What if there was no god?

[NikolaiI]

Niko, although the quote was a transpositional error, it confirms your wrong judgment, argument and knowledge in the subject. It's now no use arguing further as you havnt read Spinoza or other philosophers for that sake. Bye

Reproaching God
By Anon

An orphan girl wearing tattered and dirty clothes stood on a street
corner begging for food. Or money to enable her to buy some.
A man noticed her and passed without giving her a second look. On
returning to his expensive home, his happy and comfortable family and
generously laden dinner table, his thoughts returned to her. He became
angry with God for allowing such destitute children to exist without
helping them.
He reproached God, saying,
"How can you let this happen ? Why don't you do something to help the
girl ?"
In the depths of his being a voice spoke, saying,
"I have, I created you."

You are delusional, in that you think you have knowledge of things of which you have no information, made more pronounced by the fact that you are wrong. I have read Spinoza, as well as Descartes, Pascal, Leibnitz, Fichte, and others..

There is not a God. No God exists. We as humans on this ball of rock created religion, metaphysics, but we are here naturally, not at the cause of supernatural. I can see clearly that we are here naturally, and so I don't put stock in people's theories about God; of whom there is no evidence in this world at all.

We exist. Reality exists. God does not exist inside reality. We created him. Is it not telling that we say he created us in his image, in other words, that he is in our image?

The base of all metaphysics is friendship. If we can't discuss God in a way that brings us together, (c.f. how exclusionists resort to guerilla tactics and ad hominem) then it is counter productive, to say the least. You kill God when you insult someone, just like, in the words of great theologians, "every time you drop the bomb you kill the God your child has born." Don't presume to say what's in my heart, because you are infinitely far away from that.

You equate God with spirituality, and since I say there is no God you put me in the category of infidel. Yet we are all sinners and God chooses who goes to heaven.

Douglas Adams: isn't it enough to say the garden is beautiful without saying there are faeries at the bottom?

The garden is beautiful.

[Pendragon]

Honestly the people who have it the hardest in this world (concerning this topic) are people who are unsure of their beliefs. For instance, imagine how hard it must be for someone struggling to be a Christian because that was the way they were raised, but they constantly question the existence of Jesus or even God, and their faith is unsteady at best. How hard must it be sometimes to believe in something you've never seen, never heard, never felt.

Ape, you are someone I'd love to shake hands with. Ignoring all the bells and whistles, you go straight to the core. The ones that usually have it hardest are the ones, unsure of what they themselves believe and yet unable to remain silent. Sooner or later they begin to throw stones, such as questioning the intelligence of other posters to outright insults, cementing the fact that they themselves find they are on shaky ground. If you can't be right, be loud!

One who knows where he stands does not back up when he takes a broadside. This is going to happen from time to time. Perhaps he will be prepared for this particular one. Perhaps he may have to regroup before answering. But he will answer and it will make sense if you choose to see it his way. If not, you may find it absolute nonsense. But you'll get an answer, not an "un-oh."

A person who knows where he stands isn't afraid to say he doesn't know everything. Those who claim to know everything often know nothing. I have always used a quote by a famous minister: "When you think you've got it all figured out, you're wrong." That is the way I see things.

God Bless

Pen

[Sweets America]

You are delusional, in that you think you have knowledge of things of which you have no information, made more pronounced by the fact that you are wrong. I have read Spinoza, as well as Descartes, Pascal, Leibnitz, Fichte, and others..

There is not a God. No God exists. We as humans on this ball of rock created religion, metaphysics, but we are here naturally, not at the cause of supernatural. I can see clearly that we are here naturally, and so I don't put stock in people's theories about God; of whom there is no evidence in this world at all.

We exist. Reality exists. God does not exist inside reality. We created him. Is it not telling that we say he created us in his image, in other words, that he is in our image?

It has always surprised me a great deal that people could say with as much certainty that God does not exist. How could you know that? This sounds crazy to me.
Personally, I cannot affirm that God exists, or that he doesn't! How could I know? All I can say for sure is that I just ignore the truth. It is so strange that you blame someone who is acting in the exact same way as you, that is who claims to be SURE of something he cannot objectively know.

Is it really a problem to recognize that no one knows and that maybe no one will ever know? Then, everyone is free to have their own opinion, but you should accept that what you say is only one opinion among others. Then, there are chances that your opinion could be the truth, but you can never be sure of that. Maybe Mazhur's opinion is the truth, after all. No one knows. And perhaps the truth is something that no one has ever thought about yet. That's all. I don't see why it would be more intelligent to believe in science than to believe in the Bible. You can say that the Bible has been created by human beings, but science has been created by them as well. Human beings understand and interpret things according to some basis, but what if those bases were just one way of thinking among others?

Anyway, this is my way of seeing things. This is only my own way, though, now perhaps I'm totally wrong and one of you is right, but all that we can have is hypothesis.

[mazHur]

It has always surprised me a great deal that people could say with as much certainty that God does not exist. How could you know that? This sounds crazy to me.
Personally, I cannot affirm that God exists, or that he doesn't! How could I know? All I can say for sure is that I just ignore the truth. It is so strange that you blame someone who is acting in the exact same way as you, that is who claims to be SURE of something he cannot objectively know.

Is it really a problem to recognize that no one knows and that maybe no one will ever know? Then, everyone is free to have their own opinion, but you should accept that what you say is only one opinion among others. Then, there are chances that your opinion could be the truth, but you can never be sure of that. Maybe Mazhur's opinion is the truth, after all. No one knows. And perhaps the truth is something that no one has ever thought about yet. That's all. I don't see why it would be more intelligent to believe in science than to believe in the Bible. You can say that the Bible has been created by human beings, but science has been created by them as well. Human beings understand and interpret things according to some basis, but what if those bases were just one way of thinking among others?

Anyway, this is my way of seeing things. This is only my own way, though, now perhaps I'm totally wrong and one of you is right, but all that we can have is hypothesis.

I totally agree with Sweet.
However, as a gnostic I may say that there is no reason for not believing in God or whatever you call Him,,,,,,,,for us being here and all the things around we owe the credit to our Creator who IS definitely there and running the 'show'.

[Sweets America]

I totally agree with Sweet.
However, as a gnostic I may say that there is no reason for not believing in God or whatever you call Him,,,,,,,,for us being here and all the things around we owe the credit to our Creator who IS definitely there and running the 'show'.

Well, there certainly is no reason not to believe in God, but there is no reason to believe in him either. It's not necessarily a question of reason, more of a question of belief or faith. How can you be sure that the Creator is definitely there? This is my question. Maybe the creator is definitely there, of course, but how do you know it for a fact? I know it's a difficult question, and I am not asking for proof because this would be reducing things to what human beings CAN understand. And maybe this just cannot be proven, which is not a problem to me. But, I am interested in knowing how you are sure of yourself. Do you have this strong faith, this strong feeling that tells you that he is actually there?

[mazHur]

Sweet, can't you see we are 'talking' to each other at this moment is an ample proof that Bill Gates is sleeping at home and God is taking care of us?
Okay, tell me apart from this joke who the heck is ''transferring feelings from her to there and vice versa'' without us even knowing each other ?
Who controls the mind? who built our brains? who controls our hearts and all the abstract things such as love , hate, loyalty, friendship, pain, joy, etc about which science could yet give us no concrete answer?? Could someone say that matter came into existence on its own?? Why do you love your parents and friends as much as you dont do for others???
Doesnt this all prove that there is something, something superior, which controls us and that is God, Allah, Parmatama , Krishna, Raam, or whatever.But HE is there and watches you all the time!

[Sweets America]

Sweet, can't you see we are 'talking' to each other at this moment is an ample proof that Bill Gates is sleeping at home and God is taking care of us?
Okay, tell me apart from this joke who the heck is ''transferring feelings from her to there and vice versa'' without us even knowing each other ?
Who controls the mind? who built our brains? who controls our hearts and all the abstract things such as love , hate, loyalty, friendship, pain, joy, etc about which science could yet give us no concrete answer?? Could someone say that matter came into existence on its own?? Why do you love your parents and friends as much as you dont do for others???
Doesnt this all prove that there is something, something superior, which controls us and that is God, Allah, Parmatama , Krishna, Raam, or whatever.But HE is there and watches you all the time!

Big Father is watching me?
I am not sure I really understand what you mean, though I understand some parts of it. So...you think it is God who controls the minds and built our brains? And that he controls our hearts? It is always a possibility, but does that mean you think human beings don't have any freedom? It is a sweet idea to think that God created the abstract concepts, I had never thought of that. But, it does not appeal to me. (which of course has nothing to do with the fact that the statement is true or not)
What is the problem with the fact that matter got created on its own? I mean, why not? If you believe that someone as mysterious as a God has created everything, it is not more unbelievable to think that everything could have been created on its own.
I am not sure I see what you mean about 'why do you love your parents...'. But anyway, I don't see how what you said constitutes any proof. Those are not proofs, only ideas. Of course these ideas might be right, but you cannot be sure of it. You just cannot. You have to remember that perhaps there are a lot of things we do not perceive or are not aware of. I mean, if you place yourself at a human being place or at the place of an ant, you won't see the world the same way.
Anyway, I hope you understand that I am not asking for any proof, I am not against you in any way, I am just in favor of open-mindedness. And, I am not sure I need to know the truth.

[NikolaiI]

Sweet, I'm engaging Mazhur this way because he said some horrible things to someone who's very dear to me. In his fundamentalist rants about how you should obey God when he tells you to kill, all that comes to mind are terrorists who do this. So why not engage him on this?

It has always surprised me a great deal that people could say with as much certainty that God does not exist. How could you know that? This sounds crazy to me.
Personally, I cannot affirm that God exists, or that he doesn't! How could I know? All I can say for sure is that I just ignore the truth. It is so strange that you blame someone who is acting in the exact same way as you, that is who claims to be SURE of something he cannot objectively know.

Is it really a problem to recognize that no one knows and that maybe no one will ever know? Then, everyone is free to have their own opinion, but you should accept that what you say is only one opinion among others. Then, there are chances that your opinion could be the truth, but you can never be sure of that. Maybe Mazhur's opinion is the truth, after all. No one knows. And perhaps the truth is something that no one has ever thought about yet. That's all. I don't see why it would be more intelligent to believe in science than to believe in the Bible. You can say that the Bible has been created by human beings, but science has been created by them as well. Human beings understand and interpret things according to some basis, but what if those bases were just one way of thinking among others?

Anyway, this is my way of seeing things. This is only my own way, though, now perhaps I'm totally wrong and one of you is right, but all that we can have is hypothesis.

The other thing that bothered me was that he called me ignorant or basically mindless, and told me how I hadn't read Spinoza. How can you communicate with such a person? This and the reason mentioned above are why I posted this.

It gets so vulgar, and it gets so personal with people like Mazhur, that you can't discuss it.
My goal, the fundamental and most important thing, is for me and everyone else to be happy, to aleve their suffering. Sometimes I meet someone who is so special, that they actually change my outlook on life. Last night I realized this, and I realized that's what I want to do, is to dedicate my life to the eradication of suffering of everyone.

Communication is difficult. Yet, when I see someone who is so fundamental about things like God--- how can I describe the coldness I feel with such a person, whose mindset closes out everyone, chastises, excludes, excommunicates, anyone who doesn't believe in God, in their God- and furthermore, calls them ignorant--- I can't describe how cold this makes me feel.

This is a communication breakdown, and in all honesty that is what I was trying to bridge; although I don't know if what I said was correct or not. The issue is mundane, pointless; but there are underlying ideas that I cannot leave unchallenged. They're not stated explicitly but hostilities towards anyone I feel in a strange way.

I don't think such a person can really feel that they are right. If you believe in God, and you wish to share the love you feel; then one thing that's basic is that you think you have a certain view of life that is correct, and there are reasons for this view, and you want to share it. Well, isn't it supposed to be a good life? Or a bad one? There's something I'd like to bring into this called sense of life. Things that make us happy such as love, and the alleviation of suffering can make our sense of life change slightly. Of course, insults and people putting us down, being rude to us, or worse; when people trample on our feelings it brings our sense of life down. Long-term abusive relationships, for example, can destroy a person psychologically. Now, if you want to share the goodness of your God, you will not do it by insulting people. I have to speak up in this instance.

I loved Descartes. When I read him, actually, I was a believer. Reading Descartes is a great exercise of learning, and pouring over the words you can get a sense for metaphysics and philosophy. Descartes, Pascal and Leibniz were my introduction to philosophy. I learned a lot about God from them--- I guess, I'm just going back to the original reason why I got into this. That and the horrible things he said to my friend. That ever so slightly dampens my spirits. So I retaliate.



Understand, that while I don't equate a person's feelings with value of their life, I value a person's feelings very, very highly. I understand this is one definition of romantic. Mazhur, don't you think there was ever anyone who killed themselves after being insulted by a stranger? Be more careful with others' feelings.

[mazHur]

Oh, my God, never seen a heart as grudgeful as that and yet bragging about his dedicating his

life to the eradication of suffering of everyone.

I never said

''my God..

,,,,I say I believe in God, by whatever name you call him. Let you not twist things to gain undue favor of

''my'

friends! And, let us talk about the topic, about our own thoughts rather than be obsessed by the idea of unreasonably advocating for others. If that goes on I am sure the thread will crash !

You surely have'nt read Spinoza properly other wise how could you defy his erroneously transposed fundamental thoughts???
It's like someone posing to be an authority on Bible or Shakespeare and unable to recognize their words or fundamentals.

don't you think there was ever anyone who killed themselves after being insulted by a stranger?

yes, it is a common feature of those who lose face and commit harakari. In modern psychology that could be termed as some mental disorder or least tolerance or endurance.
When I say we have to obey God, I mean it in the legal and divine sense only, presuming that God soes speak up and tell you personally to kill ,,,,,,,,,like a general personally ordering his soldier to kill. And to kill in self defense ,,,,,I think that's pretty fine rather than killing yourself and the one who can kill himself can hardly be thought to have good feelings toward other innocent people,,,,,,,,and that depression or frustration which is abominable goes in the making of a terrorist. A soldier is NOT a terrorist. I state from a soldiers perspective not that of a suicidal sadist.

[Scheherazade]

W a r n i n g

Further personal comments and inflammatory posts will lead to thread closure.

[NikolaiI]

Mazzo, I think you have overstepped the bounds of logic here.

[mazHur]

share with me,,,,,,,,,

Mouseolatry,,,,

An intersting story by Idries Shah, a Master Story Teller of all times


A mouse one day found his way to the Fountain of Knowledge. Whoever
drinks from it may have his heart's desire--and one extra wish.
The mouse drank, and he wished that he could understand the
speech of men, if men had speech. When he spent some time listening
to what men said, he used his extra wish to banish the power.
The other mice said to him: "What was so horrible about the
speech of men?"
At first he could not bring himself even to think of it again,
but they pressed him so much that he said: "I do not think that you
will believe me, but what I have to say is true. Men actually
imagine that God is like them, with human, not mouselike, attributes!"
The mouse audience was shocked to the core. When some
intellectuals among them had recovered from their indignation, they
said: "But are there none who think otherwise?"
"There are some, but their theories are as abominable as the
rest."
"Tell us, just the same," clamoured the thinkers, "so that we
may have the fullest information on this amazing matter."
"Well, then; for instance there are those who imagine that
religious terms are in reality derived from states of mind."
"Enough!" cried some of the asembled mice, "such insanity could
cause an epidemic of madness. Even the Mouse-god might not be able
to protect us from it."
"Enough!" exclaimed the others, "for this might give
mouseolaters a chance to revive that nonsense called religion,
pretending that it has a functional origin."
"I told you all at the beginning that it was horrible," said the
mounse who had found his way to the Fountain of Knowledge.

by Idries Shah

[NikolaiI]

I meant saying I surely haven't read Spinoza or I couldn't disagree with him--- or defy his wrongly transposed comments.

First, I didn't wrongly transpose any comments of his- I was replying to something you wrote after some of his quotes- that god is the free cause.

And second is the statement above- I could not have read him if I defy him..

-------
This isn't logical or fair- I can't retaliate with, "Well you haven't read Nietzsche properly, obviously, or you wouldn't or couldn't defy him!"

[mazHur]

that god is the free cause.

I again repeat and reiterate that the above quote is by Spinoza and was inadvertently transposed outside the block. However, I believe those who have read Spinoza would have caught the error and responded accordingly

[NikolaiI]

I again repeat and reiterate that the above quote is by Spinoza and was inadvertently transposed outside the block. However, I believe those who have read Spinoza would have caught the error and responded accordingly

You haven't explained that before now.

Just please refrain from telling me what I've read and what I haven't, alright?