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Thread: D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

  1. #601
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    Enjoy your break Janine. I'll try to push the conversation along later tonight.
    OK, thanks, Virgil....I really need a break from computer; but of course, I am doing about 5 things at once - only they are offline in real life space, not cyber-...hahah...laundry, switching winter/summer clothes, taping something, going to watch a movie now, etc....

    Good news - I received the audiobook yesterday, of the Chekhov plays. Will not listen to them till I am done the current L readings/discussions. S&L's I still have not completed the book. I dispair I will even finish it but I am trying to. I guess first time one is in some suspense and second reading I know the outcome so I don't charge ahead.

    Ok, going now to watch that film/films(?)
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

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    Searching for..... amalia1985's Avatar
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    I think that one of the important issues that the story raises is Juliet's relationship with her son which has really attracted my attention. The phrases that Lawrence uses describe it in an excellent way.

    We have already commented on her prompting the child to "run and play in the sun". I believe that Johny's reaction to her behaviour is important. Lawrence depicts the restrictions and influence of the society that Juliet desires to escape, in the face of the little boy, using strong expressions, like the repetition of Johny's desire to "cry". I think that he points to us that the boy is frightened of freeedom, having been raised differently.

    Another expression that depicts this chain of the restrained, almost stiff, attitude towards the new life that his mother suggests to him, is the "confession" of Juliet's thought that Johny "shall not grow up like his father." I think this "wish" is very important, and although we have been told earlier in the story that Johny "does not allow Juliet to be free", now we see her desire to "take him with her" in this new life, something that she, actually, manages to do.
    None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe that they are free.
    -Goethe

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    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amalia1985 View Post
    I think that one of the important issues that the story raises is Juliet's relationship with her son which has really attracted my attention. The phrases that Lawrence uses describe it in an excellent way.

    We have already commented on her prompting the child to "run and play in the sun". I believe that Johny's reaction to her behaviour is important. Lawrence depicts the restrictions and influence of the society that Juliet desires to escape, in the face of the little boy, using strong expressions, like the repetition of Johny's desire to "cry". I think that he points to us that the boy is frightened of freeedom, having been raised differently.

    Another expression that depicts this chain of the restrained, almost stiff, attitude towards the new life that his mother suggests to him, is the "confession" of Juliet's thought that Johny "shall not grow up like his father." I think this "wish" is very important, and although we have been told earlier in the story that Johny "does not allow Juliet to be free", now we see her desire to "take him with her" in this new life, something that she, actually, manages to do.
    amalia,so glad that you have posted your ideas. Our beloved,Virgil, seems to be ill with flu or a cold, so I think he is taking a short break. This post of yours is very good and I think you bring up such a fine point. I think that Juliet's son, still being in the 'formative years' and so very young, can go in this 'free' direction she is indicating, after being influenced by the sun and experiencing this 'freedom', unlike his father who has the retrains of society to shackle him to his past way of life. I guess what I am trying to say is, with the child there is more of a chance of escaping that old restrained way of thinking and living; in this new 'sunny' way he can now grow into and become a 'free' human being. With his father, it might be too late for this transformation, but then again, it was not 'too late' for Juliet, so that maybe, just maybe, this all-powerful sun can transform him, as well.

    I hope that you might quote other direct instances and passages, in reference to the child and his transformation. I would like to read your comments since the above is so intuitive and well written.

    After-all, I do know you can write a good amount and you express youself very well, indeed!....
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  4. #604
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    Oh, I didn't know that Virgil was ill! Hey, Virgil, get well soon, return to us!!!

    I don't think I have more to add regarding this issue, apart from the very interesting part in the end of the story, where Maurice returns and notices the change in the boy, the obvious influence of Juliet on his developing personality. Notice that father and son seem not to know each other at first, while earlier the person that felt more distanced from Johny was, actually, Juliet.

    What you said about Maurice is true. Still, I think that the end is open, as you have already said, and I believe we could say that there may be a "hope" that the father will follow the son's steps, under Juliet's direction.
    Last edited by amalia1985; 11-14-2007 at 04:14 PM.
    None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe that they are free.
    -Goethe

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    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amalia1985 View Post
    Oh, I didn't know that Virgil was ill! Hey, Virgil, get well soon, return to us!!!

    I don't think I have more to add regarding this issue, apart from the very interesting part in the end of the story, where Maurice returns and notices the change in the boy, the obvious influence of Juliet on his developing personality. Notice that father and son seem not to know each other at first, while earlier the person that felt more distanced from Johny was, actually, Juliet.

    What you said about Maurice is true. Still, I think that the end is open, as you have already said, and I believe we could say that there may be a "hope" that the father will follow the son's steps, under Juliet's direction.
    amalia, and I plan to make this short ...I know you get that joke!

    You bring up a very good point here - that at first, Juliet is the one who is so distant with her son and now it is she that is closer and her husband is the distant one - interesing, isn't it? I did not see that either were extremely close to the child, but Juliet now could enjoy the child more so, since he is not as 'needy' or filled with axieties, and he can entertain himself in the sunlight. I think this tyep of closeness is genuine and more real than a clinging type of closeness - don't you?

    I would love to see you quote some parts from the end of the book when the husband first encounters the much 'changed' child. I did feel that the father was tender with him or loved him but he is just set in a different kind of world - the one of restraints and restrictions. Even when he see the beauty of his wife he can't seem to view her straight-on. The scene is almost comical and yet is it sad that he can't see her in her natural state, he being her husband. There is a scene in Lady Chatterly's Lover where Connie sheds her cloths and appears nude in front of her crippled husband and he is appalled by her boldness and nakedness and he is her husband. This reminded me of that scene, and yet Juliet's husband was not at all 'apalled', just 'restrained', don't you think? He is willing to try sunbathing in the nude himself, by the end of the book. I would say that is a huge step for him to take, considering.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  6. #606
    Searching for..... amalia1985's Avatar
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    Here is a phrase that attracted my attention:

    "Do you know, Daddy, Johny?"

    I don't think there is a more telling depiction of this new distance between the father and the son. Maurice feels "lost", as Lawrence himself tells us. I admit I almost felt sorry for him at this point...
    None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe that they are free.
    -Goethe

  7. #607
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amalia1985 View Post
    Here is a phrase that attracted my attention:

    "Do you know, Daddy, Johny?"

    I don't think there is a more telling depiction of this new distance between the father and the son. Maurice feels "lost", as Lawrence himself tells us. I admit I almost felt sorry for him at this point...
    amalia, now that is a short post! You and I are online same time on here...haha....ESP! Actually, I am trying to pull myself away from the computer, can you believe it?

    Yes, seriously, that one statement is a very 'telling' depiction of the father and our initial reaction to his relationship with the child, now that his child has been transformed. I would imagine 'lost' is a good way of describing Maurice at this point. But remember that Juliet was 'lost' in the beginning, also. Therefore, I suppose, being the optimist I am, I hope for a 'transfiguration' for poor Maurice, so that this family might become a happy one eventually. I think Juliet's fantasy involving the man from Italy, is not at all realistic, so that I feel her husband, if transformed, might just turn out to be a great guy afterall and a sensual lover, as well
    Last edited by Janine; 11-14-2007 at 04:54 PM.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  8. #608
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Hey, I'm back. Thanks for your well wishes. Here's the passage with the child and the snake:

    Juliet had ceased to trouble about anything. Now, most of the day, she and the
    child were naked in the sun, and it was all she wanted. Sometimes she went
    down to the sea to bathe: often she wandered in the gullies where the sun
    shone in, and she was out of sight. Sometimes she saw a peasant with an ***,
    and he saw her. But she went on simply and quietly with her child; and the
    fame of the sun's healing power, for the soul as well as for the body, had
    already spread among the people; so that there was no excitement.

    The child and she were now both tanned with a rosy-golden tan all over. 'I am
    another being !' she said to herself, as she looked at her red-gold breasts
    and thighs.

    The child, too, was a another creature, with a peculiar, quiet, sun-darkened
    absorption. Now he played by himself in silence, and she hardly need notice
    him. He seemed no longer to know when he was alone.

    There was a breeze, and the sea was ultra marine. She sat by the great silver
    paw of the cypress tree, drowsed in the sun, but her breasts alert, full of
    sap. She was becoming aware that an activity was rousing in her, an activity
    which would carry her into a new way of life. Still she did not want to be
    aware. She knew well enough the vast cold apparatus of civilisation, so
    difficult to evade.

    The child had gone a few yards down the rocky path, round the great sprawling
    of a cactus. She had seen him, a real gold-brown infant of the winds, with
    burnt gold hair and red cheeks, collecting the speckled pitcher-flowers and
    laying them in rows. He could balance now, and was quick for his own
    emergencies, like an absorbed young animal playing silent.

    Suddenly she heard him speaking: 'Look Mummy ! Mummy, look !' A note in
    his bird-like voice made her lean forward sharply.

    Her heart stood still. He was looking over his naked little shoulder at her,
    and pointing with a loose little hand at a snake which had reared itself up a
    yard away from him, and was opening its mouth so that its forked, soft tongue
    flickered black like a shadow, uttering a short hiss.

    'Look, Mummy !'

    'Yes, darling, it's a snake !' came the slow, deep voice.

    He looked at he, his wide blue eyes uncertain whether to be afraid or not.
    Some stillness of the sun in her reassured him.

    'Snake !' he chirped.

    'Yes, darling. Don't touch it, it can bite.'

    The snake had sunk down, and was reaching away from the coils in which it had
    been basking asleep. and slowly was easing its long, gold-brown body into the
    rocks, with slow curves. The boy turned and watched in silence. Then he said:

    'Snake going !'

    'Yes ! Let it go. It likes to be alone.'

    He still watched the slow, easing length as the creature drew itself apathetic
    out of sight.

    'Snake gone back,' he said.

    'Yes, it's gone back. Come to Mummy a moment.'

    He came and sat with his plump, naked little body on her naked lap, and she
    smoothed his burnt, bright hair. She said nothing, feeling that everything was
    passed. The curious soothing power of the sun filled her, filled the whole
    place like a charm, and the snake was part of the place, along with her and
    the child.
    I think everything important to the story is in this passage. The place that Lawrence presents is a heaven, a place where snakes slither harmlessly away and civilization is vague and have no sway. The sun is a diety and it soothes and heals.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

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    Searching for..... amalia1985's Avatar
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    Virgil, welcome back!!!! We missed you!!!

    What you say about the passage sums up everything we could say. The only thing I would like to add is a further -perhaps, incorrect- thought. Can the snake also stand as a hint that in every situation, even in this one of almost absolute freedom,a hidden danger can always occur? Something similar can also be implied by the presence of the thorns.
    Last edited by amalia1985; 11-16-2007 at 09:29 AM.
    None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe that they are free.
    -Goethe

  10. #610
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amalia1985 View Post
    Virgil, welcome back!!!! We missed you!!!

    What you say about the passage sums up everything we could say. The only thing I would like to add is a further -perhaps, incorrect- thought. Can the snake also stand as a hint that in every situation, even in this one of almost absolute freedom,a hidden danger can always occur? Something similar can also be implied by the presence of the thorns.
    Thank you Amalia. And yes i think the snake can and does stand for hidden dangers. Like I said earlier I don't fully understand the snake in this story, and I suspect that Lawrence never completely developed his intentions. It seems like the snake should be more defined as a theme. I don't know if this was intentional or if Lawrence dropped the ball or I'm completely missing sometheing. There was certainly that snake metaphor at the beginning of the story: "At that moment the sea seemed to heave like the serpent of chaos that has lived forever." I guess there is a contrast here. When Juliet is in the modern world, the snake is truely threatening; but the snake on the Mediterranian island is in check, tamed if you will. The threat perhaps is that civilization will invade Juliet's worldd and the snake will truely bring back that chaos. Yes, I think this is what Lawrence intended with the sanke. Perhaps he could have developed it more as a theme but this is a short story and limited in scope. It's here as a suggestion. What do you all think about that?
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

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    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Hi everybody, I feel like letting you and amalia debate this snake question, not interferring right now. I think it is a good one and both of you bring up excellent points.
    Thanks for posting that long segment on the story, Virgil. It was quite helpful - always is better to review the actual text, don't you think?

    I had also noticed the various references to the serpent or the snake - beginning to end. I don't think L needed to develop this idea any furthre. Afterall it is a short story and much can be implied; also the outcome is so open-ended that I feel sensing the snakes importance in the story is enough. Just my own opinion on that aspect.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  12. #612
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    It seems a lot quieter in this thread.


    Quote Originally Posted by Janine View Post
    I had also noticed the various references to the serpent or the snake - beginning to end. I don't think L needed to develop this idea any furthre. Afterall it is a short story and much can be implied; also the outcome is so open-ended that I feel sensing the snakes importance in the story is enough. Just my own opinion on that aspect.
    Great point Janine. I would like to talk about the open ending. And I can't help feeling that it's related to the unresolved theme of the snake. Don't have time to go further, though. I'll be back later.
    Last edited by Virgil; 11-16-2007 at 04:16 PM.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

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    Yes, Virgil, I agree with you. I think that your point is really significant, because I tend to relate the snake with creation, in general. If we consider the function of the snake both in the short story and in the Genesis, what you imply takes on an additional value.
    None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe that they are free.
    -Goethe

  14. #614
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    It seems a lot quieter in this thread.
    Yes, I get a 'peaceful, easy feeling' in this thread, don't you? A lot quieter than some.

    Great point Janine. I would like to talk about the open ending. And I can't help feeling that it's related to the unresolved theme of the snake. Don't have time to go further, though. I'll be back later.
    Thanks, Virgil, I see you are still talking to me.... Yes, interesting idea of the open ending relating to the snake. I had not thought of this and it is a good idea to consider:

    The threat perhaps is that civilization will invade Juliet's world and the snake will truely bring back that chaos.
    Additionally,this would go along with the tie that amalia has made to Genesis and the snake; the way his intervention had Adam and Eve expelled from the Garden of Eden. Juliet's new haven or heaven is a kind of Garden of Eden. The modern world is the one of chaos. Chaos is mentioned in the very beginning of the story in conjuction with the snake, or serpent reference and the sea.
    Last edited by Janine; 11-16-2007 at 07:50 PM.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  15. #615
    Jeff, in a far away place jlb4tlb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amalia1985 View Post
    Yes, Virgil, I agree with you. I think that your point is really significant, because I tend to relate the snake with creation, in general. If we consider the function of the snake both in the short story and in the Genesis, what you imply takes on an additional value.

    Greetings

    Me thinks Lawrence is getting lots of uses with snakes in this tale. Note that the first encounter with a snake gets Juliet asking questions about them. She is told about good and bad snakes. Note that she is also questioning her own life. Lawrence is using the animal to define good and evil(sin). It is also a form of foreshadowing for her lust(sin) for the peasant man.

    Lawrence also uses the snake as a plot device in "England, My England."

    I am rather new to Lawrence, so I might be way off base here. What do you think?

    Jeff
    "Lennie said, "I thought you was mad at me, George."
    "No," said George. "No Lennie. I ain't mad. I never been mad, an' I ain't now. Thats a thing I want ya to know."


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