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Thread: D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

  1. #2071
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Wow, I don't know how to reply to all. I'll do my best. Actually I don't have any specific points on that part of the text; these are responses to you points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antiquarian View Post
    Men never bicker over anything but the affections of a woman? I don't know. I did think they do, but I'm not positive. LOL
    No they bicker over lots of things. Just look over my lit net fights. They are almost all against men I've noticed. I'm too much of a gentleman to fight with women. But what else is implied in this story that they could be bickering over? I may be only seeing phallices again, but I only see a sexual tug of war.

    Edit - Well, I did try the multiple postings thing and it's a mess. I had to go back and put my replies in bold. This is why I don't like the thing.
    Oh I wish I could show you. It's really not hard. Oh well, whatever is easiest for you.

    I certainly think men can bicker over things other than the affections of a woman, and I can see a lot of points to this story other than sexual tension.
    Like what? I'm curious.

    I do think Lawrence wanted to insert sexual tension into this story, but like Virgil, I don't find the story at all well crafted.
    The sexual tension with Gertie is definitely there. Each scene is extremely well written. I just don't find the relationship between the scenes and the purpose of each scene clear.

    I see the story as more a domestic power struggle. Perhaps Lawrence wanted it to be more, and I can see where some people see more, but I feel like Virgil, if Lawrence did want more, then he failed in this story, and that's not a criticism because all the best writers fail at a story from time to time. It's natural and it's human. Lawrence became a writer of magnificent short stories, no doubt about that, but I don't think this one can be counted among the great ones. As Virgil said, it's too ambiguous, too unconnected.
    The question I would say is a struggle for what? But yes Lawrence leaves it (I believe, and perhaps I'm wrong) as a subconscious attraction.

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Quark View Post
    You guys are funny. Lawrence is being subtle, and that's the only way he could write about their relationship. If he gave it away and told us unequivocally whether Severn and Gertie wanted an affair, then the reader would have to take sides during the dispute at the end. It would become a matter of choosing between marriage and infidelity. Instead, Lawrence blurs their relationship and makes it about the characters' vague longings versus the husband's harsh uprightness. I think this is why Lawrence doesn't just come out and tell you what's going on between Gertie and Severn.
    Yes Quark I've been saying it was mostly on a subconscious level. See my comments in this post.
    Quote Originally Posted by Antiquarian View Post
    I have to disagree here. I don't think Lawrence was being subtle at all. Not in this story. I think he's being quite heavy-handed.

    This is not subtle:

    "Severn sank in his chair, half suffocated by the beating his his heart. Yet, time after time, as the flashes came, they looked at each other, till in the end they both were panting, and afraid, not of the lightning but of themselves and of each other."

    (At this point, I agree that they find themselves attracted to each other.)

    "He (Severn) was so much moved that he became conscious of his perturbation. "What the deuce is up?" he asked himself, wondering. At twenty-seven, he was quite chaste. Being highly civilised, he prized women for their intuition, and because of the dlicacy with which he could transfer to them his thoughts and feelings, without cumbrous argument. From this to a state of passion he could only proceed by fine gradations, and such a procedure he had never begun. Now he was startled, astonished, perturbed, yet still scarcely conscious of his whereabouts. There was a pain in his chest that made him pant, and an involuntary tension in his arms, as if he must press someone to his breast. But the idea that this someone was Mrs. Thomas would have shocked him too much had he formed it. His passion had run on subconsciously, till now it had come to such a pitch it must drag his conscious soul into allegiance. This, however, would probably never happen; he would not yeild allegiance, and blind emotion, in this direction, could not carry him alone."
    Yes I agree that is heavy handed. That is making my point exactly.

    Obviously, Edward and Gertie have never engaged in anything even remotely like a sexual or romantic affair, though the storm and their being shut up together seems to have affected them momentarily, especially Edward. But he doesn't like it. He seems appalled by the very idea.
    I agree, I don't think they've acted on their subconscious attractions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quark View Post
    That made it sound like you were criticizing Lawrence for not making their relationship clear.
    Hehehe. Anti I think you've switched positions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Muse View Post
    I felt it was always a bit unclear just why Severn does seem to be so appalled by the idea. I cannot say I honestly felt it was because of any morality he felt in regards to engaging in an unfair, or any sort of fear of disloyalty toward Mr. Thomas. I just do not get that that is his reasoning for resistance.
    I think in several places the point is made that layers of civilization has been put onto the characters. Look, the central theme of the story is that below the layers of civilization (and that's the point of the religions in the story) a brutish, carnal root of humanity, even animalism, exists. That's why the men fight and the child is wild in a precivilized way, and the sexual attractions affect the characters. I was going to make this point later, but what the heck.

    But I wondered if it is the fact that he truly does not care for the kind of woman Mrs. Thomas is that repulses him at his physical attraction to her, or if in fact the idea of intimacy with women in general is repulsive to him and he is trying to suppress his natural urges.
    Well, Mrs Thomas is a bit older, married with a child, strong built, even husky. That sounds just like Frieda.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

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  2. #2072
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    Wow, I don't know how to reply to all. I'll do my best. Actually I don't have any specific points on that part of the text; these are responses to you points.
    Wow, I am lost now. Admittedly, I don't know how to reply to any of this. I am so far behind now I doubt I can catch up. I will just go with the new posts, starting with yours.

    No they bicker over lots of things. Just look over my lit net fights.
    How true, how true! You did not get your name for nothing - the B,M, D one.


    They are almost all against men I've noticed. I'm too much of a gentleman to fight with women. But what else is implied in this story that they could be bickering over? I may be only seeing phallices again, but I only see a sexual tug of war.
    I can buy part of that but gentleman could probably be changed to 'lady's man.' I see the sexual tug of war quite clearly myself.


    The sexual tension with Gertie is definitely there. Each scene is extremely well written. I just don't find the relationship between the scenes and the purpose of each scene clear.
    I agree or at least sexual attraction as some point. I also think each scene is extremely well written. I have no qualms with the writing here. I don't see that it fails at all to express what is going on in the house.

    The question I would say is a struggle for what? But yes Lawrence leaves it (I believe, and perhaps I'm wrong) as a subconscious attraction.
    Doesn't he do that often though in his writing?


    Yes Quark I've been saying it was mostly on a subconscious level. See my comments in this post.
    Yes I agree that is heavy handed. That is making my point exactly.
    Could you explain what you mean by heavy handed. Is that another literary term I am not familiar with?

    I agree, I don't think they've acted on their subconscious attractions.
    I don't see any acting on the attraction at all; just thinking of the posibility of it. This is quite reminescent of Lawrence's play "The Widowing of Mrs. Holroyd". A younger male who is close friends with Mrs. Holroyd expresses his own sexual attraction towards her, completely to the surprise of the woman/wife in the story; perhaps subconsicously she realised it before but then it becomes conscious. In this story the opposite seems to be occurring and the male is wondering at the wife's remarks. It is interesting to me how Lawrence reversed that idea.

    Hehehe. Anti I think you've switched positions.
    I would say a number of times now; that is partly why I am so confused.


    I think in several places the point is made that layers of civilization has been put onto the characters. Look, the central theme of the story is that below the layers of civilization (and that's the point of the religions in the story) a brutish, carnal root of humanity, even animalism, exists. That's why the men fight and the child is wild in a precivilized way, and the sexual attractions affect the characters. I was going to make this point later, but what the heck.
    Virgil, I think those are interesting thoughts and intelligent and all posibilities. I am not totally sure of their validity but like I said it sounds possible. Maybe later you can expound on this idea. I can see what you are leading up to here and I think you are on the right track.


    Well, Mrs Thomas is a bit older, married with a child, strong built, even husky. That sounds just like Frieda.
    Where does the text say she is husky? Just curious. The woman who this character was fashioned after was Mrs. Jones, and not Frieda. You are so funny, Virgil, you are always thinking it is Frieda. Is that like your phallic symbol fetishes? You always picture Frieda also from her worst photos after she lived with L for many years. Her earlier photos show a rather pretty woman. I guess living with a genius is not easy.
    Indeed, Mrs. Jones and Mr. Jones were a few years older than Lawrence, when he resided with them in Croydon. They even moved once and Lawrence moved with them. I don't think I ran across any physical description of Mrs. Jones, just that she was the mother of two young girls.

    I will try to go back to Antiquarian's now and add on the new one. Also, I think Quark posted something. At least I will read all those.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  3. #2073
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Well, Antiquarian, asside from your last two posts, which I did not see until just now; I have been working on this post from the previous page (in my offline program). I really wish to post it; it took me considerable time. I didn't misconstrue your posts at all; I just needed the read them over again and time to answer. I was out most of the evening and got in late. I am aware that I use bold face type at times to accent certain key words or phrases; actually, Virgil began that method, way back in the second or third story.
    I didn't mean anything unkind when i said that you could get help from a moderator. I have often asked them for help with formating and other tech problems. The fact, that your text in that one post, contained the failed quoting with a beige background and Virgil's text and then your bold parts (replies) with the difference in the bottom white area, made it very confusing, but I have worked it out offline. I just hope these quotes are correct as to who said what:

    Quote by Antiquarian
    I feel the story is very flawed, though amusing. Not only is Lawrence ambiguous, but he tells us far too much of the time how someone is thinking. If it's not clear how someone is thinking, then a writer needs to rewrite his work, not tack on an explanation.
    You should understand that all the stories we read for this thread cannot be as advanced as “The Horse-Dealer’s Daughter” and “The Witch a la Mode”. That last story was a hard act to follow. I don’t agree that this story is 'very flawed.' If it were, it would have no merit at all. I think it is an early story, just as Lawrence’s book “Sons and Lovers” is an early novel. Both were written around the same time period. Lawrence liked this short story very much and was quite disappointed it was not published when he submitted it, along with others that year he wrote it. Just because it was published later, does not take away it’s value. Many of the finest stories were not published back in that time period, because or censorship and other restricted attitudes. I almost feel this might have been the case with this story or a possibility. Lawrence called it a ‘wicked little story.’ Many of James Joyce’s stories in Dubliners were frowned on by the publishers; many publishers refused to publish them. It took years for him to have his book "Dubliners" published. The reason this story might have been rejected may have been the child licking Severn's face. I can see how that would be very distasteful in that era and very much misunderstood as to the meaning in this story.

    I don’t see the unclear quality you are referring to Antiquarian; I don’t see it anymore so, in this story than other Lawrence stories we have read. I read the story several times now and I did not see anything unclear about it or anything more I needed to know to understand the story and especially to comprehend the ending.


    "Will you clear baby's things away," she said in the contemptuous tone of a hostile woman."

    Contemptuous tone of a hostile woman should be evident, not explained.
    Well, since you have the MFA in Creative writing, can you enlighten me as to why? I don’t understand the rule of thumb here.

    Quote by ?
    I don't know when the story was written, but if it was a very early story, I can understand why it's unfocused and why it was not published during Lawrence's lifetime. Everything in a short story must related to everything else. In this story, it doesn't.
    How so? That sounds reasonable, but I fail to see what is not related. I don't see lack of focus either.

    Quote by Virgil
    I tend to read the story as having sexual tension too. Without the sexual tension it becomes unclear as to why Severn and Mr. Thomas fight. I tend to see the underlying fight as motivated by subconscious conflicts. But is there in the text? Anti may be right. We may be back filling that information. I don't think Lawrence did a good job here.
    Quote by Antiquarian
    If there's supposed to be sexual tension, I don't think Lawrence did a good job. I just read it as Mrs. Thomas becoming overwrought due to her fear of storms. I do think Edward has a momentary attraction to her, though, that upsets and scares him far more than any storm could. I don't see the fight later as being over the affections of Mrs. Thomas, but over which man is right.
    Quote by Virgil
    Not sexual at all? Hmm, I think at the risk of me seeing phallices everywhere I have to believe there are sexual references.
    I must be the only one thinks Lawrence did do a good job and he subtly set up this scene, with sexual tension, which the storm parellels in it’s own mounting tension, energy/electricity.

    Quote by Virgil
    Perhaps I have. It must be my old age and how I've sublimated all sorts of desires that I now see in texts.
    Yes, no doubt it is that old age creeping up on your Virgil! Next senility sets in. You will probably be distorting all kinds of crazy things by then.

    Quote by Antiquarian
    Well, you're not old. And I was joking about that, of course, Glad to read you've sublimated those desires, though. LOL
    Your are right, Antiquarian, he is not old, just ripe and has an overly active imagination oftimes!

    Quote by Virgil
    I'm old, what's your excuse. What's wrong with pulling in a detail from another part of the story if it helps explain a point on hand? It's ok. I don't want to get too structured here. It's a discussion.
    Nothing that I can see.


    I'm a fiction editor, primarily of short stories. That's my excuse. LOL Seriously, because it hasn't happened yet. We can't try to justify what happens on page three with something that doesn't occur until page nine. We can, of course, but the justification doesn't hold up in most cases, especially not in a linear story. I do think Edward becomes momentarily attracted to Gertie, but only momentarily and it's not something I would call sexual tension. Others do, I don't, which is fine, really. But you're right. I'ts just a casual discussion, not a classroom lecture.
    I pass….I haven’t the insight and the knowledge of a writer, let along the writing genius of Lawrence. I don’t see the attraction as momentary; undoubtably it has been latent in a subconscious way for sometime. Lawrence is a writer well known for his use of delving into the mind and the individual’s subconscious; especially, when it comes to interaction between man and woman; man and man.

    Antiquarian, have you posted any of your short stories yet in your blog? I would like to read some. My library had a volume of William Trevor’s stories, so I took it out today to sample a few. Do you write like Trevor? I will be anxious to read some. I read some of the other Lit Net members stories, including our own Virgil’s. His were quite good; but I like his poetry best.


    Quote by Antiquarian
    Well, I hope this one turns out right or it's going to look like you're contradicting yourself all over the place, Virgil. LOL As you can see, it didn't turn out right, so I had to put my responses in bold, which I don't like to do.
    Yes, and they are overwhelming to me that way; also the bold text feels like you are emphasizing everything (sort of like raising your voice). It helps me to paste it into this Microsoft Word program (offline) and convert the text, but it takes me a long time to do. I hope you can solve the problem eventually. I would think you would have run up against this sort of formatting in editing at your job.

    Originally Posted by Virgil
    As to whether there is is sexual tension, undercurrent, or what ever you want to call, I have to take the description of the iris's scent as "brutal" and "carnal" as being projected in the scenes where subconscious dynamics are going on. There are two planes I think that Lawrence is after. If there is no sexual suggestion, I fail to see the significance of the scenes that lead to the fight.
    I agree with what you say here, Virgil; especially with the use of the words “brutal” and “carnal”. I do think some iris have a scent; not that pleasant but a scent – maybe the scent is brutal and carnal, in a primitive sense.[/quote]

    Quote by Antiquarian
    Men never bicker over anything but the affections of a woman? I don't know. I did think they do, but I'm not positive. LOL
    Virgil does in some threads!

    Edit - Well, I did try the multiple postings thing and it's a mess. I had to go back and put my replies in bold. This is why I don't like the thing.
    Sorry you had no success. Oh well…


    Quotes by Antiquarian
    While I don't see any real sexual tension in the story, I do think there's supposed to be sexual tension. I suppose, as an editor, I'm a more demanding reader than most people are. Editors read to find mistakes and I found quite a few surprising ones in this story, though I also found it amusing.
    You do seem to be a more demanding reader, than most of us. You seem to expect a lot out of the author, even though at the time he was young and not as experienced, as he was later on. I guess we all could find mistakes in anything, if we looked hard enough for them. I didn’t know that was our task here. As you said before, this is a casual discussion. I take the work for what it is worth. I can’t be that strict or demanding about it and pick apart Lawrence’s writing, work by word. Maybe you could make a list of parts or sentences that annoyed you or you felt were written incorrectly; just to satisfy yourself. I make notes often myself for my own benefit.

    I do think the part that says: ...two battles were fought together in the sky is supposed to signify Edward's attraction to Gertie because of her fear and momentary vulnerabilty and Edward's desire not be attracted to Gertie.
    I can go with that idea. I think Lawrence mentioned even more than two storms brewing outside. That would make sense to the story actually.

    Previously, I had agreed with Quark that the two battles were Edward/Mr. Thomas and Gertie/Kate, but Kate's role is now so extraneous, I believe the two battles are the battle in Edward over his attraction to Mrs. Thomas and his desire not to be attracted. And I do see it as that - a momentary attraction to Mrs. Thomas that he doesn't want to admit to himself, but if others want to call it sexual tension, then I'm not arguing with them. People see things how they see them for many reasons and all are valid. We can't all be right all the time, but all opinions can always be valid.
    I agree with this part.

    I certainly think men can bicker over things other than the affections of a woman, and I can see a lot of points to this story other than sexual tension.
    There probably are many other points besides sexual tension in the story. No one said there weren’t.


    Edward enjoys seeing Kate and Gertie at odds. Perhaps he also enjoys seeing Gertie and Joe at odds.
    I saw it as being amused at something, he had no power to change. I don’t think for one minute he enjoyed seeing Gertie and Joe at odds with each other; but maybe I'm wrong.

    I do think Lawrence wanted to insert sexual tension into this story, but like Virgil, I don't find the story at all well crafted. However, as Virgil mentioned, the story wasn't published during Lawrence's lifetime. If he wouldn't have written some lesser stories he wouldn't be human, and he was certainly human, and he certainly wrote some very finely crafted, superlative stories later in his career.
    Disagree with both of you; I do think the story is well-crafted. I defy anyone of us to come up with a story as well crafted as this one. I can’t make that comment, unless I could do better. Yes, he was human and even at an early age many thought of Lawrence as the young genius. His novel “The White Peacock” has many flaws and yet he got his start with that novel; I read it and I overlooked the flaws and found the novel brillant, fascinating. Even early under-developed Lawrence is better than some authors who have remained mediocre. That is exactly true, Lawrence was ‘human’.


    Edit - After thinking about it, I see the story as more of a power struggle than a story with sexual tension, though there's no denying that for a few moments, Edward is attracted to Gertie. I think it's Gertie's fear of the approaching storm and he vulnerabilty that set Edward off more than any truly sexual thing, though.
    It probably is a power struggle in many ways during the duration of the story; such as between the two women; later, no doubt between the two men. I don’t see a power struggle between Mrs.Thomas and Severn; unless you mean her exerting a power over him in a sexual way, by way of suggestion. I guess there is power struggle between Mr. and Mrs. Thomas at the table.

    Quote from story
    "She seemed to him pathetically helpless and bewildered; she was eight years older than he....Both glanced at the window, then at each other. For a moment it was a look of greeting; then his eyes dilated to a smile, wide with recklessness. He felt her waver, lose her composure, become incoherent. Seeing the faint helplessness of coming tears, he felt his heart thud to a crisis. She had her face at her sewing."
    Quote by Antiquarian
    A look of greeting, at least at first. There had not been sexual tension previously, at least to me, and each is rather horrified that they feel that way now.
    Seems that way; but we are not privy to what kind of interaction has taken place before this story begins. On a 'day-to-day' basis perhaps, there was attraction at times, but just in a playful sense; nothing at all serious. I guess then you could say there did not exist sexual tension, until this scene when the two are alone in the room together, prior to the husband returning home late from his meeting.

    I don't feel there's real sexual tension, but I do feel Edward is attracted to Gertie because of her vulnerability, a vulnerability which disappears once Mr. Thomas arrives home.
    So you think it is merely her vulnerability that he is attracted to? I know by now, that you don’t see any sexual tension in this story. I am not even sure who brought up that phrase. Were you the culprit, Virgil?

    I see the story as more a domestic power struggle. Perhaps Lawrence wanted it to be more, and I can see where some people see more, but I feel like Virgil, if Lawrence did want more, then he failed in this story, and that's not a criticism because all the best writers fail at a story from time to time. It's natural and it's human. Lawrence became a writer of magnificent short stories, no doubt about that, but I don't think this one can be counted among the great ones. As Virgil said, it's too ambiguous, too unconnected.
    Well, that is fine if that is how you see it; that is your opinion.
    I do see the sexual attraction and tension; so therefore, I don’t feel Lawrence failed at the story. He was young and I am cutting him a break perhaps, but I don’t see the story as flawed and if it truly is, I don’t think it is flawed enough to ruin my reading or enjoyment of it personally. I haven’t heard any Lawrence scholars say this particular story is a failure and I have read much about this story, this time period in L’s life and the real story this was based upon; all from different sources.

    I am not sure how something can be ‘too ambiguous, too unconnected’. Many of the Chekhov stories, we have been reading, could be acused of the same thing – what about the one we are current discussing? There is much 'ambiguity' in that story and I don’t see where it makes the story a poor work of fictional writing. If anything it makes it fascinating.

    Well, I will have to get to your current posts tomorrow. This took me time and now I am going to watch a movie. Tomorrow I can post more of the new text, also; and comment on that briefly. I will be home all day.
    Last edited by Janine; 06-12-2008 at 01:16 AM.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  4. #2074
    Pièce de Résistance Scheherazade's Avatar
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    Re. quoting issues:

    It would be great if everyone used the "quote" functions while posting because it does help reading the posts. It would make it much easier for anyone reading, especially for us Moderators who read almost every single post in this Forum.

    Here is a little "how to" (if you have any further questions, please do not hesitate one of the Moderators):

    - To quote a post or a part of it, please type [-quote] at the beginning of a quote and [-/quote] at the end (withour the -). It is very similar to using [i] or [b] function on the forum but replaced with [quote], instead.

    - To add the name of the poster to your quote, type [-quote=Username] at the beginning of a quote (without the -).

    - To quote more than one post in your reply, click the icon on the right bottom corner of each post you would like to quote. It looks like this if you've clicked it, then click Post Reply button, they show up automatically in text field. Then you can add your comments at the end of each quote, which will be marked with [-/quote] (without the -).

    You can practise using these functions in your posts and edit them when/if necessary.

    This is a wonderful thread that hosts one of the liveliest and prolonged discussions on the Forum. However, recently its image has been tarnished by personal differences, which is why I am now asking you all to put all these behind or deal with them via PMs. Persistence in similar vein will lead to temporary/permanent thread closure.
    ~
    "It is not that I am mad; it is only that my head is different from yours.”
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  5. #2075
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antiquarian View Post
    I agree about the layers of civilization. You've said it well. I don't need to add a thing, except to say that I found it heavy-handed about the carnal scent of the iris as well. Iris don't have much scent. Strange, he did the same thing in "Odour of Chrysanthemums" and they don't have much scent, either. Oh, well. I do agree completely about the central theme of the story. And I agree that being shut up together in the storm, Edward develops an attraction to Gertie. Maybe we're getting hung up on semantics and we shouldn't do that. So, while I don't see sexual tension throughout the story, yes, I see it in that scene.
    I do think that what I put in bold in that post is the heart of the story.

    Well, if she sounds like Frieda....LOL And you would know, having studied Lawrence.
    I'm not claiming that he was basing the character on Frieda. I'm not sure if he had even met Frieda when he wrote this story. I would have to check a timeline. But Mrs Thomas does seem to have a number of similar characteristics with Frieda, including a husband who doesn't pay her much attention.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janine View Post
    I can buy part of that but gentleman could probably be changed to 'lady's man.'
    I am not. Let's not give anyone any false impressions.

    I agree or at least sexual attraction as some point. I also think each scene is extremely well written. I have no qualms with the writing here. I don't see that it fails at all to express what is going on in the house.
    My problem is that we have to project too much into the scenes. Like I said there are two planes that Lawrence is trying to dramatise, the surface "civilized" plane, and an subconscious plane of pseudo freudian desires of the id. I think that's what he's referring to in the two levels of the thunderstorm. The subconscious plane is a primitive ideal, the old Adam.

    Quote:
    The question I would say is a struggle for what? But yes Lawrence leaves it (I believe, and perhaps I'm wrong) as a subconscious attraction.
    Doesn't he do that often though in his writing?
    Yes, I just don't think he's as successful in this story. I really don't have that much of a problem with the Severn/Mrs. Thomas scene, but the Kate and the child scenes are frankly confusing within the context of the story. Like I said individually they are well written. How do they relate to the fight scene or to the possible Severn/Mrs. Thomas relationship? I can make certain leaps of faith and guess, but I do not think it's clear.

    Could you explain what you mean by heavy handed. Is that another literary term I am not familiar with?
    Too obvious; he tells too much rather than dramatise. It's probably the only moment in the story where L is heavy handed. Other times he's just too subtle that it becomes vague, as I explanin in the paragraph above. I suspect that as L was writing this, he realized he was being too vague and decided to be heavy handed on this point to make sure.

    Virgil, I think those are interesting thoughts and intelligent and all posibilities. I am not totally sure of their validity but like I said it sounds possible. Maybe later you can expound on this idea. I can see what you are leading up to here and I think you are on the right track.
    Ok.

    Where does the text say she is husky? Just curious. The woman who this character was fashioned after was Mrs. Jones, and not Frieda. You are so funny, Virgil, you are always thinking it is Frieda. Is that like your phallic symbol fetishes? You always picture Frieda also from her worst photos after she lived with L for many years. Her earlier photos show a rather pretty woman. I guess living with a genius is not easy.
    I believe you it's not based on Frieda, but there are uncanny similariites. I think it says she's large built but now I'm not sure, but here are a couple of passages that would suggest it:
    The mother took the baby to carry her to bed. Mrs. Thomas was thirty-four years old, full-bosomed and ripe. She had dark hair that twined lightly round her low, white brow. She had a clear complexion, and beautiful brows, and dark-blue eyes. The lower part of her face was heavy.
    Mrs. Thomas watched his fine mouth lifted for kissing. She leaned forward, lowering the baby, and suddenly, by a quick change in his eyes, she knew he was aware of her heavy woman's breasts approaching down to him. The wild rogue of a baby bent her face to his, and then, instead of kissing him, suddenly licked his cheek with her wet, soft tongue. He started back in aversion, and his eyes and his teeth flashed with a dangerous laugh.
    Quote Originally Posted by Antiquarian View Post
    Regarding the story being well written or not, I don't care if it's well written or not. It's still amusing and interesting. I've stated that. I've also stated I think Lawrence a superlative writer, especially in the area of the short story.
    It is a fun story. That was my first reaction. As we have analysized it to death, I think it's flaws have surfaced, at least for me. Like Janine says, this is a young writer and we should cut him a break. Even at my age now i couldn't write as good as this story is at Lawrence's age. If I came across this story in a current magazine, I would say what a good writer this is. I think we are being a little overly picky, but we are here to disect.

    Janine, I don't think anyone is saying this story is crap. It's just not upper tier level. That's all.

    I always allow others their opinions and respect them, but I feel mine are being misconstrued here. Please show me where I've been inconsistent as I don't see it. I am in no way saying I'm right. Everyone else could be right and I could be wrong and that's fine with me. I don't think it's even a question of right and wrong. I just think I should be allowed to my own opinion and not have people say I've changed it several times.
    I don't think anyone is disrespecting you Anti. But this is a dialogue between all of us, and perhaps we are being super critical of all our statements, just lkike we're doiing to poor Lawrence's story.

    I no doubt am a very demanding reader. I do not contest that statement one bit. I am probably one of the most demanding readers people will ever encounter. I'm also demanding with myself when I write. I'm afriad I don't post my work here. People ask to read it and say they want to make a comment about it, then don't, so now I don't post it.
    Very good. We all have certain traits and abilities we bring to the dialogue. In the end all our abilities, mine, yours, janine's, Dark Muses's, and Quark's add up for 1) an interesting conversation and 2)a rounded understanding of the story. I highlight the word "rounded" because all of our readings add up to a better understanding of the work.

    No, I've always said the story is not about "sexual tension" and I maintain that it's not about "sexual tension." I have never wavered from that or from the fact that Edward only feels a primitive, but repugnant and fleeting, attraction to Gertie Thomas. That, to me, does not constitute "sexual tension."

    I do not think this is a story of "sexual tension." To me, on episode of primitive attraction that lasts a minute or so, isn't "sexual tension." If it is to others, that's fine with me, but please allow me to have my own opinion and not say I keep changing it when you said you can't even make sense of my posts.
    I can definitely see where your reading it this way. I do disagree, but I see where you're coming from.

    Janine, it's fine with me if not every story measures up to "The Horse-Dealer's Daughter." Not many stories, from any author, do. In fact, I think "The Old Adam" is good to look at because it shows how much Lawrence evolved. And it's an amusing story in its own right. I think the story was a good choice.
    And so do I. Has anyone bought the audio. I did, and thoroughly enjoyed it. I love reading while an audio of the text is being read. I've said this in many places on lit net. I find audio readings very entertaining. But I do need to read along. Many people just listen, and I can't focus that well with just a reader. But a reader with the text in front of me really amplifies the writing.

    I think sometimes we tend to go round and round in this thread because people want others to agree with them and I don't personally think total agreement is necessary.
    Sometimes. Sometimes we are just questioning each other. It's trying to understand how the other person arrived at that conclusion. But sometimes we do press it to far. I think we're all guilty of that.

    One point about the use of flowers and how irises (and Mums in another story) don't have odor and yet Lawrence says they do. I can't quite answer that. But I must say Lawrence knew his botony. In fact I think that's what he taught in school when he was a teacher before he was a writer. There are flowers in just about every work he wrote. I have to think that the irises and mums he's referring to do have an odor, perhaps in some version in England. I don't know. But Lawrence really, really knew flowers. It doesn't strike me as something he would make up. It's probably something my lack of expertise can't pin down.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  6. #2076
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    If people don't mind, especially Janine, I would like to take over the leadership of this story. I think I will make it go faster. Is that alright?
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  7. #2077
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Virgil, that is just fine with me; would be great if you would take over the story. Actually, I asked Virgil to do so in a PM last night. I don't mind admitting it here now; I am quite resigned to the fact I am simply going to bail out for the rest of this discussion. I'll have to consider about continuing with other discussions in this thread. I definitely need a break; I think I said that about 3 months back, but then we ended up continuing. I tried to do a good job contributing to this thread, within my own capabilities, so I am satisified with that.

    I tried my best to pick a good story this time, that everyone would enjoy in a lighter way, sorry it did not turn out quite that way. I am glad to hear that you, Virgil, downloaded the story and have enjoyed it; that was one reason I chose this story (of course, I reviewed it first; liked it personally). I hope to download it myself for my collection; I really enjoy listening to those audiobooks. I love the one of "Women in Love" and actually am listening to it a third time. Kind of crazy, huh? But the prose is so beautiful.

    I am truly sorry to leave this discussion group, but I just can't deal with it, at this time. I am happy this thread has been so successful and run as long as it has; a year with over 2000 posts is really impressive, I think.

    This is a wonderful thread that hosts one of the liveliest and prolonged discussions on the Forum.
    Scherherazade, Since I have been a part of this thread since the beginning, I want to thank you for this compliment; it makes me personally very happy to hear. I think we discussed over 10 stories and they all were good discussions.

    I agree about 'tarnished' (I will spare requoting). That saddens me greatly; no doubt I contributed to that myself; this is why I made the decision to leave; I really do not wish to be combatant in anyway.
    It would sadden me more to see the thread closed for any reason; so leaving feels like my best option at this time.

    I would rather leave now, while I still love Lawrence's work and don't see his work as a negative thing. I have made it my goal to learn and study as much as I can about the author and the short stories (most of which I have now read) are only a small part of my own independent study.

    I want to extend my best for the remainder of the discussion to everyone here. No hard feelings really. I am quite sad to leave the discussion, but like I said, it is a small percentage of my own studies on the author.
    Last edited by Janine; 06-12-2008 at 04:26 PM.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  8. #2078
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janine View Post
    Virgil, that is just fine with me; would be great if you would take over the story. Actually, I asked Virgil to do so in a PM last night. I don't mind admitting it here now; I am quite resigned to the fact I am simply going to bail out for the rest of this discussion. I'll have to consider about continuing with other discussions in this thread. I definitely need a break; I think I said that about 3 months back, but then we ended up continuing. I tried to do a good job contributing to this thread, within my own capabilities, so I am satisified with that.
    Oh I didn't realize you were not going to participate at all. Ok I understand.

    So let's get on with looking at the text. I will post whole sections at a time. Breaking into subsections I think makes it harder to see the big picture of the story; of course on the flip side we may not be able to focus on the details as much. So there are pluses and minues to both approaches. As it turns out completing this section is still not that large a chunk. Ok, here it is.

    Mrs. Thomas went very pale. She tried not to look at the window, yet, when she felt the lightning blench the lamplight, she watched, and each time a flash leaped on the window, she shuddered. Severn, all unconsciously, was smiling with roused eyes.

    "You don't like it?" he said, at last, gently.

    "Not much," she answered, and he laughed.

    "Yet all the storms are a fair way off," he said. "Not one near enough to touch us."

    "No, but," she replied, at last laying her hands in her lap, and turning to him, "it makes me feel worked up. You don't know how it makes me feel, as if I couldn't contain myself."

    She made a helpless gesture with her hand. He was watching her closely. She seemed to him pathetically helpless and bewildered; she was eight years older than he. He smiled in a strange, alert fashion, like a man who feels in jeopardy. She bent over her work, stitching nervously. There was a silence in which neither of them could breathe freely.

    Presently a bigger flash than usual whitened through the yellow lamplight. Both glanced at the window, then at each other. For a moment it was a look of greeting; then his eyes dilated to a smile, wide with recklessness. He felt her waver, lose her composure, become incoherent. Seeing the faint helplessness of coming tears, he felt his heart thud to a crisis. She had her face at her sewing.

    Severn sank in his chair, half suffocated by the beating of his heart. Yet, time after time, as the flashes came, they looked at each other, till in the end they both were panting, and afraid, not of the lightning but of themselves and of each other.

    He was so much moved that he became conscious of his perturbation. "What the deuce is up?" he asked himself, wondering. At twenty-seven, he was quite chaste. Being highly civilised, he prized women for their intuition, and because of the delicacy with which he could transfer to them his thoughts and feelings, without cumbrous argument. From this to a state of passion he could only proceed by fine gradations, and such a procedure he had never begun. Now he was startled, astonished, perturbed, yet still scarcely conscious of his whereabouts. There was a pain in his chest that made him pant, and an involuntary tension in his arms, as if he must press someone to his breast. But the idea that this someone was Mrs. Thomas would have shocked him too much had he formed it. His passion had run on subconsciously, till now it had come to such a pitch it must drag his conscious soul into allegiance. This, however, would probably never happen; he would not yield allegiance, and blind emotion, in this direction, could not carry him alone.
    Several points. I'm not quite sure why Mrs. Thomas is so afraid of the thunder. Yes there are people that are, but why her here? And doesn't it contrast with Kate who doesn't seem to flinch on the thunder? Is it to signal that Mrs. Thomas is afraid of that subconscious plane, her primitive nature? Is it to show a female weakness at the primitive level, a dependency to the male? "She made a helpless gesture with her hand. He was watching her closely. She seemed to him pathetically helpless and bewildered" Not clear to me. What are your thoughts?

    This paragraph gets to the heart of the tension (whether sexual or not ):
    Severn sank in his chair, half suffocated by the beating of his heart. Yet, time after time, as the flashes came, they looked at each other, till in the end they both were panting, and afraid, not of the lightning but of themselves and of each other.
    And then we have the paragraph we've focused on before, where Severn questions himself ("What the deuce is up?" he asked himself, wondering.) about his sexual arousal. And then we get a clear statement of what've I've been calling the two planes of consciousness:
    There was a pain in his chest that made him pant, and an involuntary tension in his arms, as if he must press someone to his breast. But the idea that this someone was Mrs. Thomas would have shocked him too much had he formed it. His passion had run on subconsciously, till now it had come to such a pitch it must drag his conscious soul into allegiance. This, however, would probably never happen; he would not yield allegiance, and blind emotion, in this direction, could not carry him alone.
    Interesting Lawrence even uses the word "tension." Like I said earlier, Lawrence felt the need to be heavy handed here, otherwise the theme of the story would have been indeciperable.

    Another interesting point, perhaps already stated by one of us, is that he will not act on his desires. At least that's what his conscious mind says. He intends to hold on to the mast (is that a good way to say it?) of civilization. Interesting, Severn doesn't repress it with Mr. Thomas and they conclude on good terms, wile he will not act with Mrs. Thomas and they end on frustrated terms.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  9. #2079
    Of Subatomic Importance Quark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    In the end all our abilities, mine, yours, janine's, Dark Muses's, and Quark's add up for 1) an interesting conversation and 2)a rounded understanding of the story. I highlight the word "rounded" because all of our readings add up to a better understanding of the work.
    Those are certainly two of the advantages to discussing the stories in the L thread. I've always found the conversation interesting and argument enlightening. With that in mind, let me "round" parts of your last post. First, this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    I really don't have that much of a problem with the Severn/Mrs. Thomas scene, but the Kate and the child scenes are frankly confusing within the context of the story. Like I said individually they are well written. How do they relate to the fight scene or to the possible Severn/Mrs. Thomas relationship? I can make certain leaps of faith and guess, but I do not think it's clear.
    I didn't have the same problems understanding Kate and Mary. The Kate and Gertie fight mirrors the Severn-husband fight. You're right that Lawrence doesn't integrate her character into the plot, but that's only because it would be repetitive to do so. After we see the Severn-husband fight it's instantly clear why Kate is leaving. The reader doesn't need to see her fight played out; we've already seen what that would look like. Meanwhile, Mary shows the temptation and repulsion of desire that we later see in the wife. Gertie attracts Severn only to reject him later. Mary does the same. I didn't think her role--or Kate's--was in any way ambiguous. In fact, I thought we agreed on the points I made above.

    One other comment on this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    Like I said there are two planes that Lawrence is trying to dramatise, the surface "civilized" plane, and an subconscious plane of pseudo freudian desires of the id. I think that's what he's referring to in the two levels of the thunderstorm. The subconscious plane is a primitive ideal, the old Adam.
    That's well put. Severn's inner struggle between these two planes is particularly dwelt on. I'm surprised you didn't like this part, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janine View Post
    I am simply going to bail out for the rest of this discussion.
    You've certainly earned a break, but don't think that anyone here is pushing you out. We're all sorry to lose you. Hopefully, you can come back soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janine View Post
    I am happy this thread has been so successful and run as long as it has; a year with over 2000 posts is really impressive, I think.
    Yes, it's been the busiest literature thread on the entire forum. (I did a brief check). It's also a close second for the most entertaining--right after the Chekhov Short Story Thread (CSST).
    "Par instants je suis le Pauvre Navire
    [...] Par instants je meurs la mort du Pecheur
    [...] O mais! par instants"

    --"Birds in the Night" by Paul Verlaine (1844-1896). Join the discussion here: http://www.online-literature.com/for...5&goto=newpost

  10. #2080
    The Poetic Warrior Dark Muse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    Several points. I'm not quite sure why Mrs. Thomas is so afraid of the thunder. Yes there are people that are, but why her here? And doesn't it contrast with Kate who doesn't seem to flinch on the thunder? Is it to signal that Mrs. Thomas is afraid of that subconscious plane, her primitive nature? Is it to show a female weakness at the primitive level, a dependency to the male? "She made a helpless gesture with her hand. He was watching her closely. She seemed to him pathetically helpless and bewildered" Not clear to me. What are your thoughts?
    I think it is a sign of her weakness, perhaps as a woman, she is seen as week compared to Severn in the room with her whom does not seem to be bothered by the storm but rather more amused by it and her fear of it.

    It could also be her apprehension and fear to the tension within the air, and what the storm signifies in the events that are yet to come. It seems to be very uncharacteristic of her character, as normally she is seen as being very overbearing and dominant, so perhaps it is showing her vulnerability here.

    He smiled in a strange, alert fashion, like a man who feels in jeopardy. She bent over her work, stitching nervously. There was a silence in which neither of them could breathe freely.
    I found these lines interesting. Perhaps it is seeing her in this moment of vulnerability of weakness that sparks his attraction to her.

    Presently a bigger flash than usual whitened through the yellow lamplight. Both glanced at the window, then at each other. For a moment it was a look of greeting; then his eyes dilated to a smile, wide with recklessness. He felt her waver, lose her composure, become incoherent. Seeing the faint helplessness of coming tears, he felt his heart thud to a crisis. She had her face at her sewing.
    Here Severn does seem drawn to this softer side of Mrs. Thomas, seeing her in a different light, or new element than he is use to seeing her. It also seems to be an example of the weakness of the feminine compared to the masculine, she is being cast very much like the damsel in distress in this interaction with Severn, compare to how she than later acts.

    Also I found the use of the word recklessness interesting here.

    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before. ~ Edgar Allan Poe

  11. #2081
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

    Ok, the next section is Mr. Thomas arrives home and the events of the evening prior to bringing down Kate's box.

    Towards eleven o'clock Mr. Thomas came in.

    "I wonder you come home at all," Severn heard Mrs. Thomas say as her husband stepped indoors.

    "I left the office at half-past ten," the voice of Thomas replied, disagreeably.

    "Oh, don't try to tell me that old tale," the woman answered contemptuously.

    "I didn't try anything at all, Gertie," he replied with sarcasm. "Your question was answered."

    Severn imagined him bowing with affected, magisterial dignity, and he smiled. Mr. Thomas was something in the law.

    Mrs. Thomas left her husband in the hall, came and sat down again at table, where she and Severn had just finished supper, both of them reading the while.

    Thomas came in, flushed very red. He was of middle stature, a thickly-built man of forty, good-looking. But he had grown round-shouldered with thrusting forward his chin in order to look the aggressive, strong-jawed man. He had a good jaw; but his mouth was small and nervously pinched. His brown eyes were of the emotional, affectionate sort, lacking pride or any austerity.

    He did not speak to Severn nor Severn to him. Although as a rule the two men were very friendly, there came these times when, for no reason whatever, they were sullenly hostile. Thomas sat down heavily, and reached his bottle of beer. His hands were thick, and in their movement rudimentary. Severn watched the thick fingers grasp the drinking-glass as if it were a treacherous enemy.

    "Have you had supper, Gertie?" he asked, in tones that sounded like an insult. He could not bear that these two should sit reading as if he did not exist.

    "Yes," she replied, looking up at him in impatient surprise. "It's late enough." Then she buried herself again in her book.

    Severn ducked low and grinned. Thomas swallowed a mouthful of beer.

    "I wish you could answer my questions, Gertie, without superfluous detail," he said nastily, thrusting out his chin at her as if cross-examining.

    "Oh," she said indifferently, not looking up. "Wasn't my answer right, then?"

    "Quite--I thank you," he answered, bowing with great sarcasm. It was utterly lost on his wife.

    "Hm-hm!" she murmured in abstraction, continuing to read.

    Silence resumed. Severn was grinning to himself, chuckling.

    "I had a compliment paid me to-night, Gertie," said Thomas, quite amicably, after a while. He still ignored Severn.

    "Hm-hm!" murmured his wife. This was a well-known beginning. Thomas valiantly struggled on with his courtship of his wife, swallowing his spleen.

    "Councillor Jarndyce, in full committee--Are you listening, Gertie?"

    "Yes," she replied, looking up for a moment.

    "You know Councillor Jarndyce's style," Thomas continued, in the tone of a man determined to be patient and affable: "--the courteous Old English Gentleman--"

    "Hm-hm!" replied Mrs. Thomas.

    "He was speaking in reply to . . ." Thomas gave innumerable wearisome details, which no one heeded.

    "Then he bowed to me, then to the Chairman--'I am compelled to say, Mr. Chairman, that we have one cause for congratulation; we are inestimably fortunate in one member of our staff; there is one point of which we can always be sure--the point of law; and it is an important point, Mr. Chairman.'

    "He bowed to the Chairman, he bowed to me. And you should have heard the applause all round that Council Chamber--that great, horseshoe table, you don't know how impressive it is. And every face turned to me, and all round the board: 'Hear--Hear!' You don't know what respect I command in business, Mrs. Thomas."

    "Then let it suffice you," said Mrs. Thomas, calmly indifferent.

    Mr. Thomas bit his bread-and-butter.

    "The fat-head's had two drops of Scotch, so he's drawing on his imagination," thought Severn chuckling deeply.

    "I thought you said there was no meeting to-night," Mrs. Thomas suddenly and innocently remarked after a while.

    "There was a meeting, in camera," replied her husband, drawing himself up with official dignity. His excessive and wounded dignity convulsed Severn; the lie disgusted Mrs. Thomas in spite of herself.

    Presently Thomas, always courting his wife and insultingly overlooking Severn, raised a point of politics, passed a lordly opinion very offensive to the young man. Severn had risen, stretched himself, and laid down his book. He was leaning on the mantelpiece in an indifferent manner, as if he scarcely noticed the two talkers. But hearing Thomas pronounce like a boor upon the Woman's Bill, he roused himself, and coolly contradicted his landlord. Mrs. Thomas shot a look of joy at the white-clad young man who lounged so scornfully on the hearth. Thomas cracked his knuckles one after another, and lowered his brown eyes, which were full of hate. After a sufficient pause, for his timidity was stronger than his impulse, he replied with a phrase that sounded final. Severn flipped the sense out of it with a few words. In the argument Severn, more cultured and far more nimble-witted than his antagonist, who hauled up his answers with a lawyer's show of invincibility, but who had not any fineness of perception, merely spiked his opponent's pieces and smiled at him. Also the young man enjoyed himself by looking down scornfully, straight into the brown eyes of his senior all the time, so that Thomas writhed.

    Mrs. Thomas, meantime, took her husband's side against women, without reserve. Severn was angry; he was scornfully angry with her. Mrs. Thomas glanced at him from time to time, a little ecstasy lighting her fine blue eyes. The irony of her part was delicious to her. If she had sided with Severn, that young man would have pitied the forlorn man, and been gentle with him.

    The battle of words had got quieter and more intense. Mrs. Thomas made no move to check it. At last Severn was aware he and Thomas were both getting overheated. Thomas had doubled and dodged painfully, like a half-frenzied rabbit that will not realise it is trapped. Finally his efforts had moved even his opponent to pity. Mrs. Thomas was not pitiful. She scorned her husband's dexterity of argument, when his intellectual dishonesty was so evident to her. Severn uttered his last phrases, and would say no more. Then Thomas cracked his knuckles one after the other, turned aside, consumed with morbid humiliation, and there was silence.

    "I will go to bed," said Severn. He would have spoken some conciliatory words to his landlord; he lingered with that purpose; but he could not bring his throat to utter his purpose.

    "Oh, before you go, do you mind, Mr. Severn, helping Mr. Thomas down with Kate's box? You may be gone before he's up in the morning, and the cab comes at ten. Do you mind?"
    We get a description of Mr. Thomas here.
    Thomas came in, flushed very red. He was of middle stature, a thickly-built man of forty, good-looking. But he had grown round-shouldered with thrusting forward his chin in order to look the aggressive, strong-jawed man. He had a good jaw; but his mouth was small and nervously pinched. His brown eyes were of the emotional, affectionate sort, lacking pride or any austerity.
    It reminds me of a neanderthal. But what's key is the "lacking pride or any austerity." He is one not layered in civilization. By jove, he I think must be the old adam. What do you guys think?

    Here's more interesting stuff;
    He did not speak to Severn nor Severn to him. Although as a rule the two men were very friendly, there came these times when, for no reason whatever, they were sullenly hostile. Thomas sat down heavily, and reached his bottle of beer. His hands were thick, and in their movement rudimentary. Severn watched the thick fingers grasp the drinking-glass as if it were a treacherous enemy.
    I love it, he is an ape:"thick hands," rudimmentary movement. I hadn't picked up on this in my other reads. Perhaps he would enjoy my clerihews. If you don't know what I mean, go to my current blog entry.

    And really I love the dialogue next between Thomas and Gertie. It's worth repeating:
    "Have you had supper, Gertie?" he asked, in tones that sounded like an insult. He could not bear that these two should sit reading as if he did not exist.

    "Yes," she replied, looking up at him in impatient surprise. "It's late enough." Then she buried herself again in her book.

    Severn ducked low and grinned. Thomas swallowed a mouthful of beer.

    "I wish you could answer my questions, Gertie, without superfluous detail," he said nastily, thrusting out his chin at her as if cross-examining.

    "Oh," she said indifferently, not looking up. "Wasn't my answer right, then?"

    "Quite--I thank you," he answered, bowing with great sarcasm. It was utterly lost on his wife.
    My wife swears I talk like this too sometimes, as if I'm insulting. It must be my neanderthal moments. Or women just hear such stuff in their minds. Of course I'm drinking wine usually, not beer.

    But throughout the scene there is a bond between Severn and Mrs. Thomas and stand in opposition to Mr. Thomas. I found the line, "Mr. Thomas bit his bread-and-butter" very interesting. A rather innocuous line but it does tie back to the child biting into bread and butter too: "She sat on his knee in her high-waisted night-gown, eating her piece of bread-and-butter with savage little bites of resentment." Now whle Mr. thomas doesn't eat with "savage" bites, the tone of his voice is definitely savage. I do think there is a clear tie. Thomas is supposed to be linked with the precivilized.

    And look at Severn's reaction to Thomas:
    "The fat-head's had two drops of Scotch, so he's drawing on his imagination," thought Severn chuckling deeply.
    We've talked about what's not great about the story, I'd like to say how masterfully Lawrence handles the Severn character. He changes during the course of the story. He's a young man in a white clothing and holding a tennis racket at the beginning, but by the end he's closer to Mr. Thomas, the neanderthal, and Mrs. Thomas has been pushed to the side. That movement is very skillful and really does amplify the central theme. No heavy handedness there.

    What's really interesting, and again it just caught my eye, is that the discussion of politics is over woman's liberation.
    Presently Thomas, always courting his wife and insultingly overlooking Severn, raised a point of politics, passed a lordly opinion very offensive to the young man. Severn had risen, stretched himself, and laid down his book. He was leaning on the mantelpiece in an indifferent manner, as if he scarcely noticed the two talkers. But hearing Thomas pronounce like a boor upon the Woman's Bill, he roused himself, and coolly contradicted his landlord. Mrs. Thomas shot a look of joy at the white-clad young man who lounged so scornfully on the hearth. Thomas cracked his knuckles one after another, and lowered his brown eyes, which were full of hate. After a sufficient pause, for his timidity was stronger than his impulse, he replied with a phrase that sounded final. Severn flipped the sense out of it with a few words. In the argument Severn, more cultured and far more nimble-witted than his antagonist, who hauled up his answers with a lawyer's show of invincibility, but who had not any fineness of perception, merely spiked his opponent's pieces and smiled at him. Also the young man enjoyed himself by looking down scornfully, straight into the brown eyes of his senior all the time, so that Thomas writhed.
    For those that may not know, Lawrence was pretty much anti-feminist. He associates woman's liberation with civilization and the discontent from civilization and in some cases the reason against civilization. The feminist critics do hate Lawrence.

    Interesting that Mrs. Thomas atcually takes her husband's side in the political argument:
    Mrs. Thomas, meantime, took her husband's side against women, without reserve. Severn was angry; he was scornfully angry with her. Mrs. Thomas glanced at him from time to time, a little ecstasy lighting her fine blue eyes. The irony of her part was delicious to her. If she had sided with Severn, that young man would have pitied the forlorn man, and been gentle with him.
    But I think we see that the conflict has finally been engaged (Severn and Thomas) which result in the climatic fight. I'll conclude with this wonderful paragraph that sets up the fight that will ensue:
    The battle of words had got quieter and more intense. Mrs. Thomas made no move to check it. At last Severn was aware he and Thomas were both getting overheated. Thomas had doubled and dodged painfully, like a half-frenzied rabbit that will not realise it is trapped. Finally his efforts had moved even his opponent to pity. Mrs. Thomas was not pitiful. She scorned her husband's dexterity of argument, when his intellectual dishonesty was so evident to her. Severn uttered his last phrases, and would say no more. Then Thomas cracked his knuckles one after the other, turned aside, consumed with morbid humiliation, and there was silence.
    Boy that is good writing.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  12. #2082
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Hahaha, very good Anti. The subtext is there. I don't know how one can teach that to a writer. I have no idea how to write fiction like that. That's why I always call Lawrence such a natural.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  13. #2083
    The Poetic Warrior Dark Muse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    It reminds me of a neanderthal. But what's key is the "lacking pride or any austerity." He is one not layered in civilization. By jove, he I think must be the old adam. What do you guys think?
    That is an interesting thought. Mr. Thomas being the "Old Adam" but it does make sense, as Severn is man after the fall, he is more aware of morality, and sin, while Mr. Thomas does seem to be more primitive than Severn is.

    He did not speak to Severn nor Severn to him. Although as a rule the two men were very friendly, there came these times when, for no reason whatever, they were sullenly hostile
    Though I do not belive they have ever acutally fought before, they clearly have a history of hostilty to each other. Perhaps the moment of the fight is something that has been building up for a time now. And with the talk of the storm, well perhaps finally something did just snap, and a preassure was released. It could also be why they were able to be friends after. For they finally confronted whatever was between them instead of habording it away.

    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    I found the line, "Mr. Thomas bit his bread-and-butter" very interesting. A rather innocuous line but it does tie back to the child biting into bread and butter too: "She sat on his knee in her high-waisted night-gown, eating her piece of bread-and-butter with savage little bites of resentment." Now whle Mr. thomas doesn't eat with "savage" bites, the tone of his voice is definitely savage. I do think there is a clear tie. Thomas is supposed to be linked with the precivilized.
    Ineresting observation, but a good point. I can see how Mr. Thomas might be more linked to the child. Or rather more like the child, though we never acutally see Mr. Thomas and the child together. And there is no indication they have much of a relationship with each other as he is always away from home and the child seems bonded to Severn. But thier natures are more the same than the others in the house.


    The battle of words had got quieter and more intense. Mrs. Thomas made no move to check it. At last Severn was aware he and Thomas were both getting overheated. Thomas had doubled and dodged painfully, like a half-frenzied rabbit that will not realise it is trapped. Finally his efforts had moved even his opponent to pity. Mrs. Thomas was not pitiful. She scorned her husband's dexterity of argument, when his intellectual dishonesty was so evident to her. Severn uttered his last phrases, and would say no more. Then Thomas cracked his knuckles one after the other, turned aside, consumed with morbid humiliation, and there was silence.
    This very much seems to refelct the thunderstom, and reminds me of the scene with the storm. The way in which it says "the battle of words" makes me think of how the storm was said to be two storms at battle.

    One thing I did notice, though I do not know if it is meant to mean anything, but with the relgious nature of the story it did strike me as currious. There is never at any point more than three people together in the room.

    Though sometimes it is only two of them, never more than three.

    First it is the child, Severn, and Mrs. Thomas, and than the child is removed, and Kate enters, and it becomes Kate, Severn and Mrs. Thomas, than Kate leaves the secene and Mr. Thomas enters, and so it is Mrs. Thomas, Mr Thomas, and Severn.

    And twice within the story it does point out that there are three of them together

    The first time it says

    All three stood a moment watching the trains pass
    and the next time it says:

    The three were silent becasue of the baby

    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before. ~ Edgar Allan Poe

  14. #2084
    yes, that's me, your friendly Moderator 💚 Logos's Avatar
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    Ok, [lots of thoughts in my head right now!] but just for now ... I am going to post this information here because a few have mentioned their desire to keep a record of this thread. [These instructions are for when viewing the site in the Firefox browser. Internet Explorer browser will act similarly; I can amend later when I have more time to check this out in IE to make sure of this however.]

    There are a few different ways you can save a copy of a *page* from this thread to your computer hard drive, or, you can print a hard copy of a page. [If you want to save more than one page, of course you have to follow these steps for *each* page of the thread you wish to save.]

    How to print to paper a page from the thread:

    If you want to print a colour version of the page as-is, with all the lovely LitNet colour scheme, icons, smilies, avatars, images, etc, click on the "File" menu @ top left hand corner of screen and select "Print".

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    errrk, the "Email this page" option does not seem to work right now...lol...

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    If you want to save a copy of a page from this thread to your computer hard drive:

    First decide *where* on your computer you want to save the file. You might want to set up a folder in your documents folder called "LitNet D. H. Lawrence discussion" or something like that.

    Then, when viewing the page you want to save, in top left hand corner click "File" then "Save Page As"; a pop window prompts you to select the location where you want to save it. So, where it says "Save In" at the top of the pop up window, click on the drop down menu arrow on right [pointing down] to find on your computer the location where your "LitNet D. H. Lawrence discussion" folder is. The path to it might be, say, "My Computer", "Local Disk", "My Documents", "Lit Net", then "LitNet D. H. Lawrence discussion". So double click that folder in the drop down menu so it's name appears in the window beside "Save In".

    The default "File Name" in window at bottom of pop up window might be "showthread.php"--you probably want to amend this to say "Page 145 [or whichever page it is you are wanting to save] so that if you save more than one page they appear in your folder in chronological sequence. So now you can save the page as a "Web Page, complete" which will give you all of the colours, avatars, icons, images, text, etc. [some of which is saved in an additional yellow folder so just leave that alone]; or, you can save the page as "Web Page, HTML only" which does *not* give you all the avatars or icons etc. If you save the page as "Text Only" it becomes a jambled mess of pure plain text, no colour, no images, no spacing so I don't recommend.

    Another way to save a page, in top left hand corner click "Edit" --> "Select All" then right-click your mouse on the page and select "Copy", then open a Microsoft Word document or other such similar word processing document in the folder you have set up for this, click "Edit" in top menu, then select "Paste".

    ok, its late, I think this is clear and correct, sorry for yet another off-topic post let me know if it makes sense.

    cheers,
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  15. #2085
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Muse View Post
    One thing I did notice, though I do not know if it is meant to mean anything, but with the relgious nature of the story it did strike me as currious. There is never at any point more than three people together in the room.

    Though sometimes it is only two of them, never more than three.

    First it is the child, Severn, and Mrs. Thomas, and than the child is removed, and Kate enters, and it becomes Kate, Severn and Mrs. Thomas, than Kate leaves the secene and Mr. Thomas enters, and so it is Mrs. Thomas, Mr Thomas, and Severn.

    And twice within the story it does point out that there are three of them together
    That is an interesting observation. I don't know what to make of it. Perhaps just coincidence.


    Logos - Thanks for all that. I didn't know we could do all that. I'm glad you provided that.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

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