D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

[Janine]

Logos, I tried it both ways and actually I think I will go with the text doc. It will take up less hard-drive space, although the other is prettier, of course. It took me awhile to find the file you were talking about, but I finally found it all the way up in my own browser menu; before that, like a dummy, I was looking only on the Lit Net pages (tan) and could not locate it. It is easy to use and works quickly. I can make out the differences in the quote and the posted text. One is intended. The text will be faster to copy and less to store. Thanks so much for these great instructions and taking the time to write them all out; sorry it got late for you; your brain needed a rest after all this.

[Quark]

By jove, he I think must be the old adam. What do you guys think?

I haven't been able to put together what the title refers to. We all agree that it's an allusion to the character in Genesis, but beyond that it becomes hard to understand. The "Old" in "Old Adam" either refers to the fact that the story of Adam is old or it refers to Adam advanced in age (post-lapsarian). Either way, the title probably is meant to show that the narrative in some way demonstrates the fall of man. Whether one character is meant to demonstrate that or just the general plot, I don't know. The closest we come to a character "falling" is not either of the men in this story, though. It's Gertie. She's the one who commits a sin and suffers. The guys, meanwhile, reconcile their differences and move on--hardly a "fall." If the title referred to a woman, though, wouldn't it be called "The Old Eve?" It's confusing. Clearly, Gertie is an Eve-like character, but who does that make Adam? Mr. Thomas? Severn? Severn sort of depicts what Lawrence thought of as a fallen man, but he's redeemed at the end. How can he be Adam? Once again, it's confusing.

Perhaps he would enjoy my clerihews.

This made me look at your blog, Virgil, and what a mistake that was. I think I lost whatever innocence I had left.

I found the line, "Mr. Thomas bit his bread-and-butter" very interesting. A rather innocuous line but it does tie back to the child biting into bread and butter too: "She sat on his knee in her high-waisted night-gown, eating her piece of bread-and-butter with savage little bites of resentment."

That's a good observation. I didn't notice that. Both characters are primitive, and their reaction to obstacles is similar: gnaw on some bread. I think the characters are primitive in different ways, though. Mr. Thomas is a brute. He's the simian predecessor to man who lacks the cerebral skills and refinement of ordinary human beings. This is certainly primitive, but it's different from the girl who is merely free-spirited and impulsive. I suppose you could call them two sides to the same coin, but I do think they express different forms of "precivilized" behavior.

I'd like to say how masterfully Lawrence handles the Severn character.

Oh, I agree. Lawrence develops Severn's character and his relationship to Mrs. Thomas very well. One part seems to naturally come out of the next until the full charactered emerged at exactly the critical moment.

What's really interesting, and again it just caught my eye, is that the discussion of politics is over woman's liberation.

Gertie's married to a brutish husband. What could be more appropriate?

I like the subtext:

That's hilarious. You captured it perfectly. Lawrence should have included a subtext commentary like your's after the story.

One thing I did notice, though I do not know if it is meant to mean anything, but with the relgious nature of the story it did strike me as currious. There is never at any point more than three people together in the room.

Maybe I'm harping on this too much, but I think all the characters are playing out one shared plot. If Lawrence brought them all out at once it would be needlessly repetitive. We know what is going on with Kate through what is going on with Severn, and we understand Mary through Gertie. The reader doesn't need to see them all at once because they can be described through the other characters who share their qualities.

[Virgil]

Weren't trains a good symbol to Lawrence? I can't believe he had all three watch the trains for no reason at all, yet the fight follows?

Not exactly sure what you mean by good symbol. Usually it suggests the modern world. That meaning does fit here I believe.

Quark, the old Adam refers to the pre-lapsarian man, that is man before the fall and pre-civilization.

[Pensive]

Quark, the old Adam refers to the pre-lapsarian man, that is man before the fall and pre-civilization.

Thanks Virgil for making this clear. It quite makes sense.

Oh and Janine, you will be missed. But I guess we all need rest at times in our life. But despite of that I hope you visit us now and then.

[Quark]

Not exactly sure what you mean by good symbol. Usually it suggests the modern world. That meaning does fit here I believe.

You're probably right, but I never took them so much as symbols. They seem like simply a mood setting device. A sting of light in the distance is a sensual image which fits with the seductive mood of that scene and the one in the previous story. It's funny that all the characters stop to stare at it, as Anti pointed out. Lawrence was really trying to make the reader notice, I guess.

Quark, the old Adam refers to the pre-lapsarian man, that is man before the fall and pre-civilization.

That could be, but still you run into problems trying to evaluate which character is Adam or how the story relates to its title. There are two "precivilized" characters but neither is like prelapsarian Adam. Mary is more like a heathen, and it's questionable whether Mr. Thomas is even human. Severn perhaps comes closest to being an Adam because he's unaware that he's in love with Mrs. Thomas. He's repressing that love, though. He isn't totally unaware of it.

[Dark Muse]

I really did not care for Joe.

Though we do not see much of Kate I had an inclination to like her, and I liked Mary, and did not really find anything wrong with her. I personally like the whole "wild child" thing. I like a kid that shorts some spirit and spunk.

And I found Severn to be intriguing. He had a certain almost sarcasam to him, with his "dangerous laughter" but than again I tend to be like people who do have that evil, or dark side.

and Mrs. Thomas I did not care for. She was too overbearing.

[Janine]

Even though I am taking a break from this story for the remainder of the the month, I did enjoy reading this story; so I am reading the posts, just not posting, Pensive. I was just wondering - what happened to Virgil?

[Virgil]

No I haven't deserted. I thought you guys wanted a little more time. I'll get the next section out tonight.

[Janine]

No I haven't deserted. I thought you guys wanted a little more time. I'll get the next section out tonight.

Ha! and you said you would be faster than me.

Yeah really, A, V should get is brain out of those silly poems and get in here!

[Janine]

You mean "dirty" poems. I read them all, too. Who knows what he's composed that he hasn't shown us, Janine?

Yep, there the ones. I read them all, too (unfortunately). Yes, if these are his public works, better we don't know his private ones.

Poor Lawrence. And people accused him of things.

Yeah, really. I think he would have cringed at Virgil's poem about him.

Virgil, tsk, tsk. (You did tell us you'd be faster, though. Janine is right. Since you've discovered Clerihews, we've barely heard a peep from you. LOL)

Yes, tsk, tsk - Shakespeare uses that a lot! tsk! I guess he will surface eventually.

[Virgil]

Ok, ok. Even God said to rest on the seventh day.

Here's the next section:

"Oh, before you go, do you mind, Mr. Severn, helping Mr. Thomas down with Kate's box? You may be gone before he's up in the morning, and the cab comes at ten. Do you mind?"

"Why should I?" replied Severn.

"Are you ready, Joe?" she asked her husband.

Thomas rose with the air of a man who represses himself and is determined to be patient.

"Where is it?" he asked.

"On the top landing. I'll tell Kate, and then we shan't frighten her. She has gone to bed."

Mrs. Thomas was quite mistress of the situation; both men were humble before her. She led the way, with a candle, to the third floor. There on the little landing, outside the closed door, stood a large tin trunk. The three were silent because of the baby.

"Poor Kate," Severn thought. "It's a shame to kick her out into the world, and all for nothing." He felt an impulse of hate towards womankind.

"Shall I go first, Mr. Severn?" asked Thomas.

It was surprising how friendly the two men were, as soon as they had something to do together, or when Mrs. Thomas was absent. Then they were comrades, Thomas, the elder, the thick-set, playing the protector's part, though always deferential to the younger, whimsical man.

"I had better go first," said Thomas kindly. "And if you put this round the handle, it won't cut your fingers."

He offered the young man a little flexible book from his pocket. Severn had such small, fine hands that Thomas pitied them.

Severn raised one end of the trunk. Leaning back, and flashing a smile to Mrs. Thomas, who stood with the candle, he whispered: "Kate's got a lot more impediments than I have."

"I know it's heavy," laughed Mrs. Thomas.

Thomas, waiting at the brink of the stairs, saw the young man tilting his bare throat towards the smiling woman, and whispering words which pleased her.

"At your pleasure, sir," he said in his most grating and official tones.

"Sorry," Severn flung out scornfully.

The elder man retreated very cautiously, stiffly lowering himself down one stair, looking anxiously behind.

"Are you holding the light for me, Gertie?" he snapped sarcastically, when he had managed one stair. She lifted the candle with a swoop. He was in a bustle and a funk, Severn, always indifferent, smiled slightly, and lowered the box with negligent ease of movement. As a matter of fact, three-quarters of the heavy weight: pressed on Thomas. Mrs. Thomas watched the two figures from above.

"If I slip now," thought Severn, as he noticed the anxious, red face of his landlord, "I should squash him like a shrimp," and he laughed to himself.

"Don't come yet," he called softly to Mrs. Thomas, whom he heard following. "If you slip, your husband's bottom-most under the smash. 'Beware the fearful avalanche!'"

He laughed, and Mrs. Thomas gave a little chuckle. Thomas, very red and flustered, glanced irritably back at them, but said nothing.

Near the bottom of the staircase there was a twist in the stairs. Severn was feeling particularly reckless. When he came to the turn, he chuckled to himself, feeling his house-slippers unsafe on the narrowed, triangular stairs. He loved a risk above all things, and a subconscious instinct made the risk doubly sweet when his rival was under the box. Though Severn would not knowingly have hurt a hair of his landlord's head.

When Thomas was beginning to sweat with relief, being only one step from the landing, Severn did slip, quite accidentally. The great box crashed as if in pain, Severn glissaded down the stairs. Thomas was flung backwards across the landing, and his head went thud against the banister post. Severn, seeing no great harm done, was struggling to his feet, laughing and saying: "I'm awfully sorry--" when Thomas got up. The elder man was infuriated like a bull. He saw the laughing face of Severn and he went mad. His brown eyes flared.

Hahaha, this is great drama. And like a really good joke, Lawrence sets up the punch line. "Are you holding the light for me, Gertie?" he snapped sarcastically" and then "If I slip now," thought Severn, as he noticed the anxious, red face of his landlord, "I should squash him like a shrimp," and he laughed to himself." and then "Severn was feeling particularly reckless. When he came to the turn, he chuckled to himself, feeling his house-slippers unsafe on the narrowed, triangular stairs" all set up the sip and drop of the trunk. But the key here is the psychological implications of the drop. Did Severn do it on purpose? Well, we can take it on face value that he didn't mean to drop the trunk. But this I think is the key:

Near the bottom of the staircase there was a twist in the stairs. Severn was feeling particularly reckless. When he came to the turn, he chuckled to himself, feeling his house-slippers unsafe on the narrowed, triangular stairs. He loved a risk above all things, and a subconscious instinct made the risk doubly sweet when his rival was under the box. Though Severn would not knowingly have hurt a hair of his landlord's head.

A "subconscious instinct." Below his conscious thoughts Severn wants to drop the trunk. He's been bullied by Mr. Thomas all night and now he's got a chance to get his revenge. He realizes how dangerous it would be to Mr. Thomas, "I should squash him like a shrimp," but he doesn't consciously want to hurt him, but he does want him hurt. Their masculine instincts are revved up, and ready for a fight. The fight was subconsciously in the works prior to the dropped trunk. They just needed an excuse to go through with it.

[Janine]

I'll bet Virgil could compose a good Clerihew about this story :LOL:

Yes, Lawrence was conventional is someways - he did want marriage to one woman, based on love, respect, closeness; athough, he did not like the word 'love' particularly, because he felt it was much more than the actual word usually indicated. He did desire this union for a lifetime, maybe even eternity; yes, he did believe in fidelity, although it is reported that Frieda did stray towards the end, but L was suppose to be impotent by then; but I don't think L liked it one bit; he just accepted it because he did love her.

[Virgil]

I
Edit - Oh, I see you're back, Virgil. Janine and I could only come to the conclusion that you were off composing Clerihews.

You women better watch it. Or I'll compose some new clerihews about someone named Antiquarian and Janine.

[Dark Muse]

"On the top landing. I'll tell Kate, and then we shan't frighten her. She has gone to bed."

This confused me a bit, as I was not sure just what it is she thought would frighten Kate.

Severn raised one end of the trunk. Leaning back, and flashing a smile to Mrs. Thomas, who stood with the candle, he whispered: "Kate's got a lot more impediments than I have."

"I know it's heavy," laughed Mrs. Thomas.

Thomas, waiting at the brink of the stairs, saw the young man tilting his bare throat towards the smiling woman, and whispering words which pleased her.

"At your pleasure, sir," he said in his most grating and official tones.

"Sorry," Severn flung out scornfully.

The elder man retreated very cautiously, stiffly lowering himself down one stair, looking anxiously behind.

"Are you holding the light for me, Gertie?" he snapped sarcastically, when he had managed one stair. She lifted the candle with a swoop. He was in a bustle and a funk, Severn, always indifferent, smiled slightly, and lowered the box with negligent ease of movement. As a matter of fact, three-quarters of the heavy weight: pressed on Thomas. Mrs. Thomas watched the two figures from above.

"If I slip now," thought Severn, as he noticed the anxious, red face of his landlord, "I should squash him like a shrimp," and he laughed to himself.

"Don't come yet," he called softly to Mrs. Thomas, whom he heard following. "If you slip, your husband's bottom-most under the smash. 'Beware the fearful avalanche!'"

He laughed, and Mrs. Thomas gave a little chuckle. Thomas, very red and flustered, glanced irritably back at them, but said nothing.

I found this little flirtation between Mrs. Thomas, and Severn here to be interesting.

A moment ago Severn was gripped by hatred for womankind becasue of Mrs. Thomas's treatment of Kate, but now he is once more joining in with her, in making fun of someone else.

Near the bottom of the staircase there was a twist in the stairs. Severn was feeling particularly reckless. When he came to the turn, he chuckled to himself, feeling his house-slippers unsafe on the narrowed, triangular stairs. He loved a risk above all things, and a subconscious instinct made the risk doubly sweet when his rival was under the box. Though Severn would not knowingly have hurt a hair of his landlord's head.

When Thomas was beginning to sweat with relief, being only one step from the landing, Severn did slip, quite accidentally. The great box crashed as if in pain, Severn glissaded down the stairs. Thomas was flung backwards across the landing, and his head went thud against the banister post. Severn, seeing no great harm done, was struggling to his feet, laughing and saying: "I'm awfully sorry--" when Thomas got up. The elder man was infuriated like a bull. He saw the laughing face of Severn and he went mad. His brown eyes flared.

This reminds me of the lamp incident in the last story. Where to me there seems to be a thin vauge line between accident and intention.

It is interesting that Mr. Thomas, does blame Severn for having done it on purpose, and though it seems that in fact he had accidently slipped all the while he was cotemplating doing the very thing that happened.

I felt that the age difference between the two men, Mr. Thomas being the elder, with Severn being a young man played some role in the fight, particuarly with the ideas of "primal" man. As the fight in someways made me think of pack animals, in which young males will try and establish themselves as the leaders by making a challange to the older males within the pack, the alphas, to try and establish dominence for thesmelves, becasue as the young grow older, they become restless feeling they have a lesser rank, and having to take orders.

[Janine]

Really? I'm sure Janine and I would be honored.

Thank you for the information, Janine. Yes, I believe love is more than love. It's more all encompassing than the word indicates.

Anytime, Antiquarian; I have tons of biographical information on Lawrence and love to share it with others. Yes, actually in the novel "Women in Love" he makes it known that the word 'love' is insufficent for what he feels exists in a perfect relationship between a man and a woman, husband and wife. I grasp his idea on a deeper plane, now innate and I believe he is correct.

Why did Lawrence write so much about infidelity? I do know Connie in Lady Chatterley's Love is very hesitant to become the lover of Mellors. She's encouraged by her husband and doesn't want the affair (for want of a better word). Not at first.

I don't know except to think that so much was born out of his own family situation and his parents who were so at odds with each other, so different. I think Lawrence was a very keen observer of life around him; he was highly sensitive to individuals and could read far below the surface of a person. I think he is extraordinary delving into the minds of women, especially. Yes, Lady Chatterly does not go off with Mellors suddenly, she is slowly attracted to him; she struggles with this attraction; then with breaking away from her husband. I think basically, Lawrence writes about human struggle; all of his stories are filled with that struggle and elements of opposition, even within a person. I can see how Lawrence would have related to that struggle.

Why do some authors write about murders? They are not murderers themselves. I think authors try to teach us by showing us the wrong things people do or their reactions that go astray or their bad decisions; in this way, we come to the conclusion that the characters could have acted more appropriately. Therefore, we come to the conclusion that life could be better and we could make it so.

He wrote about infidelity in his short stories, too. Was he just exploring human nature and the problems we have with love? I can understand that.

The above goes along with this. In showing that people do indeed act out infidelity or other failings of human-beings he is not condoning that behavior but showing how wrong or destructive it can be.

I read somewhere that Lawrence said it was vital for a mate of his to be as passionately interested in literature as he was. He said it was essential that he be able to share that with the woman he married. Did he share that with Frieda? Was she open to that? I would imagine so, but I don't know.

Frieda was involved in Lawrence's work very much so. I think she was a highly intelligent woman. Don't judge a book by it's cover. I think she was well-read and very helpful in regard to his novels; I don't think so much with his short stories. I just read "The Virgin and the Gipsy" and noticed the book was dedicated to her.

His rival? For Mrs. Thomas? Or just his male rival in the night's shenanigans?

Short answer, since I was suppose to be refraining from posting on the story. I think rival to Mrs. Thomas. Seems the three make up the triangle often seen in Lawrence's stories. It is not till Severn glances towards Mrs. Thomas that her husband becomes jealous and irritable, sarcastic towards Severn.

The scene is wonderfully comic and again, loaded with subtext. Very masterful writing here.

I laughed when I first read it. I found it very amusing. Lawrence, who Severn was suppose to be fashioned after (biographically), did indeed make that family (the Jones) laugh often. He had a great rapport with them; I read that in one of my biography books.