallic ("She knew all about him, in Zola") but she is cool and aloof with them; this drives these very sexually alive men wild; how different is this from the outcome of the story. This part definitely forshadows the coming events, and deflating of Romeros pride and his manhood; both being connected to this type of Mediterranean man "who prided himself on this beauté male, and to whom the phallic mystery was still the only mystery."

Encounters like these made her tremble, and made her know she must have support from the outside. The power of her spirit did not extend to these low people, and they had all the physical power. She realised an implacability of hatred in their turning on her. But she did not lose her head. She quietly paid out money and turned away.

"support from outside" - that line is interesting. I guess she would have had support from Miss Cummins if the had not retreated to return home. Now she has not outside support; she only has herself and she is totally left vulnerable for the first time in her life. What a shock that much be. Then the next statement says the low people had all the physical power. She did not have this power either, only the power of her spirit which is not match for the physical strength of a man. "..she did not lose her head"...sort of forshadows the moment she does lose her head and allow Romero in her bed, then she immediately wants to regain her control.

That is an interesting point, I had not noticed that before, but the sight of blood is what brings out his demon-ness here. And though it has been discussed that the "demon" is not truly something evil, Romero's demon is a rather savage one.

The incident with the horse does work in the way of foreshadow. I think this section as lots of occurrences of foreshadow within it.

Not sure what you mean here. I kind of do see the horse incident as significant foreshadowing; in that one can't always have control over everything, especially when it concerns nature.

This struck me as quite ironical, and after reading it a second, knowing how the story turns out, it made me chuckle.

Yes, it does do that...have that effect, after knowing the ending.

This line also seemed to be quite interesting and a bit of foreshadowing

Yes, good line to point out. I agree with you.

The other thing which I found quite amusing, was the idea of Romero riding upon the black steed, decked out in black clothing, as the opposite to the cliche of heroes often being presented upon white stallions. And the "knight in shinning armor"

Well, again the black is definitely foreshadowing the outcome of the story - black, night, sleep, death....the black seems entirely right to me...true that when considering the idea of a princess white would represent her ideal prince, but something inside her is drawn to his inner demon and it turns out that is dark, mysterious, night, death, blood consciousness, phallic mystery...all those rolled into one. As people are drawn to a dark side so is the princess even though she can't fully embrass it or accept it.

As at the start Romero appears to almost be the sort of "savior" for The Princess, they have a connection and are drawn to each other, and both enjoy the outdoors, they could have made a well matched couple but in the end he ends up being a sort of mock hero, who rather puts the damsel in distress rather then saving her.

That is good - a mock hero. However, I think probably to Lawrence he is a lot more. He definitely represents many of L's darker ideas of man.

The idea of him being portrayed as this sort of anti-knight/hero and her being commonly known as "The Princess" when in she is in fact not a literal princess is all quite ironical.

Yes, I agree that it is. I think Lawrence knew that and he often wrote things ironically. I think the demon is a big part of this with Romero. If you read this passage again you see what her father told her about the demon and if you read this now with Romero in-mind and the ending it makes more sense.

"My little Princess must never take too much notice of people and the things they say and do," he repeated to her. "People don't know what they are doing and saying. They chatter-chatter, and they hurt one another, and they hurt themselves very often, till they cry.

Isn't that precisely what actually happens to The Princess? Romero is hurt and so is she. He is more so perhaps but he shows only force after that and male power; but then eventually he shows violence. "The hurt one another".

But don't take any notice, my little Princess. Because it is all nothing. Inside everybody there is another creature, a demon which doesn't care at all. You peel away all the things they say and do and feel, as cook peels away the outside of the onions. And in the middle of everybody there is a green demon which you can't peel away. And this green demon never changes, and it doesn't care at all about all the things that happen to the outside leaves of the person, all the chatter-chatter, and all the husbands and wives and children, and troubles and fusses. You peel everything away from people, and there is a green, upright demon in every man and woman; and this demon is a man's real self, and a woman's real self. It doesn't really care about anybody, it belongs to the demons and the primitive fairies, who never care. But, even so, there are big demons and mean demons, and splendid demonish fairies, and vulgar ones

.

This really explains the demon idea....they seem to be a variety of demons out there....however,

But there are no royal fairy women left. Only you, my little Princess. You are the last of the royal race of the old people; the last, my Princess. There are no others. You and I are the last. When I am dead there will be only you. And that is why, darling, you will never care for any of the people in the world very much. Because their demons are all dwindled and vulgar. They are not royal. Only you are royal, after me. Always remember that. And always remember, it is a great secret. If you tell people, they will try to kill you, because they will envy you for being a Princess. It is our great secret, darling.

Wow, those lines are really significant...first he keeps impressing upon her the idea that they are royal and others are not. Then he sys he is the prince and she the princess....."You and I are the last" - that makes it even more special and significant, so they have to carry on the tradition of being the royal race. "Oh heavy burden"...Shakespeare....geez, but truly it is for The Princess in the end...."When I am dead there will be only you."...that is really sad if you think about it.

"their demons are all dwindled and vulgar"...."they are not royal..."...the contast is stark.

I am a prince, and you a princess, of the old, old blood. And we keep our secret between us, all alone. And so, darling, you must treat all people very politely, because noblesse oblige. But you must never forget that

you alone are the last of Princesses, and that all other are less than you are, less noble, more vulgar.

Treat them politely and gently and kindly, darling. But you are the Princess, and they are commoners. Never try to think of them as if they were like you. They are not. You will find, always, that they are lacking, lacking in the royal touch, which only you have--"

This perfectly describes her attitude towards Romero. "Treat them politely and gently and kindly, darling."....

Even if the plot could have been kept the same if Miss C was not included at all, I think if she was left out completely of this scene, instead of sort of wheedled out, it could have changed the perception of the story, if The Princess from the beginning set out completely alone with Romero without any escort. It would have perhaps made her motives more obvious and taken away any veneer of possible "innocence" in the trip, as well as make The Princess look as if she had intentionally set out to seduce Romero.

That is an interesting premise. I think you are right to some degree. Why was she taking along Miss Cummins but then it had stated she had gone with them before. Now as fate had it and the horse became injured or lame then Romero did say that would all go back; but still The Princess pushed him to take her onward. She was pretty determined at that point and was not willing to let go of the idea of going on.

[Virgil]

Here we see she does have the knowledge of men and the phallic ("She knew all about him, in Zola") but she is cool and aloof with them; this drives these very sexually alive men wild; how different is this from the outcome of the story. This part definitely forshadows the coming events, and deflating of Romeros pride and his manhood; both being connected to this type of Mediterranean man "who prided himself on this beauté male, and to whom the phallic mystery was still the only mystery."

I completely disagree Janine. Lawrence detested "book knowledge." For him to call her knowledge of sexuality as derived from books is ironic and really what he means is that she has no real knowledge. For all she knows Romero is some character from a book, but which character? A knight in shining armor who has platonic love or something else? But it doesn't matter. What she doesn't see is that Romero is a flesh and blood man who is very close to the earth, to phallic consciousness, and that's not in a book.

[Janine]

I completely disagree Janine. Lawrence detested "book knowledge." For him to call her knowledge of sexuality as derived from books is ironic and really what he means is that she has no real knowledge. For all she knows Romero is some character from a book, but which character? A knight in shining armor who has platonic love or something else? But it doesn't matter. What she doesn't see is that Romero is a flesh and blood man who is very close to the earth, to phallic consciousness, and that's not in a book.

Maybe you need to read Zola....but actually I do see your point and yes, she definitely does have a distorted view of Romero and other men. I agree with this part, and if you wish, you can label that naive. It is not total naivity but it somewhat naive; in a way it is fantasy...it is not a real experience when learned about in a book and not first hand. She had not true contact with men sexually so she was indeed naive to what that truly means or entails. However, I think she envisioned a whole different type experience with Romero. I think she did egg him on at parts of the story. She just did not realise to what extend, she was egging him on. Her father did create for her an 'unreal world', one very fairy-like, princess-like, concerning men; this was exactly what I was trying to point out. Her thinking is totally distorted and unreal. It is strange she should hate Dostoyevski most; we just read "The Idiot" on here, in which the woman is very much out of the realm of reality; yet she is princess-like, admired by all the men she meets, sought after by many, but also ruins so many lives along her path in life. I found Lawrence reference to D's work of interest.

[Virgil]

Maybe you need to read Zola....but actually I do see your point and yes, she definitely does have a distorted view of Romero and other men. I agree with this part, and if you wish, you can label that naive. It is not total naivity but it somewhat naive; in a way it is fantasy...it is not a real experience when learned about in a book and not first hand. She had not true contact with men sexually so she was indeed naive to what that truly means or entails. However, I think she envisioned a whole different type experience with Romero. I think she did egg him on at parts of the story. She just did not realise to what extend, she was egging him on. Her father did create for her an 'unreal world', one very fairy-like, princess-like, concerning men; this was exactly what I was trying to point out. Her thinking is totally distorted and unreal.

Now we agree.

It is strange she should hate Dostoyevski most; we just read "The Idiot" on here, in which the woman is very much out of the realm of reality; yet she is princess-like, admired by all the men she meets, sought after by many, but also ruins so many lives along her path in life. I found Lawrence reference to D's work of interest.

I must have missed that. Where is Doestevski mentioned? What page?

[Janine]

Now we agree.

Somewhat but not entirely...but that's a start..

I must have missed that. Where is Doestevski mentioned? What page?

In this paragraph,

Her father let her see the world--from the outside. And he let her read. When she was in her teens she read Zola and Maupassant, and with the eyes of Zola and Maupassant she looked on Paris. A little later she read Tolstoi and Dostoevsky. The latter confused her. The others, she seemed to understand with a very shrewd, canny understanding, just as she understood the Decameron stories as she read them in their old Italian, or the Nibelung poems. Strange and uncanny, she seemed to understand things in a cold light perfectly, with all the flush of fire absent. She was something like a changeling, not quite human.

I thought I had already quoted this a few posts back. I don't know now....too confusing.

[Dark Muse]

She does not really say that she hates Dostoevsky though

[Janine]

She does not really say that she hates Dostoevsky though

Right, it just says "The latter confused her."...oh, sorry my mistake on the earlier post...right she was just confused by the author; perhaps she could not relate.

[Virgil]

Oh yes, you did point thaat out and I do remember. I think she's confused by Dostevsky because he's also anti intellectual and captures a blood vitality.