The Winter's Tale - Act I

[Quark]

Yes, she wanted me to tell you. But she beat me to it. She may be out of a computer for a while.

Do you know if she's going to be back Monday. She mentioned that, but I didn't know if that meant she was getting a new computer then or just going back to the library then. I'm wondering whether she's going to be back for the next Chekhov story. Any guess?

Absolutely we need to put it in the context of the entire play. Why not wait until we reach some conclusions on the other Acts?

That's probably best, but we should keep in mind how Leontes's jealousy relates to the rest of the story as we continue.

Oh? Ploting to kill your friend and throwing your wife in jail all on the basis of one incident? I think we're going to disagree on this Quark. Why does Shakespeare use the word "disease" several times throughout the act?

I don't think the number of incidents makes any difference. One incident is enough to intoduce the idea into Leontes head, and then his weak mind gives way to his imagination and mood. One step leads naturally to the other. It's regretable, but not insane. He uses the word diseased because his mind has been taken over by jealousy and he doesn't believe he can overcome it. A disease is similar. I think it makes much more sense to consider him weakminded than actually insane. It's hard to imagine that he snaps into insanity and out of it so quickly. That seems more like the behavoir of someone swept away by the thoughts of the moment.

[LadyWentworth]

It would be nice if you could join us. You're not far behind. You can read the first act in a half hour.

Yes, I can read a play fairly quickly. I just don't anticipate doing it for a couple of days yet. It is so hot here. Honestly, when it is this hot and humid out, I find it very hard to concentrate on anything. I don't plan on reading it until at least Sunday. It will be cooler outside then. So I probably won't be making any comments until sometime around then.

[sofia82]

Unfortunately, I might have to sit this one out; I am at my library now and they will close down in a few minutes - computer woes - Virgil can fill you all in on my troubles. I won't be able to post again until Monday unless someone can fix my problems on my PC. They are truly dire.

See you on Monday; I will drop in occasionally since I have been reading the play. I had some good ideas also but no time to post them.
Maybe on Monday. Have a nice weekend, Bye~

Oh, Janine! Sorry to hear that. Hope your computer will be fixed as soon as possible. Waiting for your return.

[Scheherazade]

and remember, Polixenes has a queen in his own land. Doesn't it seem odd he would leave her for so long? I think the time reference someone did mentioned, amounted to how much actual time, that he had been in this kingdom visiting?

At the opening of Scene II, Pol says:

Nine changes of the watery star hath been
The shepherd's note since we have left our throne
Without a burthen:

So it has been 9 months since his arrival (yes, it is an interesting choice of period on Shakespeare's part). I am not sure if it is too long considering the travelling conditions of the day. Probably it would take them weeks to get to one place so they might stay longer than we think it is acceptable today.

(As a side note, this is something I find interesting in 18th/19th century books as well. They go to visit their friends/relatives and stay for months!)

Leontes, himself, is to blame. This contrasts with Shakespeare's other jealous protagonist Othello, who is forced into jealousy by circumstances.

I agree with this. Othello listens to Iago and falls into a jealous rage while Leon fails to listen to Camillo when he is in a jealous rage. The differents between Iago and Camillo is very essential, I believe, it is this difference that changes the flow of events in both plays.

Hence, in my opinion, it is Camillo's reaction to it ,as well as Leon's jealousy, that is crucial to the development of the play. If he went along with Leon's plans, I don't think they would a play at all (not in this sense at least).

Janine pointed out that the tone Hermione uses with Polixenes is much warmer than that which she regards her husband. The Leontes's first aside shows that he's bothered by this. Also, I posted something about the uncomfortable association Leontes keeps making. He mentions the handclasp as a symbol of matrimony, and then Hermione clasps hands with Polixenes. This might prompt his jealousy, too.

I agree with this. Ironically immediately after Leon uses handclasp as a symbol of agreement on marriage, Hermione holds hands with Pol, calling him a friend... which sets Leon's mind working.

"Whispering"?

I don't think Leon means this literally as such. I think he means "are they already whispering (gossiping) behind my back?"; not because he has actually seen (or thinks he has seen) anyone doing so.

Jealousy is a funny business... If one is suspicious, they will see many "signs" and read between the lines in the way that it suits their "theory".

Decived? But based on what does he make this assertion?

Leon thinks he has been deceived by Camillo's intergrity because he thinks Camillo is using the word "satisfy" with double meaning and is upset that Camillo can make fun of the situation.

Again whisperings, he's hearing things. Then "cheek to cheek" is quite possible something he's seen. Faces accidently coming together. Then "meeting of noses"? Huh? Still possible, but "kissing with the inside lip"? Wait a second, that's something that is either true or false. And then...

Here, I think Leon is suggesting all the things that might happen when two people have affair, not because he has actually seen these things or knows them for sure. Now that it is certain in his mind that they are having an affair, he simply fills in the gaps himself.

It's clear that he's acting irrationally, but haven't we all done this? We sometimes get an idea, and then start reinterpreting everything around us with that idea. Sometimes this can get out of hand, too. Leontes is obviously an extreme example, but I don't think what he's doing is necessarily deranged. "All too human" may be a better description.

I think I also agree with Quark in that Leon is not mentally deranged or ill but is simply prone to jealousy and what follows it.

[Virgil]

At the opening of Scene II, Pol says:

Nine changes of the watery star hath been
The shepherd's note since we have left our throne
Without a burthen:

So it has been 9 months since his arrival (yes, it is an interesting choice of period on Shakespeare's part). I am not sure if it is too long considering the travelling conditions of the day. Probably it would take them weeks to get to one place so they might stay longer than we think it is acceptable today.

It is an unusual way to describe the lunar cycle. Seems like Shakespeare was intentionally striving for a water image. I hadn't noticed on my first reading, but does water figure prominantly in the play? Or is it the quality of non-solidity that Shakespeare is emphasing?

(As a side note, this is something I find interesting in 18th/19th century books as well. They go to visit their friends/relatives and stay for months!)

Thank God that tradition has ended. I can't tolerate house guests beyond few days or even a day.

I agree with this. Othello listens to Iago and falls into a jealous rage while Leon fails to listen to Camillo when he is in a jealous rage. The differents between Iago and Camillo is very essential, I believe, it is this difference that changes the flow of events in both plays.

Yes, I'm agreeing with it too. There is a difference between Othello's jealousy and Leontes. Leontes is self derived, which seems to me the product of a sick mind.

I don't Leon means this literally as such. I think he means "are they already whispering (gossiping) behind my back?"; not because he has actually seen (or thinks he has seen) anyone doing so.

Jealousy is a funny business... If one is suspicious, they will see many "signs" and read between the lines in the way that it suits their "theory".

Leon thinks he has been deceived by Camillo's intergrity because he thinks Camillo is using the word "satisfy" with double meaning and is upset that Camillo can make fun of the situation.Here, I think Leon is suggesting all the things that might happen when two people have affair, not because he has actually seen these things or knows them for sure. Now that it is certain in his mind that they are having an affair, he simply fills in the gaps himself.I think I also agree with Quark in that Leon is not mentally deranged or ill but is simply prone to jealousy and what follows it.

Well, yes, and one has to question whether Leontes metal state is normal. A mature person doesn't see sign after sign and fill in gaps with thoughts. A sane person doesn't jump to the conclusion of having his friend and wife killed after one little incident. Remmber it is just once that his wife has persuaded Poli. Just once, and Leontes is building all sorts of rash thoughts upon it. I mentioned elsewhere that a long time ago my mother experienced paranoia (along side with depression). This is exactly what she did, fill in gaps of signs with whisperings she thought she heard, images she thought she saw, collusions and conspiracies she felt existed; of course my mother's had nothing to do with jealousy. I don't know if anyone here has encountered a mentally ill person who suffers so, but for the most part they seem normal. Until one starts talking in details about things that they have on their minds. I don't think Shakespeare understood fully the nature of mental illness and especially paranoia, but certainly he must have had around him people who suffered. And there was no medications to help in those days, so I bet it was around daily. All I can say is read through this act again and highlight how many times the word "fear" and "disease" comes up. If I have time later, I'll number it.

[sofia82]

Thank God that tradition has ended. I can't tolerate house guests beyond few days or even a day.

I think it's because of this that the tradition chnaged. Stay for some months, make the host jealous or suspicious, which caused murders ... they stopped satying for long so they saved their own lives, and the whole member of the family they visit (just joking). I'll be back in a few minutes Hope so!

A question, does any one know about Derrida's deconstructive reading of The Winter's Tale?
Or this one, Shakespeare and Hospitality: Opening The Winter's Tale by David Ruite?

Shakespeare, as usual, starts the first scene as the introduction to what is the play about and what is going to happen in it. From the beginning he refers to the difference between Sicilia and Bohemia which will be represented through the play; Sicilia as the part of tragic, gloomy aspect of the play, and Bohemia as the comedy aspect.
In this first scene we are introduced to unalterable friendship of these two kings. When something emphasized so much we should wait that the opposite happens:

CAMILLO Sicilia cannot show himself over-kind to
Bohemia. They were trained together in their
childhoods; and there rooted betwixt them then such
an affection, which cannot choose but branch now.
Since their more mature dignities and royal necessities
made separation of their society, their encounters,
though not personal, have been royally attorneyed with
interchange of gifts, letters, loving embassies; that they
have seemed to be together, though absent, shook
hands, as over a vast, and embraced, as it were, from
the ends of opposed winds. The heavens continue
their loves!

Or

ARCHIDAMUS I think there is not in the world either
malice or matter to alter it.

From the beginning it is obvious the conflict is between these two kings. Ok! It's so obvious, and need no mention

Reading the first part of scene ii, (the dialogue between Leo. and Pol) Leo. answers Pol, who talks in long sentences, in an unkind or cold manner and in short. Look at his speeches

LEONTES Stay your thanks a while;
And pay them when you part.

LEONTES We are tougher, brother,
Than you can put us to’t.

LEONTES One seven-night longer.

LEONTES We’ll part the time between’s then; and
in that
I’ll no gainsaying.

And in the end:

LEONTES Tongue-tied, our Queen?
Speak you.

This shows that Leon is eager he stays or not? Who is persuaded by these cold requests and sometimes I think bitter requests to stay for even a day! Not, me! This occurred to me that he is playing or making a trap maybe to prove his suspicion is true and prove the affair between his queen and Pol. He has something in his mind before the queen's persuasion and Pol's acceptance. And Leon says something but means another thing, for example:

LEONTES Stay your thanks a while;
And pay them when you part.

Maybe, saying wait and see the end then decide how to thank me! A kind of evil thinking but not representing that. Sorry but I look at this like a jealous one as Leon is.

I and bouquin agreed Leon is jealous of her queen in policy and her being active and a kind of strong character, I find more hints about this in the next scenes. In scene ii, Hermione tries to teach him how to ask Pol to stay and it is a kind of educating him in front of his friend.

HERMIONE I had thought, sir, to have held my
peace until
You have drawn oaths from him not to stay. You, sir,
Charge him too coldly. Tell him, you are sure
All in Bohemia’s well; this satisfaction
The by-gone day proclaim’d: say this to him,
He’s beat from his best ward.

Can it be interpreted that she was sure Leon is not capable of persuading Pol. Even she doesn't say it to Pol but telling Leon what and how to say it.

Leontes,
I love thee not a jar o’ the clock behind
What lady-she her lord.

And here, she is saying I love thee, Leon. What is the necessity of this line in the middle of learning him how to ask Pol to stay? And then immediately talking to Pol. I cannot understand this! She is talking to leon but she means Pol? Imagine a person thinking of her wife's infidelity what thinks of this? Then suddenly Leon disappears and is ignored. It seems as if he is not present in this scene, being ignored. Another reason for his jealousy. Even there's been no affair between Her and Pol this can make a husband be angry: a king, a husband being ignored because of his friend.

Look at this (I hope I won't interpret so pessimistically, but anyway)

HERMIONE Was not my lord
The verier wag o’ the two?

And Pol (it seems to me if I made mistake correct it) says they were equal, denying that he's superior to him in cleverness or being amusing (I'm not sure about the meaning of this). Leon hearing all this, another reason for such a diseased mind to be suspicious.

LEONTES Is he won yet?

And he tries to make them see him … or be sure to do his plan.

[Quark]

I am not sure if it is too long considering the travelling conditions of the day. Probably it would take them weeks to get to one place so they might stay longer than we think it is acceptable today.

I'm not entirely sure, either. I would think that it was pretty normal--given, as you point out, the travel time.

It is an unusual way to describe the lunar cycle. Seems like Shakespeare was intentionally striving for a water image. I hadn't noticed on my first reading, but does water figure prominantly in the play? Or is it the quality of non-solidity that Shakespeare is emphasing?

I hadn't noticed that before. Maybe he is developing a theme here. We'll have to consider that as we move into the other sections.

Well, yes, and one has to question whether Leontes metal state is normal.

I don't mean to belabor the point too much, and I definitely don't want to get into a argument over what constitutes a normal mental state. I just want to make it clear what Leontes problem actually is. I don't necessarily object to calling Leontes insane (personally, I wouldn't, but some would). I do object, however, to him being characterized as insanely jealous. Leontes problem isn't that he's jealous. It's that he starts drawing unrealistic conclusions and then overreacting. Leontes says admits this himself:

Affection! thy intention stabs the centre.
Thou dost make possible things not so held,
Communicat'st with dreams (how can this be?),
With what's unreal thou co-active art,
And fellow'st nothing. (I, ii, 138-142)

He doesn't just do this with jealousy, either. We have to remember that he also does this with his repentence. Whether acting like this is insane or not is debateable, but I just want to make clear what Leontes is actually doing.

Shakespeare, as usual, starts the first scene as the introduction to what is the play about and what is going to happen in it.

Yeah, the two lords expose some of the plot. They also set the tone for the next scene.

I'll try to respond to the rest of your post when I come back.

[bouquin]

From the beginning he refers to the difference between Sicilia and Bohemia which will be represented through the play; Sicilia as the part of tragic, gloomy aspect of the play, and Bohemia as the comedy aspect.

Sicilia is the setting of tragedy and Bohemia the setting of comedy. And yet, Sicilia is supposed to be where the entertainment is more festive and gay, the food and drinks more delectable (Act I, Scene i, 6-12); and I'm sure we can safely assume, that it's where the climate is warmer, the sky more often cerulean as compared to Bohemia in the north (although, as has been pointed out in an earlier post, there seems to be some difference/error in the actual geographical location). What an irony.

[sofia82]

Sicilia is the setting of tragedy and Bohemia the setting of comedy. And yet, Sicilia is supposed to be where the entertainment is more festive and gay, the food and drinks more delectable (Act I, Scene i, 6-12); and I'm sure we can safely assume, that it's where the climate is warmer, the sky more often cerulean as compared to Bohemia in the north (although, as has been pointed out in an earlier post, there seems to be some difference/error in the actual geographical location). What an irony.

Is this because Shakespeare changed the real setting of the story which his play is based?

[Virgil]

Sicilia is the setting of tragedy and Bohemia the setting of comedy. And yet, Sicilia is supposed to be where the entertainment is more festive and gay, the food and drinks more delectable (Act I, Scene i, 6-12); and I'm sure we can safely assume, that it's where the climate is warmer, the sky more often cerulean as compared to Bohemia in the north (although, as has been pointed out in an earlier post, there seems to be some difference/error in the actual geographical location). What an irony.

That is an interesting observation. I'll have to give it some thought.

[Nightshade]

Another source I found in Wikipedia

One modern historian, Eric Ives, believes that the play is really a parody of the fall of Queen Anne Boleyn, who was beheaded on false charges of adultery on the orders of her husband Henry VIII in 1536. There are numerous parallels between the two stories - including the fact that one of Henry's closest friends, Sir Henry Norreys, was beheaded as one of Anne's supposed lovers and he refused to confess in order to save his life – claiming that everyone knew the Queen was innocent. If this theory is followed then Perdita becomes a dramatic presentation of Anne's only daughter, Queen Elizabeth I.

Now that IS intresting, all things concidered

What do you think of this switching of characters

?

I was actually wondering if the switch is significant, Im not sure if the archetypal stereotypy of the people from warmer countries being 'hot blooded' and prone to extremes of emotion was around in Shakespeare's day but if it was, could it be significant that Leon and Othello ( another protagonist who flies off the handle with jealousy) were from warmer countries than the victims of their jealousies?

At the opening of Scene II, Pol says:

Nine changes of the watery star hath been
The shepherd's note since we have left our throne
Without a burthen:

So it has been 9 months since his arrival (yes, it is an interesting choice of period on Shakespeare's part). I am not sure if it is too long considering the travelling conditions of the day. Probably it would take them weeks to get to one place so they might stay longer than we think it is acceptable today.

Humm is that waht leads to what happens soon do you think ? The time period?

I don't think Leon means this literally as such. I think he means "are they already whispering (gossiping) behind my back?"; not because he has actually seen (or thinks he has seen) anyone doing so.

Id agree with that

[kasie]

[QUOTE=Nightshade;590623]Now that IS intresting, all things concidered

Humm is that waht leads to what happens soon do you think ? The time period? QUOTE]

I think I have commented on these two points already - ref: #21

[bouquin]

Now that IS intresting, all things concidered
?

I was actually wondering if the switch is significant, Im not sure if the archetypal stereotypy of the people from warmer countries being 'hot blooded' and prone to extremes of emotion was around in Shakespeare's day but if it was, could it be significant that Leon and Othello ( another protagonist who flies off the handle with jealousy) were from warmer countries than the victims of their jealousies?

You raised a very valid point there about people from warmer climes being more 'hot blooded.'

And regarding the geographical location of Bohemia, it seems that there was a time when the territory extended all the way to the Adriatic coast so that it was not at all the land-locked area that it is today.

Prompt attack or long-standing malady, Leon's jealousy is indeed something very bizarre. But what I find even more outlandish - appalling, actually - is the punishment that he decides to inflict on Polix and Hermi, and the threat that he makes upon Camillo if the latter doesn't execute his wishes.

[Janine]

Just popped in to say hi and that I am trying to see how far the discusion has progressed. I am pretty much lost so far since I only read this one page but that does seem to be ironical, Sophia. I also liked the points that Scher brought up about the time-span.

My home computer is still non functional basically, so I am back in the library and time is so limited here. I need to get here earlier next week so I can catch up somewhat. Unfortunately they are closed the whole weekend and probably on Monday as well for the holiday - Independence Day - our 4th of July.

It seems the discussion is going along well. I am anxious to read more of the pages and post some comments - ones I have been thinking of when I am at home but don't have the time to write in this forum presently; they close at 9*frown*. So see you all next week!

[sofia82]

Just popped in to say hi and that I am trying to see how far the discusion has progressed. I am pretty much lost so far since I only read this one page but that does seem to be ironical, Sophia. I also liked the points that Scher brought up about the time-span.

Don't worry Janine, it seems we post comment a day and do nothing for the whole week. So you will be not so far behind

My home computer is still non functional basically, so I am back in the library and time is so limited here. I need to get here earlier next week so I can catch up somewhat. Unfortunately they are closed the whole weekend and probably on Monday as well for the holiday - Independence Day - our 4th of July.

So Happy Independence Day!

It seems the discussion is going along well. I am anxious to read more of the pages and post some comments - ones I have been thinking of when I am at home but don't have the time to write in this forum presently; they close at 9*frown*. So see you all next week!

Hope to see you soon with your comments and of course new computer!