June / Lawrence Reading: 'Women in Love'

[Janine]

I kind of feel like I am pointing out the obvious with having said something about the characters' contradictions. I know they all do it, but I guess I pay more attention to Birkin doing so.

Grace, first off - never feel silly about posting and giving your own ideas. I think it is commendable on your part and helpful to all to point out various things you have observed, even from other books to compare the styles. It is not that obvious that all the characters change throughout the novel. Isn't that like real life? People do change everyday of their life; it may be subtle but one always grows and changes with new experiences and new contacts in life. I think that Lawrence was showing this. I did not mean he was vague and just floundering around aimlessly with his characters. He gave them purpose and had that purpose develop and change or modify by the end of the novel. All the character remain who they originally were. In other words their true self emerge and lead them whatever way they are to go. Much depends on their subconscious and the bringing out of certain behaviors and characteristics.

I am not quite used to the fact of the characters contradicting themselves. In other novels, those types of contradictions were usually errors on the behalf of the author (I am thinking of Sancho's mule in Don Quixote for example), or the authors use their characters as a sort of back drop or platform to present their ideas/theories...coming to mind is Raskolnikov from Crime and Punishment.

I think the contradicting of themselves is much like real life and real people. Lawrence writes quite uniquely and not at all like the authors you describe. He wrote reviews on D's "Crime and Punishment" is mentioned D in his essays. I have only read snatches of these and I know he was critical of the Russian authors, but I can't say specifically why without further research. I think he opposed their old world conventional ideas on morality and religion, but I cannot swear to this. I promised my friend, Downing, to research this aspect, since she read "Crime and Punishment" recently. By doing so I can probably understand why L's characters differ so much from D's. I never thought his writing to be compared to Don Quoixte. For one thing, at what time were both these authors writing? Wasn't it much earlier than Lawrence's time and literature?

At first, Birkin's character actually reminded me of Raskolnikov, until I realized that even though Raskolnikov strayed from his theory, the theory he had was still intact-he suffered from his incapability of putting his theory into proper action, whereas Birkin cannot keep his thoughts concrete.

Again, the authors most likely have differing ideas on the consistency factor with their characters. I think if you look at Thomas Hardy characters you will see changes from the beginning of his novels to the end and also many of the characters start out believing one thing and end up changing that belief or modifying it. I think of Angel Clare in "Tess of the D'Orbervilles". His philosophy on life is somewhat vague and Tess tends to be as Ursula, confused somewhat by just what Angel is saying or believes in. He also condradicts himself, all in the same scene, which totally impacts the entire fate of the story from that point on. You may not have read Tess or any Hardy work. Lawrence also wrote a long essay on Hardy - very interesting document.

But I am not trying to be redundant, it is just so obvious to me the differences between Lawrence and other, perhaps older authors... I will stop the redundancy now.

No problem; you are not being redundant at all. You are meerly getting your point across. I think it is helpful to compare the styles and the concepts of the various authors. I know that Lawrence himself did this in reviewing some of the authors you and I mentioned in this post.

I hope someone here has read Crime and Punishment, or I will feel kind of silly saying all that up there!

Actually, I think it quite relevant that you mentioned it since Lawrence had disgussed him in his essay writings. From his work he must have extracted some bits of knowledge and learned by his reading, as all of us do. Yes, I do think these authors were much earlier than Lawrence and therefore the backgrounds of their worlds were different than Lawrence's world of the 20th century. These were different centuries; therefore making a distinct difference between their styles and their writing. If you read the 'Introduction' I posted you can see that during the writing of WIL, there was the background of the war; a terrible upheaval throughout Europe. I am sure this affected the consistency of the characters and the novel. But to me this ebb and flow seems natural and right for the very realistic qualities of the characters. It minmics the ebb and flow of seasons and of nature.

[manolia]

Is Lawerence purposely making the outfits the women wear sound horribly bad or is it because he's a guy and doesn't know any better? Some of the colors he describe generally look horrible together. ie. yellow dress, pink stocking, and red shoes? Did they get dressed in the dark. Was that the style then? At first I thought it was just the brangwens but the hermoine popped up in something just as bad. Seems strange as he describes all of then being fastideous about their dress.

My sides are hurting

I agree with Virgil and Janine. But also from what i have gathered from movies fashionable ladies in the 20's were a bit excessive.

EDIT

Lawrence could be a 'strange bird' - his wife, Frieda, actually said that about him in a direct quote.

He was a fetishist?? The more i learn about his life the more i am interested! He was quite an extraordinary person.

[Janine]

My sides are hurting

I agree with Virgil and Janine. But also from what i have gathered from movies fashionable ladies in the 20's were a bit excessive.

manolia, you really crack me up! there is those movies again....hahaha..... yes and in my film version of WIL the clothes are quite interesting actually, even the colored stockings....I don't think they look like the got 'dressed in the dark', but I do think your paragraph. Papayahed. is quite humorously written. I got a good laugh reading it, as well. Good to add some humor to this very serious intense discussion. Comic relief is what we have needed! Thanks!

He was a fetishist?? The more i learn about his life the more i am interested! He was quite an extraordinary person.

Don't know about the fetishist? What do you mean by that? The stocking thingie? He did certainly have his odd quirps. Most definitely - Lawrence was an extraordinary person. I just read his three travel books and it gave one a very intimate look into Lawrence as a man and person with such astute sensitivity and zest for life. I loved reading those book; they surprised me. The letters also are great - another intimate window into his real personality and being.

Hey, manolia - are you going to be participating in the short story thread this month. It is started with Downing, Pensive, Grace and me...check it out.

[Virgil]

So let's finally look at the ice world symbolism. Some of this is me just thinking out loud because I have not come to any definite conclusion.

Here's a section in Chapter 29 that seems to address it.

She [Ursula] was dilated and brilliant, like a flower in the morning sun. She felt Birkin looking at her, as if he were jealous of her, and her breasts thrilled, her veins were all golden. She was as happy as the sun that has just opened above clouds. And everybody seemed so admiring and radiant, it was perfect.

After dinner she wanted to go out for a minute, to look at the world. The company tried to dissuade her -- it was so terribly cold. But just to look, she said.

They all four wrapped up warmly, and found themselves in a vague, unsubstantial outdoors of dim snow and ghosts of an upper-world, that made strange shadows before the stars. It was indeed cold, bruisingly, frighteningly, unnaturally cold. Ursula could not believe the air in her nostrils. It seemed conscious, malevolent, purposive in its intense murderous coldness.

Yet it was wonderful, an intoxication, a silence of dim, unrealised snow, of the invisible intervening between her and the visible, between her and the flashing stars. She could see Orion sloping up. How wonderful he was, wonderful enough to make one cry aloud.

And all around was this cradle of snow, and there was firm snow underfoot, that struck with heavy cold through her boot-soles. It was night, and silence. She imagined she could hear the stars. She imagined distinctly she could hear the celestial, musical motion of the stars, quite near at hand. She seemed like a bird flying amongst their harmonious motion.

And she clung close to Birkin. Suddenly she realised she did not know what he was thinking. She did not know where he was ranging.

Like a flower in the sun, that is Lawrence's perfect state, suggesting of nirvana, if you will. Then notice this paragraph:

And they turned home again. They saw the golden lights of the hotel glowing out in the night of snow-silence, small in the hollow, like a cluster of yellow berries. It seemed like a bunch of sun-sparks, tiny and orange in the midst of the snow-darkness. Behind, was a high shadow of a peak, blotting out the stars, like a ghost.

What is interesting here is that ice world is placed in direct opposition to the star symbolism, the snow peak blotting out the stars. We know that the star symbolism is associated with Ursula and Birkin's relationship, and so we understand the the snow/ice symbolism is associated with Gudrun and Gerald. But is it diametrically opposite? How would stars be diametrically opposite snow and ice? Heat? Source of energy? Lawrence is big on the sun as a symbol for positive things. Lawrence loves to use the metaphor of people melting. Ice would be the opposite, the crystalization, and Lawrence loves that metaphor as well. People are hard, crystal, and then melt from the sun or something. Ursual is now out of that perfect "flower" state. Is it because of the cold? The section continues:

They drew near to their home. They saw a man come from the dark building, with a lighted lantern which swung golden, and made that his dark feet walked in a halo of snow. He was a small, dark figure in the darkened snow. He unlatched the door of an outhouse. A smell of cows, hot, animal, almost like beef, came out on the heavily cold air. There was a glimpse of two cattle in their dark stalls, then the door was shut again, and not a chink of light showed. It had reminded Ursula again of home, of the Marsh, of her childhood, and of the journey to Brussels, and, strangely, of Anton Skrebensky.

Oh, God, could one bear it, this past which was gone down the abyss? Could she bear, that it ever had been! She looked round this silent, upper world of snow and stars and powerful cold. There was another world, like views on a magic lantern; The Marsh, Cossethay, Ilkeston, lit up with a common, unreal light. There was a shadowy unreal Ursula, a whole shadow-play of an unreal life. It was as unreal, and circumscribed, as a magic-lantern show. She wished the slides could all be broken. She wished it could be gone for ever, like a lantern-slide which was broken. She wanted to have no past. She wanted to have come down from the slopes of heaven to this place, with Birkin, not to have toiled out of the murk of her childhood and her upbringing, slowly, all soiled. She felt that memory was a dirty trick played upon her. What was this decree, that she should `remember'! Why not a bath of pure oblivion, a new birth, without any recollections or blemish of a past life. She was with Birkin, she had just come into life, here in the high snow, against the stars. What had she to do with parents and antecedents? She knew herself new and unbegotten, she had no father, no mother, no anterior connections, she was herself, pure and silvery, she belonged only to the oneness with Birkin, a oneness that struck deeper notes, sounding into the heart of the universe, the heart of reality, where she had never existed before.

"Views of a magic lantern" is I think how movie pictures were referred to back then. So Ursula is getting flashback pictures of her prior life. Why is this a bad thing? Because I think it fragments Birkin out. They are no longer those two stars that have formed a constellation. The cold drives the person to his inner core self. The passage continues further:

Even Gudrun was a separate unit, separate, separate, having nothing to do with this self, this Ursula, in her new world of reality. That old shadow- world, the actuality of the past -- ah, let it go! She rose free on the wings of her new condition.

Gudrun and Gerald had not come in. They had walked up the valley straight in front of the house, not like Ursula and Birkin, on to the little hill at the right. Gudrun was driven by a strange desire. She wanted to plunge on and on, till she came to the end of the valley of snow. Then she wanted to climb the wall of white finality, climb over, into the peaks that sprang up like sharp petals in the heart of the frozen, mysterious navel of the world. She felt that there, over the strange blind, terrible wall of rocky snow, there in the navel of the mystic world, among the final cluster of peaks, there, in the infolded navel of it all, was her consummation. If she could but come there, alone, and pass into the infolded navel of eternal snow and of uprising, immortal peaks of snow and rock, she would be a oneness with all, she would be herself the eternal, infinite silence, the sleeping, timeless, frozen centre of the All.

Gudrun wants to experince the cold, learn it, gather its knowledge. But the cold she thinks is the "navel of the mystic world" the end of experience, the eternal infinite. She too wants the state of nirvana, but she thinks she can find it in the ice world. And then much later in the chapter, Gudrun and Gerald go tobagganing.

For Gudrun herself, she seemed to pass altogether into the whiteness of the snow, she became a pure, thoughtless crystal. When she reached the top of the slope, in the wind, she looked round, and saw peak beyond peak of rock and snow, bluish, transcendent in heaven. And it seemed to her like a garden, with the peaks for pure flowers, and her heart gathering them. She had no separate consciousness for Gerald.

She held on to him as they went sheering down over the keen slope. She felt as if her senses were being whetted on some fine grindstone, that was keen as flame. The snow sprinted on either side, like sparks from a blade that is being sharpened, the whiteness round about ran swifter, swifter, in pure flame the white slope flew against her, and she fused like one molten, dancing globule, rushed through a white intensity. Then there was a great swerve at the bottom, when they swung as it were in a fall to earth, in the diminishing motion.

They came to rest. But when she rose to her feet, she could not stand. She gave a strange cry, turned and clung to him, sinking her face on his breast, fainting in him. Utter oblivion came over her, as she lay for a few moments abandoned against him.

`What is it?' he was saying. `Was it too much for you?'

But she heard nothing.

When she came to, she stood up and looked round, astonished. Her face was white, her eyes brilliant and large.

`What is it?' he repeated. `Did it upset you?'

She looked at him with her brilliant eyes that seemed to have undergone some transfiguration, and she laughed, with a terrible merriment.

`No,' she cried, with triumphant joy. `It was the complete moment of my life.'

To Gudrun the snow is completeness but it is an illusion. She climbs to the peak thinking she has reached the navel of the world, but she sees there are peaks upon peaks beyond. It is not the end, and she will have to go through cycles of climbing, cycles of redoing the same mechanical thing, and ultimately there is no end to the ice world. It is another eternal cycle. Later still Urusla decides she must leave.

Ursula went out alone into the world of pure, new snow. But the dazzling whiteness seemed to beat upon her till it hurt her, she felt the cold was slowly strangling her soul. Her head felt dazed and numb.

Suddenly she wanted to go away. It occurred to her, like a miracle, that she might go away into another world. She had felt so doomed up here in the eternal snow, as if there were no beyond.

And

`I hate it,' she said. `I hate the snow, and the unnaturalness of it, the unnatural light it throws on everybody, the ghastly glamour, the unnatural feelings it makes everybody have.'

And then she tells her feeling about the snow and her urgency to leave to her sister:

But Gudrun read the unconscious brightness on her sister's face, rather than the uncertain tones of her speech.

`But don't you think you'll want the old connection with the world -- father and the rest of us, and all that it means, England and the world of thought -- don't you think you'll need that, really to make a world?'

Ursula was silent, trying to imagine.

`I think,' she said at length, involuntarily, `that Rupert is right -- one wants a new space to be in, and one falls away from the old.'

Gudrun watched her sister with impassive face and steady eyes.

`One wants a new space to be in, I quite agree,' she said. `But I think that a new world is a development from this world, and that to isolate oneself with one other person, isn't to find a new world at all, but only to secure oneself in one's illusions.'

Ursula looked out of the window. In her soul she began to wrestle, and she was frightened. She was always frightened of words, because she knew that mere word-force could always make her believe what she did not believe.

`Perhaps,' she said, full of mistrust, of herself and everybody. `But,' she added, `I do think that one can't have anything new whilst one cares for the old -- do you know what I mean? -- even fighting the old is belonging to it. I know, one is tempted to stop with the world, just to fight it. But then it isn't worth it.'

So what can we make of all this. The ice world separates the self and drives each to its indivudual core. To reach nirvana one has to eliminate this idividual self, melt that crystalized self to a new static being. The cold is another endless cycle, an illusion of finality, like the will is an illusion of self.

I don't know if I made any sense. There is some good thoughts there but overall just babbling I think. Perhaps I confused myself and everyone.

[Janine]

Virgil, what you babbled makes perfect sense to me. I will comment on it further, later on, but you seem to have covered much of the symbolism of the snow. Did you finish the book? Good job on your post!

[Virgil]

Virgil, what you babbled makes perfect sense to me. I will comment on it further, later on, but you seem to have covered much of the symbolism of the snow. Did you finish the book? Good job on your post!

Thanks Janine. No I've got about 25 pages left. Hopefully tonight.

[manolia]

Don't know about the fetishist? What do you mean by that? The stocking thingie? He did certainly have his odd quirps.

Yes i mean the stocking thingie

Hey, manolia - are you going to be participating in the short story thread this month. It is started with Downing, Pensive, Grace and me...check it out.

I don't know yet Janine. I am reading "The name of the rose", as i have already told you and i can't put it down...very interesting book...i am actually reading it in a great speed..i don't recognise myself

Like a flower in the sun, that is Lawrence's perfect state, suggesting of nirvana, if you will.

Yes it looks like a nirvana state

What is interesting here is that ice world is placed in direct opposition to the star symbolism, the snow peak blotting out the stars. We know that the star symbolism is associated with Ursula and Birkin's relationship, and so we understand the the snow/ice symbolism is associated with Gudrun and Gerald. But is it diametrically opposite? How would stars be diametrically opposite snow and ice? Heat? Source of energy? Lawrence is big on the sun as a symbol for positive things. Lawrence loves to use the metaphor of people melting. Ice would be the opposite, the crystalization, and Lawrence loves that metaphor as well. People are hard, crystal, and then melt from the sun or something. Ursual is now out of that perfect "flower" state. Is it because of the cold?

(....)

So what can we make of all this. The ice world separates the self and drives each to its indivudual core. To reach nirvana one has to eliminate this idividual self, melt that crystalized self to a new static being. The cold is another endless cycle, an illusion of finality, like the will is an illusion of self.

Excelent explanation Virgil. It makes sense
But how about the war?? You mentioned something in a previous post about the war and the happy and energetic germans with their dancing. It is a great contrast to the nirvana state of the ice world. How does this fit in?

[Janine]

Yes i mean the stocking thingie

He may have had a few other odd fetishes, as well - not just the stocking thingie. I was reading a very interesting book introduction last night to Lawrence's last posthumeously published book "Apocalyse". It is a letter to Frieda, his wife, from Richard Aldington, and he keeps stressing the point of what a truly nice and sweet person Lawrence was. He points out his faults and others that were most unfairly fabricated by his enemies, but Aldington's genuine love and respect of the man came through strongly.

I don't know yet Janine. I am reading "The name of the rose", as i have already told you and i can't put it down...very interesting book...i am actually reading it in a great speed..i don't recognise myself

Manolia, How funny - you are joining the fast readers group now. I am still back in the slowpoke readers club, but so funny, I think I was the first one to finish up WIL or was it you? "The Name of the Rose" must be a good book if you can't put it down. Well, if you can fit in the short story I hope you do come on the thread, at least once in awhile; we need you there with your great posts. To tell you the truth, last few days, I have been totally 'burned out' myself. I think I need a short break.

Yes it looks like a nirvana state

Yes, Virgil, Interesting idea about nirvana state. I know that L was fascinated with the 'sun' in the travel books. He also contrasted the cold snowy mountains and great glistening peaks rising up into the clouds. I distinctly recall thinking about the last scenes in WIL when reading it recently. I will have to look up some of the references in the books - some of the passages are wonderfully written and expressed.

Excelent explanation, Virgil. It makes sense
But how about the war?? You mentioned something in a previous post about the war and the happy and energetic germans with their dancing. It is a great contrast to the nirvana state of the ice world. How does this fit in?

Yes, on the explanation, V, I second that! Yes, interesting thought - can we talk about that contrast. You are good at siting contrasts, Virgil, so what do you think? Surely it is warmer and more friendly inside the lodge than outside. They are such distinct separate worlds the way they are depicted in the book.

[Virgil]

I don't know yet Janine. I am reading "The name of the rose", as i have already told you and i can't put it down...very interesting book...i am actually reading it in a great speed..i don't recognise myself

That is a great read. I loved that novel.

Excelent explanation Virgil. It makes sense
But how about the war?? You mentioned something in a previous post about the war and the happy and energetic germans with their dancing. It is a great contrast to the nirvana state of the ice world. How does this fit in?

Thank you. I'm even less sure on the war. The only thing I can suggest is that the conflict between Gerald and Loerke is symbolic for the apocalyptic catastrophy between England and Germany. Even the ice world is suggestive of the desolation of trench warfare that occurred during WWI. The happy scenes are just a realistic portrayal a gathering at such a hotel.

Yes, Virgil, Interesting idea about nirvana state. I know that L was fascinated with the 'sun' in the travel books. He also contrasted the cold snowy mountains and great glistening peaks rising up into the clouds. I distinctly recall thinking about the last scenes in WIL when reading it recently. I will have to look up some of the references in the books - some of the passages are wonderfully written and expressed.

Something else occurred to me. Remember in chapter 8 after Hermione clobbers Birkin on the head and Birkin takes off for the woods. Here:

Yet he wanted something. He was happy in the wet hillside, that was overgrown and obscure with bushes and flowers. He wanted to touch them all, to saturate himself with the touch of them all. He took off his clothes, and sat down naked among the primroses, moving his feet softly among the primroses, his legs, his knees, his arms right up to the arm-pits, lying down and letting them touch his belly, his breasts. It was such a fine, cool, subtle touch all over him, he seemed to saturate himself with their contact.

But they were too soft. He went through the long grass to a clump of young fir-trees, that were no higher than a man. The soft sharp boughs beat upon him, as he moved in keen pangs against them, threw little cold showers of drops on his belly, and beat his loins with their clusters of soft-sharp needles. There was a thistle which pricked him vividly, but not too much, because all his movements were too discriminate and soft. To lie down and roll in the sticky, cool young hyacinths, to lie on one's belly and cover one's back with handfuls of fine wet grass, soft as a breath, soft and more delicate and more beautiful than the touch of any woman; and then to sting one's thigh against the living dark bristles of the fir-boughs; and then to feel the light whip of the hazel on one's shoulders, stinging, and then to clasp the silvery birch-trunk against one's breast, its smoothness, its hardness, its vital knots and ridges -- this was good, this was all very good, very satisfying. Nothing else would do, nothing else would satisfy, except this coolness and subtlety of vegetation travelling into one's blood. How fortunate he was, that there was this lovely, subtle, responsive vegetation, waiting for him, as he waited for it; how fulfilled he was, how happy!

This is the complete opposite of the ice world. Vegetation does not grow in the ice world, at least most kinds. I'm not sure i copied it into this quote above, but he takes his clothes off and becomes one with nature, a nirvanic type of state. But his is real nirvana. This is an end, not a completion of a cycle that will continue on.

Yes, on the explanation, V, I second that! Yes, interesting thought - can we talk about that contrast. You are good at siting contrasts, Virgil, so what do you think? Surely it is warmer and more friendly inside the lodge than outside. They are such distinct separate worlds the way they are depicted in the book.

Thanks Janine. Hey I finished last night!! I will have to say something about the climax and that great chapter "Snowed Up."

[caspian]

Reading lawrence is like climbing up a mountain.it's crazy,difficult and exciting. I see him a little awkward, almost hate his endless philosophy, his charachters are not lovable, the aura of his story is heavy, ....but he's excellent. I'm still a little far from last chapter, so there's no complete opinion on the book yet.So far I like him, i usually don't try to read or understand complicated "writers". (I think bad experience with hesse at 6th grade is the reason.that was too soon for hesse.) but it worked with lawrence. I'm interested in him so much.His biography alone is so interesting. I'm looking forward to read his other works. i hardly find time for reading, though i had a lot to ask or share with u I couldn't make it, but i did my best follow the forum, almost read everything. that was really interesting and helpful.
i've to stay this month with lawrence, finish WIL , then start reading Irving which I couldn't make last month.I hope u've nice Irving forum here too.I'm gonna need it.
I loved "industrial magnat" most

[Janine]

Reading lawrence is like climbing up a mountain.it's crazy,difficult and exciting. I see him a little awkward, almost hate his endless philosophy, his charachters are not lovable, the aura of his story is heavy, ....but he's excellent. I'm still a little far from last chapter, so there's no complete opinion on the book yet.So far I like him, i usually don't try to read or understand complicated "writers". (I think bad experience with hesse at 6th grade is the reason.that was too soon for hesse.) but it worked with lawrence. I'm interested in him so much.His biography alone is so interesting. I'm looking forward to read his other works. i hardly find time for reading, though i had a lot to ask or share with u I couldn't make it, but i did my best follow the forum, almost read everything. that was really interesting and helpful.
i've to stay this month with lawrence, finish WIL , then start reading Irving which I couldn't make last month.I hope u've nice Irving forum here too.I'm gonna need it.
I loved "industrial magnat" most

Hi Caspian, I am so happy to hear that you persisted and 'climbed the mountain' staying with this book. Wonderful that you have been reading all our posts as you go along. It is so good to know that they were interesting to you and helpful, as well. It certainly has been an intense study and 'heavy' month of reading; by our extensive disgussions we have all learned much. The 'Industrial Magnate' was a great chapter.
Lawrence is one of my favorite authors. There are many good biographies on the author, but also there are many more great books he wrote that are wonderful, and as I always quote 'so many book, so little time'.
I personally, think that "Women in Love' is Lawrence's masterpiece, but Virgil likes the "Rainbow" and I like almost anything I read of his. Currently we are reading his short stories and that thread is quite active. You might like his short novel "The Fox" . I really liked it when I read it years back. Basically, Virgil and I agree that we don't agree completely with Lawrence's philosophy/ideas but we admire the author and feel he was truly great. Also one cannot help having a fascination with his characters/imagery/poetic prose/ideas. His books are highly complex and therefore I think the questions they evoke make the books very appealing.

Yes, the Irving discussion went well and there is much information in that thread.

Enjoy your reading!

Thank you. I'm even less sure on the war. The only thing I can suggest is that the conflict between Gerald and Loerke is symbolic for the apocalyptic catastrophy between England and Germany. Even the ice world is suggestive of the desolation of trench warfare that occurred during WWI. The happy scenes are just a realistic portrayal a gathering at such a hotel.

Virgil, you are welcome! Well, I think the way I have heard it spoken of is that the war is only under the surface like an atmosphere hanging over the mood of the book. It is part of what makes Birkin so bitter in the beginning and perhaps wishing to wipe out mankind altogether. Think about it - countries slaughtering each other and mayhem at the time this was being written. It had to have an effect on the mood and the story. Through the conflicts of the characters is the confusion and uncertainty of war, I believe. You idea or Gerald and Loerke as symbolic is quite interesting. I had not thought of that. And your idea of the ice world relating to desolution of the trench warfare that too is quite an interesting though. Perhaps the way in which the book ends with Gerald is also warlike if you think of it.
I feel the happy scenes are there for several reasons. They contrast nicely with the outside cold unreal unnatural feel of the start ice world. The inside is all life and gaity while the outside is all death and destruction. This too is much like war.

Something else occurred to me. Remember in chapter 8 after Hermione clobbers Birkin on the head and Birkin takes off for the woods.

This is the complete opposite of the ice world. Vegetation does not grow in the ice world, at least most kinds. I'm not sure i copied it into this quote above, but he takes his clothes off and becomes one with nature, a nirvanic type of state. But his is real nirvana. This is an end, not a completion of a cycle that will continue on.

Yes, this scene with Birkin is such a contrast to the closing scenes with Gerald, but both are linked to nature - two sides of nature do you think? Two seasons and two environments, both in opposition. I agree about the nirvanic type state. What are you referring to when you say "But his is real nirvana"? Also can you explain more precisely your last line in that paragraph. Is this a transfiguration in a sense?

Thanks Janine. Hey I finished last night!! I will have to say something about the climax and that great chapter "Snowed Up."

Wasn't the book wonderful? So glad you finished so that we can discuss the end and "Snowed Up" especially. That scene's ending is so amazing.

[grace86]

Janine I have a sweatshirt that says "so many books, so little time"

As I mentioned in my PM to you, I have not finished the novel yet. Almost finished with the longest chapter in the book, Continental.

I too have been following a long with the discussion, avoiding the spoilers of course, and I have really come to admire Lawrence.

Virgil, did you ever get the PM I sent you about the questions I have in the back of my book?

It is nice to see you in the discussion Caspian.

[Janine]

Janine I have a sweatshirt that says "so many books, so little time"

As I mentioned in my PM to you, I have not finished the novel yet. Almost finished with the longest chapter in the book, Continental.

I too have been following a long with the discussion, avoiding the spoilers of course, and I have really come to admire Lawrence.

Virgil, did you ever get the PM I sent you about the questions I have in the back of my book?

It is nice to see you in the discussion Caspian.

Grace, I will have to make this post 'short and sweet' - now you don't have a t-shirt that says that, do you? I need one that says the other expression; I say that all the time! They probably sell it at the bookstores, right? Grace, wear it with pride; you deserve it! Anyone who can attempt to read 4 books at once definitely does
I am so pleased that you come to admire Lawrence. I suppose my own enthusisam is infectious, or at least I hoped it would be, but the books speak for themselves and one can't read one without admiring the greatness within the pages. The books are unique and as someone said (believe it was manolia) like nothing they ever read before. I know because, I was hooked the first time, reading WIL. Some of the imagery in the book never left my mind and that was 30 yrs ago. That says much for an author. Also, there is a kind of distinct beauty with the natural world in this book one does not forget easily, an exquisite sensitivity and sensuality.

I have confidence you will finish up soon. I know you can do it Grace. The last part of the book is hard to resist and it is nearly impossible at one point to put it down. The book grabs you that way.

I am thrilled you are reading along with the post, as well as Caspian. I was surprised to see C return to comment. I hope others return after reading the book; there may be many invisible people still reading the book. A woman in "To The Lighthouse" thread, fairly new to the site, told me she is reading the L threads and she said some very complimentary things about the postings, which was really nice to hear.

I did find your PM; read it several times now. I was going to answer it tomorrow, when I can think clearer. Then I saw this and thought of making it brief, but already 'long-winded' me has written too much. Please forgive.
Do have fun finishing the book and I hope you can fit the short story in soon. We need discussers in the thread. It would be wonderful to see you over there!

[manolia]

He points out his faults and others that were most unfairly fabricated by his enemies,

Such as? That sounds very interesting..does he mention anything in particular?? And why did he have enemies? Were his daring books the cause which created enemies?

Manolia, How funny - you are joining the fast readers group now.

Bah! I will never be a fast reader. There is no point in doing that I am just reading faster than usual.

I am still back in the slowpoke readers club, but so funny, I think I was the first one to finish up WIL or was it you?

I don't remember. But maybe it was you. You were ahead of us all in your reading.

That is a great read. I loved that novel.

It is indeed. Have you read "Fucault's pendulum" ? I have and i liked it immensely.

Thank you. I'm even less sure on the war. The only thing I can suggest is that the conflict between Gerald and Loerke is symbolic for the apocalyptic catastrophy between England and Germany. Even the ice world is suggestive of the desolation of trench warfare that occurred during WWI.

Yes, that's sounds accurate.

The happy scenes are just a realistic portrayal a gathering at such a hotel.

You maybe right (after all we shouldn't search for a hidden meaning in everything).

Hey I finished last night!! I will have to say something about the climax and that great chapter "Snowed Up."

Hehe, i am waiting for your interpretation of the ending..you have read Janine's i presume.

Reading lawrence is like climbing up a mountain.

I liked that phrase

I loved "industrial magnat" most

Great chapter. It was my favourite till i read "Snowed Up" and "Continental"

Janine I have a sweatshirt that says "so many books, so little time"

I might need one of those With all those books i buy (i really can't help it) i keep wondering if i ever find time to read them all.

[Virgil]

Yes, this scene with Birkin is such a contrast to the closing scenes with Gerald, but both are linked to nature - two sides of nature do you think? Two seasons and two environments, both in opposition. I agree about the nirvanic type state. What are you referring to when you say "But his is real nirvana"? Also can you explain more precisely your last line in that paragraph. Is this a transfiguration in a sense?

No, I don't think that Birkin has a sort of transfiguration like we saw in The Horse Dealer's Daughter. Lawrecne resorted to that sort of transfiguration after Women In Love I think, his later fiction. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I can't recall a transfiguration like in The Horse Dealer's Daughter in anything prior to WIL.