View Poll Results: 'Women in Love': Final Verdict

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  • * Waste of time. Wouldn't recommend it.

    0 0%
  • ** Didn't like it much.

    0 0%
  • *** Average.

    1 7.14%
  • **** It is a good book.

    3 21.43%
  • ***** Liked it very much. Would strongly recommend it.

    10 71.43%
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Thread: June / Lawrence Reading: 'Women in Love'

  1. #226
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manolia View Post
    Such as? That sounds very interesting..does he mention anything in particular?? And why did he have enemies? Were his daring books the cause which created enemies?
    You know manolia, this Introduction to "Apogalyse" is fascinating; another window into Lawrence's life and world. Here I go again; I probably will have to scan it, so you can read it, too. I can send it to you in an email, if you want. When I refer to enemies, YES, various - mostly his critics and of course, others who criticised him endlessly and persistently. He was crucified by the press, and his work even banned and confiscated. I layed out some of this background information in the 'Tortoise Poems' thread; if you go there you can find the post. The 'press' percecution is just the tip of the iceberg, so to speak. If Lawrence had any bitterness or hostility, it is no wonder, the way his work was discredited and unacceptable in his day. It is truly sad. It was only after he was dead, that the public and scholars realised how great his writing truly was. I think this Introduction/letter I read last night is revealing of one man, Richard Aldington - surely a friend of L's - taking a stand for Lawrence. It was touching to read.

    I began reading the book and likewise that is quite interesting, so far. I will let you know. It is non-fiction and states exactly what Lawrence had come to believe in in the later years of his life; obviously late years since he died before publication. It is a dying man's vision of life and it's greater meaning.

    Bah! I will never be a fast reader. There is no point in doing that I am just reading faster than usual.
    Niether will I, ever. Actually, in school I think that posed a problem for me; I rejected pressure of having to read in a time frame. Now I can read some faster and better using my own pace, with no actual time restriction. On here for the group, there is some pressure to try and finish, but as Caspian pointed out, one can read and finish later and then still gather good information from the posts.


    I don't remember. But maybe it was you. You were ahead of us all in your reading.
    If it was me, it will be a first.


    It is indeed. Have you read "Fucault's pendulum" ? I have and i liked it immensely.
    That sounds interesting. Is Facault the author or is that part of the title? What is it about?


    You maybe right (after all we shouldn't search for a hidden meaning in everything).
    Yeah, but it is Lawrence afterall (groan, groan) and he liked hidden meanings, symbolism, metaphors, etc. I have a quote from this book I am reading, that applies to how he felt about a novel; how he thought a book should not be solved for the reader, if it was then it was done for....well, something like that, but of course, L says it more articulately than I can and more accurately. I will try to scan or type it out. Manolia, you will find it quite interesting. So will everyone else. Virgil advise me back awhile ago to get Lawrence's book of Letters - I did buy the Selected ones. He said they were so revealing of L's life and philosophy and the workings of his mind. I don't know if you are aware of it, but L was a prolithic letter writter. With all the work he turned out, I can't figure out how he could have had any time left over for the zillions of letters he wrote yearly. Just reading his letters compiled is like reading another complete novel or several of them.


    Hehe, i am waiting for your interpretation of the ending..you have read Janine's i presume.
    Yes, I am too....but let's be patient with our beloved Virgil....shall we? He's a busy guy these days. Unfortunately he does have to work sometimes. *Again real world is beckoning me as well.* ugh, more fun on here! I am losing it.....


    I liked that phrase
    Yes, Caspian - that one is a true 'gem'!

    Great chapter. It was my favourite till i read "Snowed Up" and "Continental"
    Yes, undoubtably many people will like "Snowed Up" best. Do you feel that, in that chapter, is the true climax of the book? I did think it. It seemed the most dramatic, asside from "Water-Party". I think both of those were my favorite chapters. I liked "Excurse" and "Moony" very much, too. Oh heck, I liked the whole book really!

    I might need one of those With all those books i buy (i really can't help it) i keep wondering if i ever find time to read them all.
    Hey manolia, maybe we can get them manufactured and sell on Lit Net! haha You are right and we think alike; I think will I be white haired, on my deathbed and in a nursing home, and I will be saying "no can't die yet, give me one more of my books off my stack!" By then my stack will be a mountain. maybe Caspian's mountain....
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  2. #227
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grace86 View Post
    Virgil, did you ever get the PM I sent you about the questions I have in the back of my book?
    No I don't think so. When did you send it? Oh I started Don Quixote by the way. I'll start a new thread for that tonight or tomorrow.

    Quote Originally Posted by manolia View Post
    It is indeed. Have you read "Fucault's pendulum" ? I have and i liked it immensely.
    No, unfortunately The Name of the Rose is the only Ecco I have read. I keep buying his books, I must have two others but never seem to get to them. I will try to read Foucault's Pendulum if that is one that I have. Not sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janine View Post
    You know manolia, this Introduction to "Apogalyse" is fascinating; another window into Lawrence's life and world. Here I go again; I probably will have to scan it, so you can read it, too. I can send it to you in an email, if you want.
    Apocalypse is an interesting read, but I think one needs to have read a bit of Lawrence's fiction in order to find it interesting I think. It's like listening to Birkin pontificate.

    Yes, I am too....but let's be patient with our beloved Virgil....shall we? He's a busy guy these days. Unfortunately he does have to work sometimes. *Again real world is beckoning me as well.* ugh, more fun on here! I am losing it....
    Thanks. Life does call. Actually today is my 16th wedding aniversary. We'll be going out into the city tonight. I will definitely say something about that fabulous conclusion.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  3. #228
    If grace is an ocean... grace86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    No I don't think so. When did you send it? Oh I started Don Quixote by the way. I'll start a new thread for that tonight or tomorrow.

    Uh oh...I wonder who received that PM?! I think I sent it maybe a week and a half, or two weeks ago. Haha I was just letting you know I have the Barnes and Noble edition of WIL and it has some questions in the back for book club purposes, I thought they might be kind of interesting to post...the ones that haven't already been answered that is!

    Don Quixote is waiting. I should probably get off the computer and start reading!!!!

    ***********************

    In the same copy of WIL, Virginia Woolf makes a comment about Lawrence. Seeing as so many of us are going to go on and read her next...why not post it?

    "Comparing (Lawrence) with Proust, one feels that he echoes nobody, continues no tradition, is unaware of the past, of the present save as it affects the future. As a writer, this lack of tradition affects him immensely...One feels that not a single word has been chosen for its beauty, or its effect upon the architect of the sentence."

    A question about WIL from my copy of the book...

    Why does Birkin so dislike the word "love"?
    "So heaven meets earth like a sloppy wet kiss, and my heart turns violently inside of my chest, I don't have time to maintain these regrets, when I think about, the way....He loves us..."


    http://youtube.com/watch?v=5xXowT4eJjY

  4. #229
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grace86 View Post
    Uh oh...I wonder who received that PM?! I think I sent it maybe a week and a half, or two weeks ago. Haha I was just letting you know I have the Barnes and Noble edition of WIL and it has some questions in the back for book club purposes, I thought they might be kind of interesting to post...the ones that haven't already been answered that is!
    Hi Grace, by the way, I have read your PM you sent to me and was going to answer tonight or tomorrow. Real life is beckoning me today - trying to organise and clean a little for now - in dire need of it. I spend too much time on this computer!
    Oh, glad you have those questions in your book. I would love to hear all of them. Can you either type them or scan the page?

    Don Quixote is waiting. I should probably get off the computer and start reading!!!!
    How will you two, you and Virgil, read "Don Quixote" and "To the Lighthouse" same time? Here you go again, Grace, with multiple books.
    Also, Virgil, did you forget the short story thread It's well underway. ktd is wondering when you will pop back into the Tortoise poetry thread, also. Anyone else interested please pop over there. We need discussers.
    ***********************

    In the same copy of WIL, Virginia Woolf makes a comment about Lawrence. Seeing as so many of us are going to go on and read her next...why not post it?

    "Comparing (Lawrence) with Proust, one feels that he echoes nobody, continues no tradition, is unaware of the past, of the present save as it affects the future. As a writer, this lack of tradition affects him immensely...One feels that not a single word has been chosen for its beauty, or its effect upon the architect of the sentence."
    I find this a rather strange statement coming from Woolf, especially the part about "lack of tradition" and then the part about "not a single word has been chosen for its beauty, or its effect upon the architect of the sentence."

    It is a curious statement considering Woolf did not seem to follow any traditional form of writing that I am aware of; so why is she criticising L for that? How does this affect him immensely? Is she saying it is a bad thing or only, that because of this and his manner of writing, his critics see him as lacking? or does she think so herself? I am totally in opposition to the last statement. I can't understand her saying that at all.


    A question about WIL from my copy of the book...

    Why does Birkin so dislike the word "love"?
    I don't really think, in finality, that Birkin is against love, the concept, - he is very much for it. He just does not think it can be labeled as a word - a mere word. He thinks it encompasses much more, actually too much for words to express, than the word "love" implies. He feels the word "love" is conventional and implies aspects he does not believe in, such as being possessive or all devouring of ones mate. His ideas are much broader and more infinite and free, therefore he says he does not like the word. It is the word he objects to and not the concept. He is merely redefining it and therefore sheds the word. I did not understand this idea until recently and it dawned on me, became clear.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  5. #230
    If grace is an ocean... grace86's Avatar
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    Okay here comes a bit of a Janine and Virgil post!

    Janine you can PM me whenever you like, I am always waiting on someone to get around to it!

    How will you two, you and Virgil, read "Don Quixote" and "To the Lighthouse" same time? Here you go again, Grace, with multiple books.
    Ahhh!!! You sound kind of like my mom! I think you are keeping an eye out for my better health! It will work somehow, "To the Lighthouse" has all summer anyway.

    I've never read any of Woolf's work so I can take the quote apart like you have started to Janine, but I cannot say I particularly agree with her much. Lawrence, may not be "traditional" in the traditional sense of the word (haha) but I don't agree with, "One feels that not a single word has been chosen for its beauty." You mentioned earlier on that some of the scenes from WIL have managed to stay with you years after having read them!

    The quote seems kind of funny being placed in Lawrence's work. The end of the book just has a lot of free standing quotes from other authors, critics, or what have you. To put her criticism in there seems a bit odd. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

    Just finished reading Continental, and that chapter has a lot to take in. Now that you guys know where I am standing in the remainder of the novel...I have some thoughts on it.

    I didn't like Loerke. Nor do I think Gudrun really felt that art and the world have nothing to do with one another. Otherwise, why would you create art? I think she was trying to gain some points with Loerke but I am not too sure why other than he is her type of creature in the world.

    What surprised me is how Gerald aided in alienating Ursula while he himself did not like Loerke. Goodness this book is just so human.

    It seems like a chapter foreshadowing doom. It seems to show a lot of finality and I think that Gudrun, Gerald and Birkin all felt it when they parted.

    ***********
    As for the question I posted, I agree with you Janine. Birkin does love regardless of whether he wants to or not. I do think that he feels there is more beyond it. At first Ursula didn't agree, but again in Continental, she was explaining it to Gudrun. I like the end of the chapter where Birkin tells Gerald:

    "I've loved you, as well as Gudrun, don't forget"

    I think Gerald kind of calls Birkin out (because Gerald has always been used to Birkin's unconventional way of thinking about love) when he responds:

    "Have you?...Or do you think you have?"

    Slightly unrelated to the question, I kind of think Gerald and Birkin switched places in their philosophy when that conversation takes place. Birkin seems so simplistic, but then maybe he is putting his philosophy into action. After all, he did think it silly to have love be something strictly between one man and one woman. I don't know, my brain is farting.

    But in that instance, I seemed to like Birkin more so than Gerald.


    The rest of the questions:

    1. In a foreword to Women in Love, D.H. Lawrence wrote, "In point of style, fault is often found with the continual, slightly modified repetition. The only answer is that it is natual to the author; and that every natual crisis in emotion or passion or understanding comes from this pulsing, frictional to-and-fro which works up to culmination." In the light of these remarks, what do you think of Lawrence's prose style? Is how he writes as significant as what he writes? Do you think Lawrence even cared about syle?

    2. Does the novel convince the reader that people have to reinvent love, that relations between men and women have gone radically awry, or that industrialism is to blame?

    3. Beyond surface squabbles, why is it that Gudrun and Gerald cannot establish a relationship that is life-enhancing rather than destructive?

    4. (question posed earlier) Why does Birkin so dislike the word "love"?

    ******

    That is it for now, I will post more when I finish the last two chapters.

    I forgot to mention that I found a new signature.

    From the last pages of Continental:

    "All right?" he said. "I never know what those common words mean. All right and all wrong, don't they become synonymous, somewhere?"
    When Gerald said that, I laughed just a little bit...How true!
    "So heaven meets earth like a sloppy wet kiss, and my heart turns violently inside of my chest, I don't have time to maintain these regrets, when I think about, the way....He loves us..."


    http://youtube.com/watch?v=5xXowT4eJjY

  6. #231
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grace86 View Post
    Okay here comes a bit of a Janine and Virgil post!

    Yes, and Grace you have accomplished one, definitely by the sheer length of this post.

    Janine you can PM me whenever you like, I am always waiting on someone to get around to it! !
    Good, thanks for understanding; if I could get away from all these fascinating posts and threads, I might be able to accomplish an answer tonight. I don't want to keep you waiting too long. Of course, my vacumn cleaner is still calling to me from real life. One room was accomplished, so far; always a slow process....too many distractions.

    Ahhh!!! You sound kind of like my mom! I think you are keeping an eye out for my better health! It will work somehow, "To the Lighthouse" has all summer anyway.
    Oh great! Now I am not even an aunt, I am a mom on Lit Net! Next you will be calling me the 'house mother.' Well, sorry I had not even thought of your health; purely selfish on my part, I am afraid; I was wondering if you and Virgil would neglect the one I am going to do, the one he talked me into voting for - "To the Lighthouse".

    I've never read any of Woolf's work so I can take the quote apart like you have started to Janine, but I cannot say I particularly agree with her much. Lawrence, may not be "traditional" in the traditional sense of the word (haha) but I don't agree with, "One feels that not a single word has been chosen for its beauty." You mentioned earlier on that some of the scenes from WIL have managed to stay with you years after having read them!
    I read two or Woolfs books - "To the Lighthouse" and "Mrs. Dalloway" - personally, I do find her style of writing harder to follow than Lawrence's. She strings words together beautifully, but I have problems paying attention to her long run-on sentences and the stream-of-consciousness style. My mind tends to wander off somewhere away from the book. Yes, the 'traditional' reference rather makes me laugh, unless I am not understanding her correctly. I just can't understand what she means about the words being not "choosen for beauty". That one really miffs me. I think Lawrence uses beautiful words and combines them in order to paint a very graphic scene. If you read the short story we are doing currently his descriptions of the woodlands are marvelous - makes one want to got to England and smell those flowers in the fields. What about the scene when Birkin goes off into the fir grove and the field naked. Is that not beautifully written. Maybe she objected to his sensuality, who knows?

    The quote seems kind of funny being placed in Lawrence's work. The end of the book just has a lot of free standing quotes from other authors, critics, or what have you. To put her criticism in there seems a bit odd. Anyone have any thoughts on that?
    It is odd they would include this critique, in the back of the book, since they would be trying to sell the book, not turn people away. Perhaps they put her quote in to balance out any good quotes and give a fairer assessment - not my thinking but maybe the publishers - publishers do some very odd things to books. Lawrence knew this all too well.
    You know L wrote comments and critiques of his own and I don't think he entirely liked certain authors, and he may have downright hated some for all I know; of couse, eveyone is entitled to their opinion. L wrote whole books on his analysis. One essay is on Thomas Hardy; this I have read, but I don't remember too much of it now. It is quite interesting though. He wrote another on Melville. These authors I believe he did like to a great degree. Now in reference to Proust, who is mentioned in that quote, I believe he did not care for him. He felt he spend too many hours on the miniscule details such as describing an inanimate object such as a chair. You can imagine why that would turn L off.

    Just finished reading Continental, and that chapter has a lot to take in. Now that you guys know where I am standing in the remainder of the novel...I have some thoughts on it.
    Is that the chapter when they first embark on the vacation in the mountains? Boy, I might have to read the book again, already I have forgotten. Is senility setting in?

    I didn't like Loerke. Nor do I think Gudrun really felt that art and the world have nothing to do with one another. Otherwise, why would you create art? I think she was trying to gain some points with Loerke but I am not too sure why other than he is her type of creature in the world.
    We'll, I don't think we are meant to particularly like Loerke. He is described by Birkin and Gerald in rather low terms, dispicable terms such as rat, etc. - far from pleasant references. He is also physically described sort of sleazy, don't you think, and unattractive? Ursula is fascinated at first, but then she does not like him at all. Most of the characters, except Gudrun, abhore him. Not even sure if Gundrun truly likes Loerke. I think the idea is if 'Art can serve Industry' - I am not as up on this concept; Virgil may be able to answer better than I can. We will have to turn this one over to him. I certainly can see how Birkin and Ursula would turn away from this concept. It does seem that Gudrun sculpted small animals and such and was more connected to the earth than to industry. I think she is simply enmoured by Loerke's mystique and talent. She is in awe of him and his work and significance as an artist. Also, Loerke may be sleazy, but he is straight-forward with Gundrun, whereas she is caught in a power struggle with Gerald, which by now is playing itself out. That was inevitable. They are burning down to nothing in their relationship - Gerald and Gudrun - so she simply looks to someone else for comfort and understanding, even if he is not a good choice for Gudrun. He still fills a gap for her in some weird way.

    What surprised me is how Gerald aided in alienating Ursula while he himself did not like Loerke. Goodness this book is just so human.
    Love that last statement of yours - yes, soooo human! In this statement do you mean Gerald aided in alienating Gudrun; you said Ursula....if it is Ursula...I don't understand the question.

    It seems like a chapter foreshadowing doom. It seems to show a lot of finality and I think that Gudrun, Gerald and Birkin all felt it when they parted.
    Definitely, good observation, Grace. Now you are percieving the clues as to what is to come. I think they all felt it as well, as you pointed out. Interesting you picked that up since no one mentioned it yet. See, everyone sees something different or picks up on things others miss.
    ***********
    As for the question I posted, I agree with you Janine. Birkin does love regardless of whether he wants to or not. I do think that he feels there is more beyond it. At first Ursula didn't agree, but again in Continental, she was explaining it to Gudrun. I like the end of the chapter where Birkin tells Gerald:

    "I've loved you, as well as Gudrun, don't forget"

    I think Gerald kind of calls Birkin out (because Gerald has always been used to Birkin's unconventional way of thinking about love) when he responds:

    "Have you?...Or do you think you have?"

    Slightly unrelated to the question, I kind of think Gerald and Birkin switched places in their philosophy when that conversation takes place. Birkin seems so simplistic, but then maybe he is putting his philosophy into action. After all, he did think it silly to have love be something strictly between one man and one woman. I don't know, my brain is farting.

    But in that instance, I seemed to like Birkin more so than Gerald.
    Interesting idea. I am not sure I quite understand yet - can you expound on it a bit and help me know what you mean "switched places in their philosophy"? Can you site any quotes to better illustrate that point or that feeling? Is must be your brain condition - you might try an antacid.... No serously write more - I am listening to your concept. Yes, I find (new, quiet) Birkin to be the stronger of the two men now in character.
    Why do you think Gerald questions Birkin's declaration of love towards him?


    The rest of the questions:

    1. In a foreword to Women in Love, D.H. Lawrence wrote, "In point of style, fault is often found with the continual, slightly modified repetition. The only answer is that it is natual to the author; and that every natual crisis in emotion or passion or understanding comes from this pulsing, frictional to-and-fro which works up to culmination." In the light of these remarks, what do you think of Lawrence's prose style? Is how he writes as significant as what he writes? Do you think Lawrence even cared about syle?
    Wow, I must be pretty well read on Lawrence. I just read this quote in a book. I thought it was marvelous, that he would admit that he uses repetition and explains it is natural to the author (himself). Also, the last part seemed to express just what we have been saying about the rhythms in the book "pulsing, frictional the to-and-fro" ....and Woolf thought Lawrence lacked a way with words...hummm....
    I did read something about the fact that L did not care to worry about style or correctness in his writing. Often you may notice he uses words like 'whitey' or 'bluey or similiar ones and combinations that he, no doubt, took the liberty to make up. Someone on another L thread pointed out how incorrect L was, in doing this, and how no publisher would accept this type of writing. I differed in opinion on that matter and said it was 'poetic license' to do so, that he was more than justified - he is the author, afterall. Lawrence's prose is so close to poetry and I think it totally acceptable that he wrote as he felt inclined to write - that was his unique quality. e.e cummings - now do you think he worried about form? He did not even use capital letters. Shakespeare made up zillions of words, that were finally added into our dictionaries, which include the same exact words we commonly use today. 'Big deal' is my reply - I don't think L cared on morsal about the idea of form. He wrote naturally, as he said, what was natural to himself. Yet inspite of this, he wrote beautifully and I think it is important to his writing and his stories. Is it as significant as his themes and his ideas? I don't know - how can one separate them and why would one want to?
    2. Does the novel convince the reader that people have to reinvent love, that relations between men and women have gone radically awry, or that industrialism is to blame?
    I think that it does. I think that is the intention of L in the book. He did feel that things had gone radically awry with the world and much was caused by industrialism. I don't know if you are aware of this but L was great friends to the very last days of his life with Aldoux Huxley who wrote "Brave New World". Have you ever read the book? I just recently went back to re-read it since I found in one of my biographies references to it and one said that Huxley fashioned the main character from Lawrence. Interesting and I did most definitely see paralells between the two men. Brave New World deals with a world that has gone awry by mass production and industralism, capitalism. It is a very good book and brings out some of the same ideas that Birkin/Lawrence is fortelling in this book.

    3. Beyond surface squabbles, why is it that Gudrun and Gerald cannot establish a relationship that is life-enhancing rather than destructive?
    They are too much in oppostion from the start. Although drawn to each other physically - their relationship is based on false values. They both want power over each other. This I have already addressed in prior posts.

    4. (question posed earlier) Why does Birkin so dislike the word "love"?
    This I answerd in my other post.
    ******

    That is it for now, I will post more when I finish the last two chapters.
    Take your time I need a break - I am all burned out by now! Long involved post and all. I am nearly 'brain dead'.

    I forgot to mention that I found a new signature.

    Quote:
    "All right?" he said. "I never know what those common words mean. All right and all wrong, don't they become synonymous, somewhere?"

    When Gerald said that, I laughed just a little bit...How true!
    Go for it!
    Last edited by Janine; 07-01-2007 at 12:50 AM.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  7. #232
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grace86 View Post
    Uh oh...I wonder who received that PM?! I think I sent it maybe a week and a half, or two weeks ago. Haha I was just letting you know I have the Barnes and Noble edition of WIL and it has some questions in the back for book club purposes, I thought they might be kind of interesting to post...the ones that haven't already been answered that is!
    Oh wait. I do remember now Grace. You did send it. I recently cleaned out my posts because by mail box was near full. I'm sorry if i didn't reply. I must have set it aside with the thought of getting back to it and forgot.

    A question about WIL from my copy of the book...

    Why does Birkin so dislike the word "love"?
    That is not an easy answer. The short answer is that he/Lawrence feels that there is something more important than love, related to his off beat religious ideas.
    Last edited by Virgil; 07-01-2007 at 09:29 AM.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  8. #233
    malkavian manolia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janine View Post
    Yes, undoubtably many people will like "Snowed Up" best. Do you feel that, in that chapter, is the true climax of the book? I did think it. It seemed the most dramatic, asside from "Water-Party". I think both of those were my favorite chapters. I liked "Excurse" and "Moony" very much, too. Oh heck, I liked the whole book really!
    Yes Janine, those chapters ("Moony" and "Excurse") are nice too. But "Snowed Up" is the best for me. I think it is the climax (you know climax is a greek word and it means "Stairway" - hence caspian's feelings of climbing a mountain)

    Quote Originally Posted by Janine View Post
    Hey manolia, maybe we can get them manufactured and sell on Lit Net! haha You are right and we think alike; I think will I be white haired, on my deathbed and in a nursing home, and I will be saying "no can't die yet, give me one more of my books off my stack!" By then my stack will be a mountain. maybe Caspian's mountain....
    Especially the last phrase. So witty

    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    Apocalypse is an interesting read, but I think one needs to have read a bit of Lawrence's fiction in order to find it interesting I think. It's like listening to Birkin pontificate.
    I agree with this. One must read his works first and then start to read biographies, letters etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    Thanks. Life does call. Actually today is my 16th wedding aniversary. We'll be going out into the city tonight. I will definitely say something about that fabulous conclusion.
    What does one wish in this occasion? Have a happy anniversary!

    Quote Originally Posted by grace86 View Post
    A question about WIL from my copy of the book...

    Why does Birkin so dislike the word "love"?
    I think he dislikes the meaning that ordinary people give to this word. That most people tend to dominate their partners, like Hermione did and that one can't retain himself/herself and is merely swallowed up and loses his/hers individuality in a relationship.

    EDIT

    Quote Originally Posted by grace86 View Post
    2. Does the novel convince the reader that people have to reinvent love, that relations between men and women have gone radically awry, or that industrialism is to blame?
    I don't know if the novel convinces the reader..this depends on the reader i guess and how willing he/she is to be convinced but i agree that one of the main points of the book is to show that relations between men and women have gone radically awry. The way i took it, industrialism is to be blamed (according to L always) for many things that are bad. He seems to have a liking for the ages past (can;t recall right now where he actually says that). It is evident that he (through Birkin always) has a strong dislike for some new radical ideas (in the chapter the "Industrial magnet" i got the feeling, i am almost sure by now, that he was refering to marxism as well..where he explains how the colliers rebelled against the authority of Mr Crich, Gerald's father). It seems that L was a bit of a "conservative" person (with the political meaning of the word)..by that i mean that i agree with Virgil's opinion that he was friendly towards fascism. I can't be sure though since it is his only novel i have read. I believe that Janine and Virgil will explain that better.
    Last edited by manolia; 07-01-2007 at 02:45 PM.
    Through the darkness of future past
    the magician longs to see
    one chance out between two worlds
    'Fire walk with me.'


    Twin Peaks

  9. #234
    If grace is an ocean... grace86's Avatar
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    I have finished the book! I stayed up last night and read the last few pages! I must say that I was very sad . You know, at first I thought this book was about Gudrun and Ursula, but now, I think it was more about Rupert and Birkin.

    So sad none of them had a happy ending. Sounds like even Birkin gave up in the end.

    Originally Posted by Virgil
    Oh wait. I do remember now Grace. You did send it. I recently cleaned out my posts because by mail box was near full. I'm sorry if i didn't reply. I must have set it aside with the thought of getting back to it and forgot.
    No problem there, at least I know the right person received it. I just had to clear out my PM box as well.

    Originally posted by Janine
    Oh great! Now I am not even an aunt, I am a mom on Lit Net! Next you will be calling me the 'house mother.' Well, sorry I had not even thought of your health; purely selfish on my part, I am afraid; I was wondering if you and Virgil would neglect the one I am going to do, the one he talked me into voting for - "To the Lighthouse".
    Hmm aparently we have heard that before, no?? Well I guess it would be bad of both of us not to read To the Lighthouse!

    Originally posted by Janine
    Love that last statement of yours - yes, soooo human! In this statement do you mean Gerald aided in alienating Gudrun; you said Ursula....if it is Ursula...I don't understand the question.
    No! Ursula and Gudrun were speaking to Loerke, and then Gerald comes up while Ursula is pointing out that art and the real world have everything to do with each other. Gerald sides with Gudrun's opinions on it and so Ursula walked away, three to one. Unless I have it mixed up. I had thought that weird of Gerald considering how much he disliked Loerke.

    Originally posted by Janine
    Interesting idea. I am not sure I quite understand yet - can you expound on it a bit and help me know what you mean "switched places in their philosophy"? Can you site any quotes to better illustrate that point or that feeling? Is must be your brain condition - you might try an antacid.... No serously write more - I am listening to your concept. Yes, I find (new, quiet) Birkin to be the stronger of the two men now in character.
    Why do you think Gerald questions Birkin's declaration of love towards him?
    I am not sure exactly what was going on between Gerald and Birkin at the end of that chapter, the brain fart went away, but Gerald seemed to play more of the sceptic regarding love. To me it seemed that he was always trying to convince Birkin that love was all there is, kind of like Birkin was making life harder than it was...but then when Birkin finally comes out and admits it, Gerald questions it. I would kind of expect that having known Birkin, he would understand Birkin's truthfulness.

    Birkin seems more human and loving in that scene than Gerald.

    *****SPOILER??**********

    By the end of the book though, Birkin admits to Ursula his feelings toward Gerald...did he ever really surpass love? He was always looking for what was beyond it, but did him and Ursula ever reach it? He didn't reach it with Gerald either right? I don't think that he realized that love is ALL there is.

    I don't particularly like how Ursula treated Birkin at the end either.

    All for now, off to the short story!
    "So heaven meets earth like a sloppy wet kiss, and my heart turns violently inside of my chest, I don't have time to maintain these regrets, when I think about, the way....He loves us..."


    http://youtube.com/watch?v=5xXowT4eJjY

  10. #235
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janine View Post
    How will you two, you and Virgil, read "Don Quixote" and "To the Lighthouse" same time? Here you go again, Grace, with multiple books.
    I will read Don Quixote first until I have reached a couple of hundred pages and then switch to To The lighthouse. I'll probably start Woolf at the beginning of August.

    Also, Virgil, did you forget the short story thread It's well underway. ktd is wondering when you will pop back into the Tortoise poetry thread, also. Anyone else interested please pop over there. We need discussers.
    I know. I just haven't had the time. I'll try this week. Sorry. It's hard.

    I find this a rather strange statement coming from Woolf, especially the part about "lack of tradition" and then the part about "not a single word has been chosen for its beauty, or its effect upon the architect of the sentence."
    Well, I'm pretty sure she did not like Lawrence. It is a little strange. We assume that other writers understand each other's works, but I doubt Woolf understood Lawrence at all. I brought out a number of Lawrence's ideas but my understanding came out of critical commentary which was built up by several decades of commentary by many critics. You know the first 25 years of lawrence criticism after his death is mostly wrong. It took until the 1960s for critics to finally begin to understand him. Woolf is wrong. Lawrence comes out out of the tradition of Wordsworth, Shelley, Whitman, Geore Elliot, and Thomas Hardy. Of course he's got his own ideas and he's definitely a modernist in style and attitude.

    Quote Originally Posted by grace86 View Post
    I didn't like Loerke.
    I absolutely hated him. I was just reading some commentary and the critic referred to Loerke as homosexual. Did I miss that? I knew he was different but I did not see him as homosexual. But then he was with that other guy at the beginning of the chapter.

    Nor do I think Gudrun really felt that art and the world have nothing to do with one another. Otherwise, why would you create art? I think she was trying to gain some points with Loerke but I am not too sure why other than he is her type of creature in the world.
    That is interesting, and I think Gudrun contradicts her art philosophy from what she described earlier in the novel, especially when she is teaching Gerald's sister.

    Slightly unrelated to the question, I kind of think Gerald and Birkin switched places in their philosophy when that conversation takes place. Birkin seems so simplistic, but then maybe he is putting his philosophy into action. After all, he did think it silly to have love be something strictly between one man and one woman. I don't know, my brain is farting.
    Like I said elsewhere in this thread, I never understand what Lawrence is saying when he's referring to man/man friendship.

    1. In a foreword to Women in Love, D.H. Lawrence wrote, "In point of style, fault is often found with the continual, slightly modified repetition. The only answer is that it is natual to the author; and that every natual crisis in emotion or passion or understanding comes from this pulsing, frictional to-and-fro which works up to culmination." In the light of these remarks, what do you think of Lawrence's prose style? Is how he writes as significant as what he writes? Do you think Lawrence even cared about syle?
    Yes I do. I think very highly of his prose style, to me the best English stylist of all the fiction writers of the 20th century. Now he broke a lot of rules and was somewhat careless, but to me no one writing in English in the 20th century captures intensity, mood, conflict, character so smoothly and beautifully. His "to-and-fro" style may seem repetitive, but each repetion brings a higher intensity to the moment.

    2. Does the novel convince the reader that people have to reinvent love, that relations between men and women have gone radically awry, or that industrialism is to blame?
    It makes a good argument, but convincing people is not the aim of fiction. The aim of fiction is to present a vision (hey we'll see that in To The Lighthouse!) and present a comprehensive world that works to the author's rules of life and ultimately dramatises human xperience. Lawrence does this for sure. Whether you agree with those rules doesn't matter. It's the author's originality and consistentancy of that world that matters.

    3. Beyond surface squabbles, why is it that Gudrun and Gerald cannot establish a relationship that is life-enhancing rather than destructive?
    Complicated question. I would need a term paper to answer that completely. I would say that they cannot break the cycles of modern life (sex, work, relationship, art, experience) and reach the spiritual awareness that transcends life. Lawrence is ultimately a religous writer, albeit his own unconventional religion.

    4. (question posed earlier) Why does Birkin so dislike the word "love"?
    I think that love is a human thing and Birkin is trying to transcend humanity. I think he fears it will be another cycle. Remember nirvana is a vegetative type of existence, and plants and flowers don't experience love. But Birkin learns at the end that he is ultimately human (this learning goes on in several of Lawrence's other works) and that he is not a flower, at least in this world. So he fears love but I think accepts it in the end. I hope that makes sense.

    Sorry for all these posts in a row, but i'm trying to catch up.


    Quote Originally Posted by Janine View Post
    We'll, I don't think we are meant to particularly like Loerke. He is described by Birkin and Gerald in rather low terms, dispicable terms such as rat, etc. - far from pleasant references. He is also physically described sort of sleazy, don't you think, and unattractive? Ursula is fascinated at first, but then she does not like him at all. Most of the characters, except Gudrun, abhore him. Not even sure if Gundrun truly likes Loerke. I think the idea is if 'Art can serve Industry' - I am not as up on this concept; Virgil may be able to answer better than I can. We will have to turn this one over to him.
    I think that Loerke supports the Futurists art philosophy that was going around at the beginning of the 20th century. Read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futurism_(art). It would go against what Lawrence believes art is. A good comparison would be Birkin's drawing of that anmal that Hermione tries to analyze. I forget what chapter that is. Remember that?

    I certainly can see how Birkin and Ursula would turn away from this concept. It does seem that Gudrun sculpted small animals and such and was more connected to the earth than to industry.
    Yes I think she contradicts her own art style and philosophy.

    I think she is simply enmoured by Loerke's mystique and talent. She is in awe of him and his work and significance as an artist. Also, Loerke may be sleazy, but he is straight-forward with Gundrun, whereas she is caught in a power struggle with Gerald, which by now is playing itself out. That was inevitable. They are burning down to nothing in their relationship - Gerald and Gudrun - so she simply looks to someone else for comfort and understanding, even if he is not a good choice for Gudrun. He still fills a gap for her in some weird way.
    She does feel some strange sexual desire for Loerke, in a low sort of way. She is undergoing another cycle of lust and searching for experience. I think that is the key. It is a new experience, the climbing of another ice world mountain. And you can see how these mountains are endless.

    Wow, I must be pretty well read on Lawrence. I just read this quote in a book. I thought it was marvelous, that he would admit that he uses repetition and explains it is natural to the author (himself). Also, the last part seemed to express just what we have been saying about the rhythms in the book "pulsing, frictional the to-and-fro" ....and Woolf thought Lawrence lacked a way with words...hummm....
    I did read something about the fact that L did not care to worry about style or correctness in his writing.
    He was naturally gifted, and i don't think he spent an overwhelming amount of time cleaning up his writing, but form and structure is very carefully developed in his great works. He definitely gives form a lot of thought. Look at how carefull and perfectly WIL is structured. The same goes for his short stoies and poems.

    They are too much in oppostion from the start. Although drawn to each other physically - their relationship is based on false values. They both want power over each other. This I have already addressed in prior posts.
    I tend to disagree, janine. I think they are very similar, both searching for a new intense experience, this lover or that lover, and both can never be satisfied.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  11. #236
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manolia View Post
    Yes Janine, those chapters ("Moony" and "Excurse") are nice too. But "Snowed Up" is the best for me. I think it is the climax (you know climax is a greek word and it means "Stairway" - hence caspian's feelings of climbing a mountain)
    Wow, look what happens when you abandon your computer for a day and an evening. So many posts here to answer. I needed a rest and thought maybe it would be nice also, to give someone else a chance to post today. You all did brilliantly without me.


    Hi manolia, our official translator and word origin consultant. No, I did not know 'climax' was Greek; see you are teaching me all the time. That is interesting that it means "Stairway"....just think, in the song "Stairway to Heaven" they just might be talking about something else...hmmm...or have I misinterpreted that song wrong all these years...hummm


    Especially the last phrase. So witty
    Thanks, always happy to be at your service! Comes from years of watching those witty films........or was it from reading Owen Meany?

    I agree with this. One must read his works first and then start to read biographies, letters etc.
    This is more than true indeed, although a brief biography is beneficial in understanding Lawrence. Since "Sons and Lovers" is basically autobiographical, although fiction, I usually prescribe that as a good direction to begin with to learn about his early years, formative years. Now that you can see L's beliefs taking form, having read WIL, it is great to go back and see how they originated in this book. His later works and his very first early novels, such as "The White Peacock" and "The Trespasser" also I would recomment only for those well read in Lawrence, who simply want to investigate his beginnings and early work.

    What does one wish in this occasion? Have a happy anniversary!
    Virgil, I second that, although I am afraid I am a little late; please forgive. Hope you and your wife had a nice evening out and a lovely anniversary dinner together.

    I think he dislikes the meaning that ordinary people give to this word. That most people tend to dominate their partners, like Hermione did and that one can't retain himself/herself and is merely swallowed up and loses his/hers individuality in a relationship.
    Way back several posts ago, I wrote an answer to this question, too and basically agreed with all you say, especially your first line. Yes, Birkin hated the way Hermione twisted that word, love, to suit her. Yes, with Hermione love represented power over Birkin. I like everything you put in this paragraph and agree completely - very well put, manolia.

    I don't know if the novel convinces the reader..this depends on the reader i guess and how willing he/she is to be convinced but i agree that one of the main points of the book is to show that relations between men and women have gone radically awry. The way i took it, industrialism is to be blamed (according to L always) for many things that are bad. He seems to have a liking for the ages past (can;t recall right now where he actually says that). It is evident that he (through Birkin always) has a strong dislike for some new radical ideas (in the chapter the "Industrial magnet" i got the feeling, i am almost sure by now, that he was refering to marxism as well..where he explains how the colliers rebelled against the authority of Mr Crich, Gerald's father). It seems that L was a bit of a "conservative" person (with the political meaning of the word)..by that i mean that i agree with Virgil's opinion that he was friendly towards fascism. I can't be sure though since it is his only novel i have read. I believe that Janine and Virgil will explain that better.
    I agree with most of your post and it is well stated. When we get to the political part I am not that versed on the terms and the labels. I don't know if L was actually friendly towards fascism. I think he was against capitalism and he wanted a new order to things, a new idea. I am doubtful fascism would fit the bill. Probably Virgil knows a lot more about this than I do. I can't hardly think of another book that deals with this type political subject matter. I can only think of "Kangaroo", which I did not read, but I saw the BBC film version -very good. It also dealt with the workers and unions and an eminent overthrow of authority, and it is based on some bit of truth. Interesting film and I will read the book soon, out of sheer curiostiy. But there again that represents only a brief time in L's life. He was very changable throughout his life and I am not too sure he had such a definite vision of what exactly he did believe in the final analysis. I will let you know after reading "Apogalypse". As far as the political terms I need to do more research on those, which would certainly be beneficial to me anyway. I am not too political minded, I admit.

    Quote by Grace
    I have finished the book! I stayed up last night and read the last few pages! I must say that I was very sad . You know, at first I thought this book was about Gudrun and Ursula, but now, I think it was more about Rupert and Birkin.
    Grace, good for you! I am really proud of you sticking with it. Glad you found it interesting and got so envolved in the story. It will be a book that will stay with you for a long time and continue to create conjecture in your mind. Personally I like books like that when one never fully figures them out. So human, don't you think? You used that word and phrase before, but it is true that many times we really cannot fully figure out another human being.

    How interesting that now you think it is more about Rupert and Birkin. I think you have come up with something very interesting and important. Also, of interest is the fact of L giving the book the title "Women in Love" and not "Men in Love"; actually Lawrence wanted to call it "The Sisters" to begin with. He also, had a few other names in mind. Often publishers came up with his titles or suggested them. Maybe he intentionally started the book with the two women/sisters and then the emphasis shifts by the last few lines to the relationship of the men. Interesting turn around it is not?

    So sad none of them had a happy ending. Sounds like even Birkin gave up in the end.
    *SPOILER*
    Yes, there is a certain sadness in the ending with the death of Gerald. I was especially torn up when Birkin sat viewing the frozen body. That was truly heartwretching. I felt so badly for him at that moment when he broke down and wept. I do think of all the relationships in the book he and Gerald were two of the closest and most honest with each other. They definitely had a bond that went beyond mere words.
    But Gerald's actual death scene I feel is so very devastating and tragic. One cannot express it in words.
    I never really have gotten the idea or the thought that Birkin would give up though by that ending. I always thought they would go onto be happy and work it all out in the end. I did not feel the ending hopeles in the least. I only felt that Birkin would forever have the sorrow of losing one person he dearly loved and as one knows who has lost any loved one you cannot fill that gap. It does not mean you can't go on and have a furfilled life and love beyond that. Perhaps I derrive this belief now in knowing that Lawrence and his own wife worked throught their differences and came through to a better life. Lawrence even wrote "Coming Through" a series of poems on their struggle in their marriage. So I may be influenced by that. But I think first time I read the ending I did not know anything about L's personal life and I still did not see it as hopeless since Birkin's ideas were so strongly imbedded in the book and the themes.
    :
    Originally Posted by Virgil
    Oh wait. I do remember now Grace. You did send it. I recently cleaned out my posts because by mail box was near full. I'm sorry if i didn't reply. I must have set it aside with the thought of getting back to it and forgot.
    Hey, Grace, he has been doing this with my emails, too. I don't know Virg, you are not losing it are you?...hummm.... like early senility...haha

    :
    Originally posted by Janine:
    Oh great! Now I am not even an aunt, I am a mom on Lit Net! Next you will be calling me the 'house mother.'
    Quote by Grace:
    Hmm aparently we have heard that before, no?? Well I guess it would be bad of both of us not to read To the Lighthouse!
    Well, yes, once on another thread, the young people said - oh we can call you Aunt Janine. I said that's ok. Janine is just fine! Good - you recalled the "....Lighthouse" - yes, would be bad of you after talking me into re-reading it and joining the group.

    No! Ursula and Gudrun were speaking to Loerke, and then Gerald comes up while Ursula is pointing out that art and the real world have everything to do with each other. Gerald sides with Gudrun's opinions on it and so Ursula walked away, three to one. Unless I have it mixed up. I had thought that weird of Gerald considering how much he disliked Loerke.
    That refreshes my memory. Yes, I was mixing and matching scenes. I need a re-read already...yikes! Yes, Gerald did seem to do that. He seemed to want to get Ursula out of the way, didn't he? Maybe he wanted Gudrun all to himself and just was aligning himself with her. Wasn't Loerke present in that scene? If not he did not have to deal with him, at least temporarily.

    I am not sure exactly what was going on between Gerald and Birkin at the end of that chapter, the brain fart went away, but Gerald seemed to play more of the sceptic regarding love. To me it seemed that he was always trying to convince Birkin that love was all there is, kind of like Birkin was making life harder than it was...but then when Birkin finally comes out and admits it, Gerald questions it. I would kind of expect that having known Birkin, he would understand Birkin's truthfulness.
    Ok, now I think I pretty much understand what you mean. That makes more sense and is more specific to a scene and a conversation.

    Birkin seems more human and loving in that scene than Gerald.
    I think this too; Gerald seems to have closed life off from himself and is not really able to love in the deep sense of the word the way Birkin has defined it. I think Birkin is more whole in his life now and Gerald is so lacking and inert by the end of the novel.

    *****SPOILER??**********

    By the end of the book though, Birkin admits to Ursula his feelings toward Gerald...did he ever really surpass love? He was always looking for what was beyond it, but did him and Ursula ever reach it? He didn't reach it with Gerald either right? I don't think that he realized that love is ALL there is.

    I don't particularly like how Ursula treated Birkin at the end either.
    Two hard things to comment on. I am not sure how I felt about whether he never found what he was looking for. I think he did with Ursula but not yet. That would take more time. Remember they are newly weds and just starting their life together. I think their own bonding would take time. He might be looking for what was beyond it and this is probably true of Lawrence's own life. He was a very restless man and moved about always on some quest for the answers; whether he found it is very questionable. I believe scholars have been trying to figure that one out for years now. I think then it is reflected in these last statements in the book.
    No, I don't know what she was at the end; was she surprised, appalled, jealous, unsure of their relationship? I think it would be something each of us would interpret differently. I felt her eyes only reflected the question at the end of the book.

    All for now, off to the short story!
    Go for it Grace! We need you over there in the short story thread. Pensive and Downing are doing great - but more oppinions/commentary would be wonderful.

    I will answer Virgil's three posts in the next post. He got a head of me already; and I don't want to lose this long post in cyberspace so I had better hit the submit button.

    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    I will read Don Quixote first until I have reached a couple of hundred pages and then switch to To The lighthouse. I'll probably start Woolf at the beginning of August.
    Good plan! However once you get there it will be well underway I am sure. There is much enthusiasm in that thread and some have read it already. It is not a long book but I think it is more difficult to read like Joyce is, well at least to me they are. It is a more concentrated text, not as easy as Lawrence to read. Lawrence is just hard to interpret, don't you think?

    I know. I just haven't had the time. I'll try this week. Sorry. It's hard.
    Ok, well us girls are doing fine without you, but I thought you would rally in the midst of the women-folk. You know you love that! It is such a short short short story...moan moan....

    Well, I'm pretty sure she did not like Lawrence. It is a little strange. We assume that other writers understand each other's works, but I doubt Woolf understood Lawrence at all. I brought out a number of Lawrence's ideas but my understanding came out of critical commentary which was built up by several decades of commentary by many critics. You know the first 25 years of lawrence criticism after his death is mostly wrong. It took until the 1960s for critics to finally begin to understand him. Woolf is wrong. Lawrence comes out out of the tradition of Wordsworth, Shelley, Whitman, Geore Elliot, and Thomas Hardy. Of course he's got his own ideas and he's definitely a modernist in style and attitude.
    This is great and clarifies it all for me. I doubt she would like him at all. I doubt he liked her either. Well, wonder why they would quote her in this edition of the novel. Odd.

    I absolutely hated him. I was just reading some commentary and the critic referred to Loerke as homosexual. Did I miss that? I knew he was different but I did not see him as homosexual. But then he was with that other guy at the beginning of the chapter.
    Hello Virgil, yes, he definitely was a homosexual. I believe it even states this clearly in the text, using the term, not just suggesting it. He had the young partner, definitely his boyfriend, from the beginning. There was a passage where it stated that their relationship had played itself out. They definitely had had a relationship. I believe actually Loerke was capable of being bisexual, as well; was certainly physically attracted to Gudrun. I think with him anything could be possible. He was a sleezy person. Gudrun notes he could not get any lower, somewhere in the book. People like this have a strange allure sometimes for women. It is similiar to the way so many women write to prison inmates and fall in love with them, knowing they are low-life and even guilty of their crimes. I found Loerke repulsive as well.

    That is interesting, and I think Gudrun contradicts her art philosophy from what she described earlier in the novel, especially when she is teaching Gerald's sister.
    I thought she shifted her position in order to align herself with Lorke in order to hurt Gerald or lord her consumate power over him. I don't think Gudrun cared two pins for Loerke. I think of Loerke as a diversion and a kind of pawn in her game or power with Gerald. Loerke happened to be there and fit the bill and created the wedge Gudrun needed to alienate Gerald finally from her. Loerke was the last straw - the cataylist to disaster.


    Like I said elsewhere in this thread, I never understand what Lawrence is saying when he's referring to man/man friendship.
    Very hard to fathom exactly what. Maybe we just don't have enough information to really 'know' definitively.

    Quote by Grace:
    1. In a foreword to Women in Love, D.H. Lawrence wrote, "In point of style, fault is often found with the continual, slightly modified repetition. The only answer is that it is natual to the author; and that every natual crisis in emotion or passion or understanding comes from this pulsing, frictional to-and-fro which works up to culmination." In the light of these remarks, what do you think of Lawrence's prose style? Is how he writes as significant as what he writes? Do you think Lawrence even cared about syle?
    Yes I do. I think very highly of his prose style, to me the best English stylist of all the fiction writers of the 20th century. Now he broke a lot of rules and was somewhat careless, but to me no one writing in English in the 20th century captures intensity, mood, conflict, character so smoothly and beautifully. His "to-and-fro" style may seem repetitive, but each repetion brings a higher intensity to the moment.
    That "to-and-fro" style is like a staircase....
    Very eloquently put, Virgil, and I am in full agreement. This is why I love Lawrence's work. I can accept what faults he had and some confusion or my own lack of understanding him. His faults were only human and actually make me like him even more. It shows a 'man' wrote this book and not some unattainable 'god'. He gets right into ones head and infiltrates your whole being when you are reading him. It is 'in the blood', as he put it. One has access to the workings of the man himself. I admire this 'revealing' quality.

    Quote:
    2. Does the novel convince the reader that people have to reinvent love, that relations between men and women have gone radically awry, or that industrialism is to blame?
    It makes a good argument, but convincing people is not the aim of fiction. The aim of fiction is to present a vision (hey we'll see that in To The Lighthouse!) and present a comprehensive world that works to the author's rules of life and ultimately dramatises human xperience. Lawrence does this for sure. Whether you agree with those rules doesn't matter. It's the author's originality and consistentancy of that world that matters.
    Another eloquently phrased post. I agree with every word of what you say. It explains that so well.

    3. Beyond surface squabbles, why is it that Gudrun and Gerald cannot establish a relationship that is life-enhancing rather than destructive?
    Complicated question. I would need a term paper to answer that completely. I would say that they cannot break the cycles of modern life (sex, work, relationship, art, experience) and reach the spiritual awareness that transcends life. Lawrence is ultimately a religous writer, albeit his own unconventional religion.
    Virgil - really, perfect answer to a difficult question!


    4. (question posed earlier) Why does Birkin so dislike the word "love"?
    I think that love is a human thing and Birkin is trying to transcend humanity. I think he fears it will be another cycle. Remember nirvana is a vegetative type of existence, and plants and flowers don't experience love. But Birkin learns at the end that he is ultimately human (this learning goes on in several of Lawrence's other works) and that he is not a flower, at least in this world. So he fears love but I think accepts it in the end. I hope that makes sense.
    That is an interesting theory. I like it and it satisfies me, at least for the time being. Like Lawrence, I might change my mind tomorrow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    Sorry for all these posts in a row, but i'm trying to catch up.
    We must have been posting similiar time tonight. I was working on one and then saw you had answered ones I asked earlier.
    Virgil, now it is my turn to neglect an email. I am just too tired now to respond. I was tired last night too and busy. I will respond tomorrow, promise.


    I think that Loerke supports the Futurists art philosophy that was going around at the beginning of the 20th century. Read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futurism_(art). It would go against what Lawrence believes art is. A good comparison would be Birkin's drawing of that anmal that Hermione tries to analyze. I forget what chapter that is. Remember that?
    Excellent - thanks for the link. I will definitely read up on that, but again - will have to be tomorrow - too late now. I am curious. I don't recall much about that movement in college. I was basically interested in different eras of art.

    Yes I think she contradicts her own art style and philosophy.
    I thought so but was not sure entirely; glad you answered this one. Also it seems that Gudrun is still in that experimental stage that all artist's go through, not really settled on any set or established style yet.


    She does feel some strange sexual desire for Loerke, in a low sort of way. She is undergoing another cycle of lust and searching for experience. I think that is the key. It is a new experience, the climbing of another ice world mountain. And you can see how these mountains are endless.
    Great last line and fine post. I fully agree with this idea.


    He was naturally gifted, and i don't think he spent an overwhelming amount of time cleaning up his writing, but form and structure is very carefully developed in his great works. He definitely gives form a lot of thought. Look at how carefull and perfectly WIL is structured. The same goes for his short stoies and poems.
    You know, Virgil, I read he would start a re-write of a novel from scratch. He must have had a photographic mind to recall it all. He also wrote most things at least 3 times. How did he find the time to do it all, not to mention all the letters? He was truly amazing. I feel the same; this book is so well structured and thought out. I think he had it all in his head before he even put a word down on paper. If this was the second or third rewrite he might have known just what to change and how he wanted it constructed. He had a 'basic' plan and he followed it. I can relate to this in art and in being an artist; sometimes one starts with a vision which is layed out within your mind's eye, but you know when you are into the work that you can deviate somewhat within the structure, actually that is when the subscious take over and creates the real art. This is exactly what Lawrence did. He wrote like an artist, alowing things to emerge from the basic forms subconsciously. This is his talent and his gift. It prevents the work from ever being static. It flows and it weaves and it layers and it is 'art' and it's 'free', but never aimless.


    I tend to disagree, janine. I think they are very similar, both searching for a new intense experience, this lover or that lover, and both can never be satisfied.
    After I wrote this, I felt it was not correct or completely accurate. I agree that they were much alike. Too alike can oft times be bad and repelling, not attracting. There relationship was merely of the distructive type. It consumed itself, or imploded upon itself. They canceled each other out in the end.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  12. #237
    malkavian manolia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janine View Post
    Thanks, always happy to be at your service! Comes from years of watching those witty films........or was it from reading Owen Meany?
    Is Owen Meany funny ?..i intend to read it someday


    Quote Originally Posted by Janine View Post
    This is more than true indeed, although a brief biography is beneficial in understanding Lawrence. Since "Sons and Lovers" is basically autobiographical, although fiction, I usually prescribe that as a good direction to begin with to learn about his early years, formative years. Now that you can see L's beliefs taking form, having read WIL, it is great to go back and see how they originated in this book. His later works and his very first early novels, such as "The White Peacock" and "The Trespasser" also I would recomment only for those well read in Lawrence, who simply want to investigate his beginnings and early work.
    Hmmmm.."Sons and lovers" is biographical? I have a copy of this book and i want to read it someday..geez there are so many books i want to read!


    Quote Originally Posted by Janine View Post
    I agree with most of your post and it is well stated. When we get to the political part I am not that versed on the terms and the labels. I don't know if L was actually friendly towards fascism. I think he was against capitalism and he wanted a new order to things, a new idea. I am doubtful fascism would fit the bill. Probably Virgil knows a lot more about this than I do. I can't hardly think of another book that deals with this type political subject matter. I can only think of "Kangaroo", which I did not read, but I saw the BBC film version -very good. It also dealt with the workers and unions and an eminent overthrow of authority, and it is based on some bit of truth. Interesting film and I will read the book soon, out of sheer curiostiy. But there again that represents only a brief time in L's life. He was very changable throughout his life and I am not too sure he had such a definite vision of what exactly he did believe in the final analysis. I will let you know after reading "Apogalypse". As far as the political terms I need to do more research on those, which would certainly be beneficial to me anyway. I am not too political minded, I admit.
    Janine i am not that sure about my interpretation of the chapter either..it just gave me these feelings (according to what i know concerning the historical events of the era in question). But the constant mention of industrialism in this book and the machines and men who are paralleled to machines (can't find quotes right now) brought those thoughts to my mind.

    Nice posts everyone!
    Through the darkness of future past
    the magician longs to see
    one chance out between two worlds
    'Fire walk with me.'


    Twin Peaks

  13. #238
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manolia View Post
    Is Owen Meany funny ?..i intend to read it someday
    manolia, yes, we just discussed Owen Meany. He is humorous at times and quirky, but basically the book is a serious one. If you ask Virgil he might tell you not to waste your time, or ask him for yourself; although both of us keep popping back into that thread to discuss it further with Scher, who just finished reading it about a week ago. I am not sure if I would read another Irving book. If you think Birkin is bad preaching, you will hate Johnny, who is probably the 'mouthpiece' for Irving; sometimes he rambles on forever about his political/religious views....ho hum....it does get tiresome....what can I say....also the book if mega long....Irving does not believe contemporary authors should write short books. I was planning on other books by him; in fact I picked a few up 'free' from my library's 'give-away-shelf'....I like his style of writing and there is wit to it and I may like those books better....so we will see.....I also have a ton of books, remember, to get to before I am senile.
    Hmmmm.."Sons and lovers" is biographical? I have a copy of this book and i want to read it someday..geez there are so many books i want to read!
    Yes, "Sons and Lovers" is basically Lawrence's story depicting his youth and 'coming of age' and his family background. It is not 100% truth, but basically it is, with the names changed. It is marvelous book and written when L was younger. Oddly enough I could not read it when I was younger and then later I picked it up and loved it a few years ago.
    Pensive and I have been discussing it (slowly) on it's own thread - "Sons and Lovers". You can find some background information there in the beginnings of the posting. If you read too far along you will spoil the book for yourself. I think you will like it very much.


    Janine i am not that sure about my interpretation of the chapter either..it just gave me these feelings (according to what i know concerning the historical events of the era in question). But the constant mention of industrialism in this book and the machines and men who are paralleled to machines (can't find quotes right now) brought those thoughts to my mind.

    Nice posts everyone!
    manolia, thanks for admitting this, but I think you probably layed it out pretty accurately. Your observations seem to be correct as far as what I do know. I admit when it comes to political topics, I am not that well read. I don't really know the terminology or the theories behind; My knowledge and concept is somewhat vague. I will go to Wikipedia or other sources and read about facism and Maxism, etc. and then I can get a clearer sense of what we have been talking about, hopefully.

    I found this online one day and I thought I would share it with all of you. I just found it in my file while looking for something else, isn't that always the way? Here goes. I think it explains something more about L.

    T. H. McCabe (essay date summer 1987)
    SOURCE: McCabe, T. H. “The Otherness of D. H. Lawrence's ‘Odour of Chrysanthemums’.” The D. H. Lawrence Review 19, no. 2 (summer 1987): 149-56.
    [In the following essay, McCabe traces the concept of Otherness in Lawrence's work, finding *“Odour of Chrysanthemums” to be the earliest examination of the issue.]
    “The central law of all organic life is that each organism is intrinsically isolate and single in itself” (Studies in Classic American Literature 66). This is a basic Lawrencean idea: all living things are essentially strangers, outsiders, other. “Otherness” for Lawrence means the self's perception of that life beyond the self and inside all other living things. We can never know the exact sensation of life in another the way we know it in ourselves. But we assume that others feel life just as we do and that our idea or image of them is actually the way they feel their own...
    I thought it was a very interesting thought and way to describe his 'otherness' which Birkin speaks of. I particularly like the last line. I think it trails off since I did not belong to the site and you would have to pay to hear the entire essay. I think it valuable and one gets the general idea anyway.

    *short story by L.
    Last edited by Janine; 07-02-2007 at 09:28 PM.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  14. #239
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Sorry to post right after my other post, but I am posting some more of the commentary by Worthen from my book Introduction:

    Perhaps it would be useful to try to establish a wavelength by looking at a chapter. The book's structure seems to work by isolating two or three characters, often in the presence of some catalyst that brings out their inner being, and then every so often collecting a whole party together, so that we are led to compare and contrast more widely and see what is happening as a dimension of society. So chapter XIV, 'Water-Party', refocuses what has gone before and prepares for what is to come. What we see is a society apparently at peace and at play. Since this is class-ridden England, there are signs of social tension: the Crich estate may be thrown 'open' for the day, but there is none the less a policeman at their gate, so not everyone can come in. Will Brangwen, not a gentleman, is ill at ease. His daughters, though they too have entrees as teacher and artist, show different kinds of defence and aggression about their situations as women - as has grown ever clearer since the opening scene. Hermione the aristocrat feels free simply to inspect other people. Birkin the more diplomatic school inspector is never quite right, socially. Gudrun both despises 'the crowd', and remembers with horror her boat trip up the Thames, with fat bourgeois men throwing coins for ragged urchins to scrabble over in the appalling mud. So tensions in the body politic are registered, yet may seem containable within the festivity over which Gerald Crich presides. It is a scene, so far, whose art Jane Austen, George Eliot or Henry James might have recognized. Just at one or two points they would have been taken aback, however: the conflict between what the clothes of the two sisters 'say' and the involuntary expressions on their faces and how they move, which suggest conditions of their 'being'; or the way that Gudrun with Gerald (for all her sophistication) both becomes child-like and seems to make 'the blood stir in his veins, the subtle way she turned to him and infused her gratitude into his body' (163:12-14, my italics). There the new subterranean language is at work, showing how being impacts on being sexually, without touch and below conscious awareness, in a mode of seductive female submission to male power - apparently.

    Having been trusted with a canoe, the sisters escape into a private world where they can be themselves, naked and free (as Gudrun complained in chapter IV, 'Diver', women couldn't be). When Ursula begins to sing, the differences which have been emerging since the beginning become suddenly clearer: Ursula for all her uncertainty lives 'at the centre of her own universe' (165:28-(), while Gudrun always has to demand that the other be aware of her. As Gudrun begins to dance, she un-inhibits and reveals her inner self in an unconsciously suggestive exposure: her urge first to free herself from repression, then to express herself, and then unmistakably (with the arrival of the highland bulls) to define and assert herself against the other, the male. Behind her apparent submission to the attractively, dominating male lies a strongly reactive female counter-aggression. Previous hints gather into revelation: her first fascination with Gerald (' "His totem is the wolf'" - 14:40); the taking to herself of his forcible mastery of the delicate mare (113:29¬36); but also her ambivalent high gull-scream "'I should think you're proud'" (112:35); the impulse to be childlike and suppliant, but the sense now that this is also a mode of power, and can swiftly turn into aggression. When Gerald substitutes himself for the bulls, the hidden violence in this pattern of submission/aggression spurts out in spite of herself, in an instantaneous blow across his face, and the prophetic dialogue that shows them both shocked into sudden awareness of their sex-relation as a kind of war. '''Why are you behaving in this impossible and ridiculous fashion'" is the reaction of her conscious mind (171:11-12) - but the Gudrunness of Gudrun has unmistakably come out on a deeper level, as has the question of whether the man or the woman will ultimately prove the stronger.

    - Yet 'love' as sex-war, in terms of domination or submission, defeat or victory, is not the only possibility open to Gerald and Gudrun. As they set out on the lake together in the frail canoe, the mode of their love suddenly becomes quite different. There is space between them - and with that they seem able both to be themselves, balancing each other, and to see a magical beauty in the other without wanting to possess or to dominate. Gudrun may feel -at first that she has Gerald at her mercy, but she is soon overcome by the beauty and mystery of his otherness, his maleness now a wonder not a threat. And he, who always keeps so tight a grip on himself, begins for the first time to let go, to become 'lapsed out' (I78:II) into his surroundings, not trying to control or impose himself on them. Now there is extraordinary new peace, and beauty. For this couple there are two quite different ways of being 'in love'. Which way will they go?

    Meanwhile Birkin has danced his sardonic dance, which Ursula doesn't like because it combines self-abandon, which attracts her, with mockery suggesting distance. (The novel is structuring itself also by constant parallels and comparisons.) Later he preaches a sermon, drawn directly from 'The Crown'. We think of life as a creative process; but there are times such as now, when the cycle of creation seems to have come to an end and everything is given over to a death process, a dark river of corruption. Birkin feels that it is fin de siecle, and they are all fleurs du mal (flowers of dissolution). But though Birkin voices ideas that were Lawrence's, he is only part of 'D. H. Lawrence' now. For Ursula argues. She will have none of his acceptance of deathliness (however necessary before new creation can come about). She isn't a flower of dissolution, but feels herself a rose, warm and flamy with life. She detects a death-wish in him, a sickness, which she must fight. Sermon is taken up into drama. Do we take sides?

    It is time to light the lanterns, and see deeper. They are rose and primrose, or blue; they suggest a life above the surface and below, a cool, dark. vitality and a warmer, flamier life. The greatest beauty appears when they set each other off, in contrast and balance. Yet Gudrun is afraid of the underworld of the cuttlefish and makes Ursula take that lantern. We shall see that white writhing sea-creature again; but the question now is what might be involved in rejecting it. Was Blake right, for instance, that everything that lives is holy, all energy eternal delight? Or are there subhuman modes of being that should be rejected and denied?

    They set out on the lake, these two pairs 'in love', with the lanterns adding beauty to the night, the lights reflected in the dark water. But people are subject to their world. The magic is broken by an 'accident', which results in the drowning of Gerald's sister Diana and of the young doctor who dives to save her. But was it accident? Twice already the question has arisen of whether things do happen accidentally, or because of secret impulse: Gerald as a child shooting his brother (26:10) and Birkin drinking his champagne at the wedding 'accidentally on purpose' (30:34). Diana's voice was heard at the wedding, too, the voice of the rebel (27:31-2). Why was she dancing on the roof of the boat? Was it the stimulus of disobedience, the excitement of danger, the frisson of risking death? Something potentially dangerous, certainly - linking her with Gudrun, and with Gerald who becomes a diver now in a much darker mode than the glad naked freedom of the earlier chapter (see chapter IV, 'Diver'). Below the surface lies a whole dark, cold, deathly world which seems bigger and more real to Gerald than the one up above; and he is dangerously drawn to it. There might be two kinds of 'lapsing out', one suddenly sees: into unity with a living universe, or into nothingness in death-wish, in desire not to be. Birkin now sees this in his friend, and struggles against it as Ursula had struggled against nihilism in him. The pairs are not only 'in love' - whether in tender or aggressive ways - they are also poised at crossroads between modes of deathliness and possibilities of new life.
    Last edited by Janine; 07-02-2007 at 10:25 PM.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  15. #240
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Hello, Hello.....am I all alone over here ---- how fickle you guys are ---- everyone has run off to other books! If anyone has read my last two posts (before this one) please nod. Really trying to get this thread back on page one so we don't forget it altogether.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

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