The Winter's Tale - Act I

[Scheherazade]

Humm is that waht leads to what happens soon do you think ? The time period?

I think it is one of the factors that make Leon suspicious.

It seems the discussion is going along well. I am anxious to read more of the pages and post some comments - ones I have been thinking of when I am at home but don't have the time to write in this forum presently; they close at 9*frown*. So see you all next week!

Enjoy your break, Janine! Hope you can sort out the problems soon!

[Janine]

Just popping in quickly - the darn library closes now in a half hour. Silly since you would think it would be open on Friday night to keep the kids off the streets. Thanks everyone for you thumbs up. I actually have listened to the entire play now and hope to post some comments next week if I can fit it in. I am still considering what to do about a new computer. I was out looking; it all just takes time, right? I was sorry most of all to be missing this discussion. I even bought the play on DVD but I have not watched that yet - maybe this weekend. It should make the play clearer to me. Thanks Scher and thanks Sophia for you considerate/encouraging words.

The play progresses very quickly, doesn't it? I think that Leonettes goes from being so mean and unreasonable to his being sorry pretty rapidly. I guess when this play was first shown on stage in the Globe Theater, it had to progress rapidly to keep the attention of the audience. I do think this play draws one into the story quickly. The poor judgement of Leonettes does drive the plot from the beginning and rapidly all the other tragedies ensue.

Does anyone know at what time in Shakespeare's career/life this play was written?

It is an interesting play and one that is great to discuss. Be back next week with some more specific thoughts. Glad things are not progressing too quickly so that most likely I can catch up.

[DapperDrake]

Unfortunately, I might have to sit this one out; I am at my library now and they will close down in a few minutes - computer woes - Virgil can fill you all in on my troubles. I won't be able to post again until Monday unless someone can fix my problems on my PC. They are truly dire.

Janine if your computer is at all fixable then the chaps over at tech forums can probably help

http://www.tech-forums.net/pc/

I am one of those chaps on occasion , seriously though they have a very good security team if you have problems with viruses, the windows forum and the hardware forum are a bit more hit and miss but still not bad.

Back on topic, I haven't read the whole play yet but I haven't gotten the impression that Leontes irrational behaviour is anything more than jealously - jealously can be very powerful and personally I can fully believe the scenario, sounds like classic jealousy in fact. jealousy is a violent, bitter, vengeful emotion which can be quite cold blooded like hate.

[Quark]

Back on topic, I haven't read the whole play yet but I haven't gotten the impression that Leontes irrational behaviour is anything more than jealously - jealously can be very powerful and personally I can fully believe the scenario, sounds like classic jealousy in fact. jealousy is a violent, bitter, vengeful emotion which can be quite cold blooded like hate.

Hi, DapperDrake. How's the reading going so far? I think most of us are on Act II or III right now, but I'm sure you'll catch up. After all, Act II is very short.

As for jealousy, it was much discussed in the Act I discussion--though I'm not sure if we reached a consensus about it. We can say with some certainty that, yes, jealousy causes his behavior; however, the question that was argued over was whether his jealousy is innate or the result of his susceptibility to momentary impressions. Does that make any sense? The disagreement is over whether Leontes is just naturally jealous, or whether certain characteristics of Leontes make him susceptible to jealousy. It may seem like this argument is rather unimportant, but I think it actually has a large impact on how we interpret the rest of the play. I prefer to think of Leontes jealousy as caused by other traits in the King himself. Specifically, I look at his weakness of character which makes him susceptible to any thought that enters his head. In Act II he will say "I am a feather for each wind that blows" (ii, 154), and that is quite telling. It makes it seem like his thoughts are consumed by whatever slight impressions he receives. He becomes jealous then because his uncontrollable mind yields to a few suspicious interactions between Hermione and Polixenes. He isn't just a naturally jealous person.

[DapperDrake]

Hi, DapperDrake. How's the reading going so far? I think most of us are on Act II or III right now, but I'm sure you'll catch up. After all, Act II is very short.

Reading is going slowly I'm about 1/2 way through Act II I think but I wanted to voice some opinions about Act I first.

Specifically, I look at his weakness of character which makes him susceptible to any thought that enters his head. In Act II he will say "I am a feather for each wind that blows" (ii, 154), and that is quite telling. It makes it seem like his thoughts are consumed by whatever slight impressions he receives. He becomes jealous then because his uncontrollable mind yields to a few suspicious interactions between Hermione and Polixenes. He isn't just a naturally jealous person.

"I am a feather for each wind that blows"

Yes this is about where I'm up to, but I simply take it that he's commenting on his surrender to his jealousy, he's saying that he cannot reason because his will is taken off by jealousy. (jealousy the wind and his will the feather)
My interpretation (bear in mind I'm only up to Act II Scene III) is that this is a simple tale of jealously with little else to be read into it from a motivational point of view.
I would say Leontes has been brooding over his jealously for months, its been gently simmering under the surface and then in act 1 scene 2 we see the trigger that causes his jealousy to boil over into a full passion.

later on in scene 2 where Leontes is talking to Camillo, lines 281-305, where Leontes describes the basis of his jealousy to Camillo I think clearly demonstrates that the jealousy precedes the start of the play.
I think that is also born out by the coldness with which Leontes asks Polixenes to stay another week - he's just observing the forms of hospitality and doesn't actually want Polixenes to stay, Hermione brings him up on it "You, Sir, charge him too coldly". Also I would say leontes preceding line is sarcastic "Tongue-tied, our queen? Speak you." - he's expecting her to come in an plead with Polixenes to stay because he suspects her infidelity.

In 1.2 lines 13-14 Polixenes says "Besides, I have stayed to tire your royalty.", I think this shows Polixenes has recognised that Leontes is off with him though it doesn't necessarily indicate that he knows the reason why.

So I think its safe to conclude that Leontes is not merely reacting to a momentary impression but has in fact been incubating a violent jealousy for an extended period, his queen entreating Polixenes to stay and then Polixenes agreeing to stay are the final straws and focus his feelings on the two of them.

[Quark]

Reading is going slowly I'm about 1/2 way through Act II I think but I wanted to voice some opinions about Act I first.

That's okay. I'd like to talk about Act I more anyway. It's the best of the first three, I think.

"I am a feather for each wind that blows"

Yes this is about where I'm up to, but I simply take it that he's commenting on his surrender to his jealousy, he's saying that he cannot reason because his will is taken off by jealousy.

I don't know. If he were trying to indicate just his jealousy here, he wouldn't say "each" wind. More likely, he would say "the" wind. "Each" gives the idea that he would yield to any kind of influence, not just one specific influence.

later on in scene 2 where Leontes is talking to Camillo, lines 281-305, where Leontes describes the basis of his jealousy to Camillo I think clearly demonstrates that the jealousy precedes the start of the play.

But at least some part of what Leontes says in that speech must be made up. He can't possibly have seen all this. Does he know her thoughts? Have they really been "kissing with inside lip?" The king is clearly making some stuff up here. Who's to say he isn't inventing everything in this speech? Very little of what Leontes claims can be believed after he becomes paranoid.

I think if we're to find a basis for Leontes's jealousy we need to look at that part just after the hand clasp. Here, Leontes is either speaking in an aside or talking to Mamillus which is almost aside since Mamillus doesn't know what Leontes is talking about. This part gives us a look into Leontes's mind better than any other part. It's a moment of self-contemplation for Leontes, and it marks the beginning of his paranoia. It makes sense to look here for the basis of his madness since Leontes is doing the same at this point. What he says is very helpful, too:

Affection! thy intention stabs the centre.
Thou dost make possible things not so held,
Communicat'st with dreams (how can this be?),
With what's unreal thou co-active art,
And fellow'st nothing. (I, ii, 138-142)

This makes it sound like he's merely imagining much of what he supposes Hermione and Polixenes are doing. The fact that he's giving in to this kind of thinking appears to be his problem. Later in the play we'll see that he does this with another feeling. Rather than jealousy, he'll get carried away with something else.

So I think its safe to conclude that Leontes is not merely reacting to a momentary impression but has in fact been incubating a violent jealousy for an extended period, his queen entreating Polixenes to stay and then Polixenes agreeing to stay are the final straws and focus his feelings on the two of them.

It is possible that Leontes has been harboring jealous thoughts since before the play. It's also possible that they started in the first hundred lines of the play. We're told almost nothing of their past. Hermione charges Leontes of being too "cold" in his offer to Polixenes, but I don't think she means that Leontes was being chilly toward his friend. It means more that Leontes didn't pursue his point with enough vigor. That isn't overwhelming evidence that Leontes thinks Polixenes is sleeping with his wife. Leontes in general is a weaker character than his wife, and it would make sense that he wouldn't pursue his argument with Polizenes with the strength that his wife would.

Moreover, the time of origin for Leontes's jealousy doesn't change the above point. I know I used the word "momentary" in my last post, but really all I meant was weak or small. It's not necessarily that Leontes is giving into a "momentary" impression--although, he could be--it's that he's yielding to a "weak" impression. It's the act of yielding to his jealousy that's important, and not the jealousy itself. The quote above shows how a feeling can be blown out of proportion, and that's what Leontes is doing.

[Janine]

So what happened to the discussion? I will have to catch up and see what I can add. I just reviewed by watching the screen presentation of the play by the RSC - very good; you can all view photos of the production and others on this play, in the Shakespeare Stage and Screen Pictures thread.

[wilbur lim]

Inevitably Shakespeare's works is too intricate if it is written in original text.Modern text will alleviate the problems.I cannot comprehend at all if it is in original text.My head churned immediately.

[Janine]

Inevitably Shakespeare's works is too intricate if it is written in original text.Modern text will alleviate the problems.I cannot comprehend at all if it is in original text.My head churned immediately.

Sorry to hear that. I don't really have that problem now since I have read a good deal of his plays and his sonnets. It is certainly true the language can be a bit daunting for some. I had more trouble when I was younger and usually would rely on some audio recordings to understand just what was going on. I think some of the old English lingo and language is difficult because we can't fully comprehend all of it's meaning in today's world. Like it took me a great while to know what the words in the famous Hamlet speach refer to 'a bare botkin" - alas, I finally broke down and looked up the word and it meerly means 'a small unsheathed dagger'..duh for me.. Like how many times, had I heard the phrase and just skipped over it.

But basically, what I am trying to say, is the more you read or hear Shakespeare, the more it all sinks in and you get into the flow of the language and poetry of the plays. Try giving it another go maybe.

Sorry to say that I have failed miserably so far, with posting in this play discussion. I have no excuse at all, except being overwhelmed generally, at the present time. I did read the play, watch the video of the stage production twice and listen twice to the audio CD's, so you would think that I came her prepared. I have been hopeless here; but hope to make some worthwhile comments eventually. Here is something for now:

I think there is definitely precise text to show just what feeds Leonete's jealously and impending rage towards his wife and friend. It starts with her urging the other king to stay on and she does it in a very playful lighthearted mannor, much like flirting. There are key words in this section that would cause the Leonetes to have his own views on what they are talking about between them; of course he has twisted their words around to his own interpretations. Also Leontes blows the whole thing way out of proportion, but it seems that once set on that course, he can't stop his actions - they are like a chain of events spiralling him and his family downward. He is caught up in this violent tornado of over-sensitive perceptions and his own confluted temperament. Once the wife does not immediately say when the 'other time was' that she had shown as brightly to Leonetes, referring to the time that she gave into his advances and became betrothed to the L, then Leonetes goes wild with rage and jealousy - one can clearly see his sudden change in attitude and his suspicions taking form in his mind. He is totally wounded - the old 'male ego' thing is bruised and he feels underminded by his good friend and that his wife must be quilty of betraying him, by her unfaithfulness.

[Petrarch's Love]

Hi guys. Sorry to have pretty much missed what looks like a fun discussion of Winter's Tale. I've posted some thoughts on the play in response to the act I discussion on my blog http://www.online-literature.com/forums/blog.php?b=6338. Hope something in there can be of interest to someone. Cheers.

[Janine]

Always good to read what you have to add to the discussion, Petrarch. I recalled you saying you would comment eventually. The forum seems to have been a bit slow these two months, probably due to vacations and then classes starting.
I am going now to read your blog post. Glad you could comment. I admit that I whimped out quite a bit on this discussion. I had a hard time keeping up last month while changing over to a new computer and windows version. I don't have any further excuse because I was well prepared having seen the play on DVD performed 2 times and listening 2 twice to the audio CD's. It was just bad timing for me unfortunatly.

[M. Robinson]

Camillo acts correctly, but Shakespeare in delineating his character is careful to mix honor with prudence. The exchange in which Camillo warns Polixenes is an exercise in self-preservation, as he hitches not only his safety but his fortune to Polixenes, successfully jumping from one royal patron to another. It is also a scene in which we see both figures abandoning Hermione to her fate, with an almost comic haste, departing with the pious hope that Leontes will see that she is innocent, even as their flight can only be expected to confirm her guilt. Self-preservation is uppermost in the thoughts of both.