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Thread: D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

  1. #616
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlb4tlb View Post
    Greetings

    Me thinks Lawrence is getting lots of uses with snakes in this tale. Note that the first encounter with a snake gets Juliet asking questions about them. She is told about good and bad snakes. Note that she is also questioning her own life. Lawrence is using the animal to define good and evil(sin). It is also a form of foreshadowing for her lust(sin) for the peasant man.

    Lawrence also uses the snake as a plot device in "England, My England."

    I am rather new to Lawrence, so I might be way off base here. What do you think?

    Jeff
    Hi Jeff, so glad to see you here today. I hope you can read along with each story we plan, and discuss with us. I say 'welcome' to you! The 'more the merrier' - right? Many of the participants in this thread had little prior knowledge of L's work - that is no draw-back, at all; so you will learn more, right? Exposure to a new author is always a good experience; and Lawrence is an author that is definitely not just read but 'experienced'.

    No, I don't think you are off base one bit, considering the major significance of the snake images. I have just read a later book of L's, titled "The Plumed Serpent". Lawrence was quite taken with 'snake' or 'serpent' myth and symbolism, imagery. Your observations in this story and "England, My England" are accurate, I think. I also read 'EME' awhile back and will have to review that story. Perhaps we can pick that one soon, to discuss in this thread - it is a very good story, indeed. I had forgotten about the snake in the story. I have all of the three books, of the complete short stories; I will review it tonight. That way I can answer your post more precisely.

    For now, if you read back several pages, or review this entire discussion ( this story, 'Sun'), you will see that we did discuss the 'snake' quite extensively, in terms of myth, symbolism, sexual references, sin, original sin, Biblical connections and the Garden of Eden. Therefore, you have observed well the connections. I recommend reading the prior posts, if you have not already.

    Your last statement is an interesting one, about the peasant man, and I believe it to be a good idea and consideration. I do agree with you.

    Again, Jeff, so pleased that you took my and Virgil's suggestion to join in our discussions on the short stories. You will like this thread - it is always very interesting and lively.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  2. #617
    Searching for..... amalia1985's Avatar
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    Yes, Jeff, I agree with you. The points you mentioned were very precise, very well-put. Welcome to our discussion!!!
    None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe that they are free.
    -Goethe

  3. #618
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Let's look at the closing of the story. Here is that last section:

    She knew him, in the distance, perfectly. He was a rather fat, very broad
    fellow of about thirty-five, and he chewed large mouthfuls of bread. His wife
    was stiff and dark-faced, handsome, sombre. They had no children. So much
    Juliet had learned.

    The peasant worked a great deal alone, on the opposite podere. His clothes
    were always clean and cared-for, white trousers and a coloured shirt, and an
    old straw hat. Both he and his wife had that air of quiet superiority which
    belongs to individuals, not to a class.

    His attraction was in his vitality, the peculiar quick energy which gave a
    charm to his movements, stout and broad as he was. In the early days before
    she took to the sun, Juliet had met him suddenly, among the rocks, when she
    had scrambled over to the next podere. He had been aware of her before she saw
    him, so that when she did look up, he took off his hat, gazing at her with
    shyness and pride, from his big blue eyes. His face was broad and sunburnt, he
    had a cropped brown moustache, meeting under his low, wide brow.

    'Oh !' she said. 'Can I walk here ?'

    'Surely !' he replied with that peculiar hot haste which characterised his
    movement. 'My pardone would wish you to walk wherever you like on his land.'

    And he pressed back his head in the quick, vivid, shy generosity of his
    nature. She had gone on quickly. But instantly she had recognised the violent
    generosity of his blood, and the equally violentfarouche shyness.

    Since then she had seen him in the distance every day, and she came to realise
    that he was one who lived a good deal to himself, like a quick animal, and
    that his wife loved him intensely, with a jealousy that was almost hate;
    because, probably, he wanted to give himself still, still further, beyond
    where she could take him.

    One day, when a group of peasants sat under a tree, she had seen him dancing
    quick and gay with a child - his wife watching darkly.

    Gradually Juliet and he had become intimate, across the distance. There were
    aware of one another. She new, in the morning, the moment he arrived with his
    ***. And the moment she went out on the balcony he turned to look. But they
    never saluted. Yet she missed him when he did not come to work on the podere.

    Once, in the hot morning when she had been walking naked, deep in the gully
    between the two estates, she had come upon him, as he was bending down, with
    his powerful shoulders, picking up wood to pile on his motionless, waiting
    donkey. He was her as he lifted his flushed face, and she was backing away. A
    flame went over his eyes, and flame flew over her body, melting her bones. But
    she backed away behind the bushes, silently, and retreated whence she had
    come. And she wondered a little resentfully over the silence in which he would
    work, hidden in bushy places. He had that wild animal faculty.

    Since then there had been a definite pain of consciousness in the body of each
    of them, though neither would admit it, and they gave no sign of recognition
    but the man's wife was instinctively aware.

    And Juliet had thought: Why shouldn't I meet this man for an hour, and bear
    his child ? Why should I have to identify my life with a man's life ? Why not
    meet him for an hour, as long as the desire lasts, and no more ? There is
    already the spark between us.

    But she had never made any sign. And now she saw him looking up, from where he
    sat by the white cloth, opposite his black-clad wife, looking up at Maurice.
    The wife turned and looked, too, saturnine.

    And Juliet felt a grudge come over her. She would have to bear Maurice's child
    again. She had seen it in her husband's eyes. And she knew it from his answer,
    when she spoke to him.

    'Will you walk about in the sun, too, without your clothes ?' she asked him.

    'Why - er - yes ! Yes, I should like to, while I'm here - I suppose it's quite
    private ?'

    There was a gleam in his eyes, a desperate kind of courage of his desire, and
    a glance at the alert lifting of her breasts in her wrapper. In this way, he
    was a man, too, he faced the world and was not entirely quenched in his male
    courage. He would dare to walk in the sun, even ridiculously.

    But he smelled of the world, and all its fetters and its mongrel cowering. He
    was branded with the brand that is not a hall-mark.

    Ripe now, and brown-rosy all over with the sun, and with a heart like a fallen
    rose, she had wanted to go down to the hot, shy peasant and bear his child.
    Her sentiments had fallen like petals. She had seen the flushed blood in the
    burnt face, and the flame in the blue eyes, and the answer in her had been a
    gush of fire. He would had been a procreative sun-bath to her, and she wanted
    it.

    Nevertheless, her next child would be Maurice's. The fatal chain of continuity
    would cause it.
    Let me summarize how Lawrence got us here. The story starts with Julia in a sort of nervous breakdown in living in the actual, complex modern world. She retreats to this isalnd where she lives in sort of a paradisiacal life, a sort of primitive pagan life and where she has developed a sort of religious relationship with the Sun, a sort of diety. Next her son enters the situation which adds a layer of complexity to her new life, but one that is easily resolved. Next her husband returns, and that adds a further complexity but after some negotiation they sort of come to an agreement. But now another enters the situation, the peasant, and adds still another layer of complexity. Julia expresses a wish at this point:
    And Juliet had thought: Why shouldn't I meet this man for an hour, and bear
    his child ? Why should I have to identify my life with a man's life ? Why not
    meet him for an hour, as long as the desire lasts, and no more ? There is
    already the spark between us.
    Well, that wish adds still another huge layer of complexity. This is a wish outside the norms of civilized society. This isn't just a sexual excursion that no one has to know about but a wish of bearing his child, and given the peasant's jealous wife and her husband and her child, we can expect that this situation can only lead to complexity that brought her to a nervous breakdown. The increasing complexities have brought back society into her life. The idyllic utopia that she had retreated to is slowly being invaded first by the outside world and then I think even by her ego and desires. The complexity of society is being reconstructed; and she is a living being with a will, not that ideal flower/spirit that lives in paradise. People have relationships and in the real world there are boundaries that create rules if people are to get along. And there are desires which complicate our lives.

    And now I see the significance of the snake. The snake is what brings Adam and Eve out of paradise, and here too the snake is working it's way. While things are in the ideal state, the snake is in check. Julia has power over it. But Julia is warned about the dangerous kind of snake that does pose a danger. And I see the ending as a prefigure for that snake to come back into power. Remember that metaphor at the beginning: "At that moment the sea seemed to heave like the serpent of chaos that has lived forever." Forever refers to the beginning of the earth when the apple is bit and humanity loses paradise. And the chaos is what will occur if Julia bears the peasant's child.

    I hope that makes sense. I can see how some might disagree with this reading.
    Last edited by Virgil; 11-27-2007 at 10:54 PM.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  4. #619
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    Let's look at the closing of the story. Here is that last section:



    Let me summarize how Lawrence got us here. The story starts with Julia in a sort of nervous breakdown in living in the actual, complex modern world. She retreats to this isalnd where she lives in sort of a paradisiacal life, a sort of primitive pagan life and where she has developed a sort of religious relationship with the Sun, a sort of diety. Next her son enters the situation which adds a layer of complexity to her new life, but one that is easily resolved. Next her husband returns, and that adds a further complexity but after some negotiation they sort of come to an agreement. But now another enters the situation, the peasant, and adds still another layer of complexity. Julia expresses a wish at this point:

    Well, that wish adds still another huge layer of complexity. This is a wish outside the norms of civilized society. This isn't just a sexual excursion that no one has to know about but a wish of bearing his child, and given the peasant's jealous wife and her husband and her child, we can expect that this situation can only lead to complexity that brought her to a nervous breakdown. The increasing complexities have brought back society into her life. The idyllic utopia that she had retreated to is slowly being invaded first by the outside world and then I think even by her ego and desires. The complexity of society is being reconstructed; and she is a living being with a will, not that ideal flower/spirit that lives in paradise. People have relationships and in the real world there are boundaries that create rules if people are to get along. And there are desires which complicate our lives.

    And now I see the significance of the snake. The snake is what brings Adam and Eve out of paradise, and here too the snake is working it's way. While things are in the ideal state, the snake is in check. Julia has power over it. But Julia is warned about the dangerous kind of snake that does pose a danger. And I see the ending as a prefigure for that snake to come back into power. Remember that metaphor at the beginning: "At that moment the sea seemed to heave like the serpent of chaos that has lived forever." Foever refers to the beginning of the earth when the apple is bit and humanity loses paradise. And the chaos is what will occur if Julia bears the peasant's child.

    I hope that makes sense. I can see how some might disagree with this reading.
    Virgil, glad to see you recapping and wrapping up this short story. You did a good job of it; you bring out some interesting points here. Seems leaving the story alone for awhile, you were able to come up with a deeper understanding and meaning for the ending. It all makes more sense to me now - the peasant, the snake, Adam and Eve, paradise, temptation, etc. Yes, I think you hit the nail on the head. I had wondered at that ending and this interpretation of yours makes perfect sense to me. This return to chaos or a chaotic world and chaotic existence is a very interesting thought to ponder. I had not, so clearly, considered this before and now I see the ending from a whole new perspective. Layering and complexity could surely lead Juliet back to where she had escaped from....civilization. Also, the mention of and the true significance of the two types of shakes, one harmless and one deadly - that, in itself, is most interesting. Thanks, this has been very enlightening.
    Last edited by Janine; 11-27-2007 at 10:44 PM.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  5. #620
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Thank you Janine. I've read this story many times and have always been puzzled by the ending. Somehow when I made that comment earlier about how the snake may play a role with the ending, it sent me thinking, and finally I see how it all comes together now. It's a richer story than "this is how paradise is" as I had originally thought.

    I must say these Lawrence discussions of his stories have really enriched my understanding of his stories quite a bit. Thanks to all who participate and continue to participate.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  6. #621
    The Poetic Warrior Dark Muse's Avatar
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    Not to get off topic here but I was just wondering if you guys have already read and discussed either The Man Who Loved Islands or The Man Who Died both have been recomended to me, but I have not yet had the oppertunity to read them.

    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before. ~ Edgar Allan Poe

  7. #622
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Muse View Post
    Not to get off topic here but I was just wondering if you guys have already read and discussed either The Man Who Loved Islands or The Man Who Died both have been recomended to me, but I have not yet had the oppertunity to read them.
    We have not Muse. The Man Who Died is a little long for this thread; it's closer to a short novel. Perhaps we can read it as its own thread. If you like, once we are complete with this story we can pick "The Man Who Loved Islands" next.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  8. #623
    The Poetic Warrior Dark Muse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    We have not Muse. The Man Who Died is a little long for this thread; it's closer to a short novel. Perhaps we can read it as its own thread.
    Ahh ok I was not aware of how long it was.

    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before. ~ Edgar Allan Poe

  9. #624
    Jeff, in a far away place jlb4tlb's Avatar
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    Virgil Wrote

    "Well, that wish adds still another huge layer of complexity. This is a wish outside the norms of civilized society. This isn't just a sexual excursion that no one has to know about but a wish of bearing his child, and given the peasant's jealous wife and her husband and her child, we can expect that this situation can only lead to complexity that brought her to a nervous breakdown. The increasing complexities have brought back society into her life. The idyllic utopia that she had retreated to is slowly being invaded first by the outside world and then I think even by her ego and desires. The complexity of society is being reconstructed; and she is a living being with a will, not that ideal flower/spirit that lives in paradise. People have relationships and in the real world there are boundaries that create rules if people are to get along. And there are desires which complicate our lives.

    And now I see the significance of the snake. The snake is what brings Adam and Eve out of paradise, and here too the snake is working it's way. While things are in the ideal state, the snake is in check. Julia has power over it. But Julia is warned about the dangerous kind of snake that does pose a danger. And I see the ending as a prefigure for that snake to come back into power. Remember that metaphor at the beginning: "At that moment the sea seemed to heave like the serpent of chaos that has lived forever." Forever refers to the beginning of the earth when the apple is bit and humanity loses paradise. And the chaos is what will occur if Julia bears the peasant's child.

    I hope that makes sense. I can see how some might disagree with this reading."

    Interesting thoughts Virgil and thank you for sharing them. However I get a bit of a different take on the ending. Please bear with me.

    Me thinks that Judith is torn betwen two worlds when her husband returns. Notice how Lawrence decribes his clothing. He is a intrusion to her world now. The Peasant however is one with the land.

    Being that I am a somple guy, I get the feeling that she wants to become part of the simple world. But, she knows that she is an outsider and can never fit in. Thus we see that she knows that she will go back to her real world and become one with civilization again.

    A rather sad ending for her, or just life its self?

    Again thank you all for inviting me to join this most enlighting chat.

    Jeff
    "Lennie said, "I thought you was mad at me, George."
    "No," said George. "No Lennie. I ain't mad. I never been mad, an' I ain't now. Thats a thing I want ya to know."


  10. #625
    The Poetic Warrior Dark Muse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlb4tlb View Post
    Me thinks that Judith is torn betwen two worlds when her husband returns. Notice how Lawrence decribes his clothing. He is a intrusion to her world now. The Peasant however is one with the land.

    Being that I am a somple guy, I get the feeling that she wants to become part of the simple world. But, she knows that she is an outsider and can never fit in. Thus we see that she knows that she will go back to her real world and become one with civilization again.

    A rather sad ending for her, or just life its self?

    Again thank you all for inviting me to join this most enlighting chat.

    Jeff

    Yes I can see that, in a way I think one does get the feeling in a way, that her desires to sleep with the peseant are almost more of a dream, though I wonder, if her husband had not come back, would she have acutally done it? Or would it remained only a thought in her mind, as it was not untill his arivial that she even seems to enterain the idea or suggest it.

    But the last line.

    Nevertheless, her next child would be Maurice's. The fatal chain of continutiy would cause it.

    It seems almost as if she accepts the fact that she knows she will never be completely part of the new world she found in the sun, the simple life, but that a part of her will always be tied to her otherself and the civilized world.

    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before. ~ Edgar Allan Poe

  11. #626
    Jeff, in a far away place jlb4tlb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    We have not Muse. The Man Who Died is a little long for this thread; it's closer to a short novel. Perhaps we can read it as its own thread. If you like, once we are complete with this story we can pick "The Man Who Loved Islands" next.

    That would be fine with me. While looking in my local used book store I found and purchased vol 3 of the complete short stories that contains "The Man That Loved Islands" and a volume that has "St. Mawr" and "The Virgin And The Gipsy." I have gone from borrowing from the library to owning Lawrence in a very short time.

    Jeff

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Muse View Post
    Yes I can see that, in a way I think one does get the feeling in a way, that her desires to sleep with the peseant are almost more of a dream, though I wonder, if her husband had not come back, would she have acutally done it? Or would it remained only a thought in her mind, as it was not untill his arivial that she even seems to enterain the idea or suggest it.

    But the last line.

    Nevertheless, her next child would be Maurice's. The fatal chain of continutiy would cause it.

    It seems almost as if she accepts the fact that she knows she will never be completely part of the new world she found in the sun, the simple life, but that a part of her will always be tied to her other self and the civilized world.
    Judith knows she can never fit in, Looking into the face of the peasants wife shows a denial of passage into this simple life. So it is just a dream. In the end she will submit to her husband and bear his children, thus returning to her real world.

    Jeff
    "Lennie said, "I thought you was mad at me, George."
    "No," said George. "No Lennie. I ain't mad. I never been mad, an' I ain't now. Thats a thing I want ya to know."


  12. #627
    The Poetic Warrior Dark Muse's Avatar
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    Once again sorry to step off topic here, but I just stumbled upon something that I thought might be helpful and useful. I happend upon this site, which has a list of both short stories and novels by D.H. Lawerence that can be read online.

    http://www.literature.org/authors/la...ies/index.html

    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before. ~ Edgar Allan Poe

  13. #628
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlb4tlb View Post
    That would be fine with me. While looking in my local used book store I found and purchased vol 3 of the complete short stories that contains "The Man That Loved Islands" and a volume that has "St. Mawr" and "The Virgin And The Gipsy." I have gone from borrowing from the library to owning Lawrence in a very short time.

    Jeff
    Hi Jeff and Hi Dark Muse, I am delighted to see both of you here again and actively commenting. I think we have some new Lawrence recruits, Virgil. This is wonderful!
    Yes, Jeff, I know what you mean. Actually, my library had very few Lawrence books and I have been buying them like crazy. Manolia once asked me to count them and I counted over 22....so far...and probably will buy more. I am a bit of a Lawrence fanatic now; obsessed. I am glad you found Volume 3 of the short stories. I had to order mine 'used copy' from Amazon. The books you mentioned I have read before (years ago); I know you will find them highly interesting and enjoy them very much. These are very thought-provoking stories indeed. I think that Dark Muse is interested in 'The Man Who Loved Islands' and Virgil said we could do that one next.

    I enjoyed reading everyone's comments and I am glad you both had your own thoughts on the ending. I think the ending here is definitely one that is open to personal interpretation. There is one thing for certain, Lawrence often leaves us with much to comtemplate and ponder about, long after the story is finished...or is it ever truly finished? I think Lawrence perferred stories were not completed, as is true in real life.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  14. #629
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlb4tlb View Post
    Interesting thoughts Virgil and thank you for sharing them. However I get a bit of a different take on the ending. Please bear with me.

    Me thinks that Judith is torn betwen two worlds when her husband returns. Notice how Lawrence decribes his clothing. He is a intrusion to her world now. The Peasant however is one with the land.

    Being that I am a somple guy, I get the feeling that she wants to become part of the simple world. But, she knows that she is an outsider and can never fit in. Thus we see that she knows that she will go back to her real world and become one with civilization again.

    A rather sad ending for her, or just life its self?

    Again thank you all for inviting me to join this most enlighting chat.

    Jeff
    Thanks Jeff. It sounds like we're saying similar things.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  15. #630
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    Thanks Jeff. It sounds like we're saying similar things.
    I seems like all of you are saying similar things, but not exactly.
    Virgil, you seem to be proposing or suggesting, that should Juliet give into her impulse to have a child with this peasant man, who is a stranger and married, she will ultimately be drawn back to the world of complications and therefore lose the world of peaceful and happy repose in the sun that she has come to adapt herself to and become as a new person - reborn.

    However, it is true that in the last lines of the story Lawrence does put forth that the she will have her next child with her husband and he uses the phrase 'fatal chain of continuity', which suggests a kind of irony to me or a cynicism - as though he is saying 'look how far Juliet has come only to continue in the same fatal chain of her existence'....strange, if you think of it. Is there then no true hope at the end of this story? I just wonder on this fact. It seems that to go witht the peasant would hardly be her answer and to go with the husband may not be her answer in her new goal to free herself of the bonds of civilization.

    Nevertheless, her next child would be Maurice's. The fatal chain of continutiy would cause it.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

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