Is all magic bad?

[Scheherazade]

Final Reminder

R e m i n d e r

Please do not personalise your arguments.

Such posts will be deleted without further notice.

[The Atheist]

Final Reminder

Sure.

It does surprise me a little that my last post came under that umbrella as I had tried to ensure I didn't do that, but I'll take your word that it did and has been deleted accordingly.

I'd be interested to know how this post doesn't qualify:

Which, of course, you'll neglect to explain or demonstrate.

What you really need to do .....

.... what you should already clearly understand....

.... why you're acting like your statment was more complex is a mystery to me....

No - you've said absolutely nothing that shows that you understand ....

...for reasons you don't have to (or cannot) provide. ...

... Why you're squirming around ...

Here a straw man, there a straw man, everywhere a straw man...

You're grasping, my friend. You made a comment .....

..., you're throwing up whatever you can to smokescreen the issue. ...

.... How could you possibly have missed that?

[Judas130]

ladies please, this thread is getting interesting. Yet well off-topic...

new topic for new arguments? the informality in some of these comments won't get us anywhere nearer to clearer understanding.

anyways,

The implication from many atheists in these forums is very clear: God is to blame for the terrible things Christians do. How could you possibly have missed that?

wrong. to believe that there is a god to be angry at is a theistic belief as it acknowledges a deity to be angry towards. Atheists don't believe in God.

And you just engaged in a fair amount of generalizing too about "preacher's salaries" etc -- the majority of people who serve God do so for average pay, to less than average pay - often making huge sacrifices to serve. You reached into the standard pocket of stereotypes for that one, my friend. Don't accuse me of what you yourself do and expect me to take the hit quietly.

when people draw on these stereotypes an image of a white man on a stage who looks like Elvis, wearing an expensive suit with people waving money at him shouting 'i believe!!!'.

unfortunately, this is very real all over the world. Yet, look, i'm a christian, and i'm saying this: that's completely disgusting. The man will, according to christian belief, be punished in some way for this as he is perverting God's cause and benefiting only himself and not others, unlike how a real preacher of God should be. Apparently, traditionally, that would be a man with little or even nothing, leaving his family behind to preach. However, in this modern world we tend not to do that, i wouldn't want to leave my family behind. Yet, because i dont, does this somehow make me into the filth i described above? I'd laugh if you said yes.

What is all this? I don't have to atone for the misdeeds of other Christians. I reiterate: God will judge all in the end; Christians who misrepresented God will bear a harsher penalty because they should have know better (as the Bible says, "to those whom much is given, much is required").

exactly, its an unfair argument that when put to question becomes only hazy accusations on account of history. Christians are not some bloodthirsty cult. Also, not all christians actually think this deeply as Jozanny is thinking now. Most of the christians i know and have ever met growing up in a christian society are people who want money for their work, who put their faith last, who care about themselves, who regularly indulge in 'sin' and don't think twice, and hardly know a thing about the history of their faith. The one thing that makes these folk different is that at the back of your head you feel bad if you're mean, you might not want to kill the spider for the girl, you feel like helping the old woman across the road, you have the ability to put yourself before others and care for them instead. All this indoctrinated as good conduct in the back of your brain from childhood, and no...this is a side to human nature, not just a christian thing, only we are taught to respect this and see it as important and, well, it rubbs off a little on some.

Most Christians would simply take what you've said (Jozanny) and reply with a 'sorry, thats ridiculous, i've got to take my child to school now, goodbye' or, maybe if your lucky, a good old '...wha?'.

All beliefs claim to have the exclusive truth; the Jews do, the Hindus do, the Muslims do, the Buddhists do - so why does everyone get hostile when the Christians say the same?

A Likely answer is probably because Christianity has ever had its it stranglehold on western history since the roman empire crumbled, as they censored literature and science, and slowed the development of physical knowledge and medicines because of it. Now the church doesn't have this hold anymore, so far as we know. It might seem weak and old and people have the choice not follow the church without being exiled from their towns or whatever. People are looking for every opportunity to ridicule and damage one of the largest, if not THE largest, organisation in the world.

is it weird that i say organisation and not faith? hmm.

[Redzeppelin]

wrong. to believe that there is a god to be angry at is a theistic belief as it acknowledges a deity to be angry towards. Atheists don't believe in God.

I understand why you say this, but the reality that atheists don't think God is real doesn't always seem to stop a number of them from attacking Him anyway because we believe He's real.

Most of the christians i know and have ever met growing up in a christian society are people who want money for their work, who put their faith last, who care about themselves, who regularly indulge in 'sin' and don't think twice, and hardly know a thing about the history of their faith. The one thing that makes these folk different is that at the back of your head you feel bad if you're mean, you might not want to kill the spider for the girl, you feel like helping the old woman across the road, you have the ability to put yourself before others and care for them instead. All this indoctrinated as good conduct in the back of your brain from childhood, and no...this is a side to human nature, not just a christian thing, only we are taught to respect this and see it as important and, well, it rubbs off a little on some.

You speak truth, but you're harsher than I would like to be - all people are sinners, and all are in need of God's help to be better people. Christians are not immune to temptation, sin, and choices that are unequivocally evil in nature. But that doesn't invalidate Christianity any more than some bad Catholic priests preying on children invalidates the good that many priests provide their congregations. A few bad cops does not invalidate the value of the police department; a small number of sexual predator teachers does not cancel out the value of what the mass majority of teachers give to kids. Yes there are shallow, superficial Christians out there - but there are also plenty who do good, and good you'll never hear about because it was a quiet, local action - giving food to the poor, comforting the neighbor who just got divorced, donating a dryer to the single mom who hasn't got one - that stuff happens in little tiny churches all over the country, but such things rarely if ever make the evening news.

Most Christians would simply take what you've said (Jozanny) and reply with a 'sorry, thats ridiculous, i've got to take my child to school now, goodbye' or, maybe if your lucky, a good old '...wha?'.

Maybe so, but now we're dealing with the term "Christian" and the difference between those who "wear" the name, and those who act it out. The latter are the real ones.

A Likely answer is probably because Christianity has ever had its it stranglehold on western history since the roman empire crumbled, as they censored literature and science, and slowed the development of physical knowledge and medicines because of it. Now the church doesn't have this hold anymore, so far as we know. It might seem weak and old and people have the choice not follow the church without being exiled from their towns or whatever. People are looking for every opportunity to ridicule and damage one of the largest, if not THE largest, organisation in the world.

The church is never wholly free (as humans never are) of the influence of culture. The medieval church was a reflection of much of the attitudes and philosophies of the time; if a church lives during a brutal, repressive time, the risk is that it might absorb some of those qualities - and this is true because in today's postmodern, relativistic society, a clear trend of relativism even shows up in Christian dialogues - even though the Bible makes very clear that some actions, some beliefs, are clearly wrong.

[Etienne]

A little food for thought linked to the subject at hand:

"The death of dogma is the birth of morality." - Kant

[Scheherazade]

Sure.

It does surprise me a little that my last post came under that umbrella as I had tried to ensure I didn't do that, but I'll take your word that it did and has been deleted accordingly.

I'd be interested to know how this post doesn't qualify:

No posts have been deleted in this thread since its start. They might have been merged if they were posted in close succession but that is all.

If you go back and check your posts, I am sure you will see that they are still there.

[The Atheist]

No posts have been deleted in this thread since its start. They might have been merged if they were posted in close succession but that is all.

If you go back and check your posts, I am sure you will see that they are still there.

Oh, ok. Must be my computer - it showed the post made but must have got lost in the ether.

In the meantime, someone else has posted appropriate answers anyway!