Do Women Have Less Self-Esteem Than Men?

[Virgil]

I agree with you, but even then, there are quite a few girls who are just as cocky and exertive...but I think everyone is different. I'm more cocky and crazy and active then most of my male friends as well as female, but I think its because I'm comfortable with them. But even when I first meet people, I tend to be a little bit not cocky but with more confidence and shyness as well.

I think I would get bored if there were no guys in my classes...some of you boys out there are pretty entertaining! Girls also!

Girl Power

I hear you, but I think it's a question of numbers. More boys are hyperactive and aggressive than girls. There are some girls, I guess you , who are active, and there are some boys that inhibited. It's like height. There are some girls that are taller than boys, but in general boys are taller.

But go girl power! I'm not intimidated by girls with umph.

[apples of gold]

Even though there are many shared characteristics, we seem to agree that something in our genetic makeup makes females behave differently from boys. In Western civilizations there's a lot of pressure on women to excel in the work place and the education system has tried different things to encourage their success. Seems to be the same old problem of survival with less focus on a cozy family environment. At first I'm inclined to think Wow! haven't women adapted quite well to all this, having uteruses, taking care of children and husbands, as well as holding down demanding jobs. But with a better jobs comes money for nannies, etc, in effect removing part of the load. So have women really adapted?

The conversation between the husband and wife, along with the other problems mentioned, tell me neither sex has adapted very well to their changing roles over the last 50 years. Would it be better to stay with traditional roles?

[Brigitte]

When you say traditional I think of mothers without a say in the family, arranged marriages, one less income in the family, and younger women getting married (oh-wait! this already happens)

Do you think there will eventually be equality everywhere? I hope so. I remain hopeful for the future.

I'm addicted to the smiley. Eep!

[Pensive]

hmm interesting, this ties into, slightly, into a point brought up in another thread about the sexyness of women.

I remember in high school a study that was done about seperating boys and girls in schools. The study said that girls did better without boys around. (The study was touted in my school since it was all girls) Anywho, when hearing about the study it reminded me vivdly of grade school, I can clearly remember in one class all the boys sat in the front of the class and the girls in the back. Seating was assigned by the teacher.

At the time we didn't think about it but looking back, and I don't think is was a concsious decision on the teacthers part, the message being sent was that the boys were more important.

Little things such as that can have an impact on self esteem.

I totally agree with you here, papaya. I don't think that it's just that women have this in them or it's an attribute of them - lower self-esteem, but because of the culture/social behaviour/society/sometimes some religion/mistakes of teacher and parents, many of them get this idea that they are not as good as men.

For example I have this friend, a very studious girl she is, gets the highest marks in our class at times, but she really thinks women are weak. She thinks whatever women do they can't bring themselves equal to men. I have also seen it by my very own eyes, mothers trying to teach their girl child about the moods of men and all that. Many fields are not considered good for women. Things are generalised for women like they are weak, they are chatter-boxes, can't do anything other than that, etc... In many cultures (I think most of them), a woman is dependant on a man. In many places, even an educated woman can't fight for her own rights. What would she think of herself in such a situation? Below the opposite gender which is able to make his own decisions of course.

Oh my goodness, instead of thinking it as women's attribute, it would be better if we think it the other way: it's not a part of them. It's inflicted on many from which even some escape. I don't think that a way too much self-esteem is a good thing by the way, but there should be enough to think that your gender, race and religion doesn't put you beneath anybody else.

[papayahed]

Look I agree that women in general probably have lower self esteem than men, and I'm sure that some of it comes through experience. But I think some of it is innate as well. Boys are just more active and cocky and exertive than girls and I think this is part of how self esteem is formed. But I do sympathize with you ladies. There are interesting studies of girls who go to all girls schools where they tend to become more assertive than girls who don't. Being away from and not having to compete with hyperactive boys seems to help their self esteem.

edit: Just saw Papaya's post about separating boys and girls. She seems to agree with me.

Virgie!! We do agree!!

I've read a book about gender roles in the work place it was SO dead on. I found myself saying "Holy Carp" many times throughtout the book. A good example is that women are taught to get along and cooperte, when we were kids we girls played house or dolls - no winner no loser. Boys played guns and sports - a definate winner and loser. That translates to the business world were men are better equiped to deal with conflict at work - men will fight to get there point accross, women will compromise for the sake of peace. Neither is bad but in an all male boardroom compromise is seen as weakness.

There have been many times in my formative years were I have held back, as not raise my hand in class, not done as well as I could in school or sports so that I wouldn't do better then a boy. A lot of times it was because I wanted him to like me other times it was because I didn't want to him to feel bad. I was taught to worry about the feelings of others. A lot of my friends, if not all did the same thing. I'm sure this didn't have a positve impact on my self esteem.

This also brings up the point of sexiness, as somebody mentioned men like to be the "knight in shining armor". I will always let a man kill the bugs and lift heavy things but pretty much everything else I have under control. Should one pretend otherwise to make the guy feel needed? I also know this has had an effect on my relatioships I have many examples but a really great and totally blatant one comes to mind: I met a guy at a bar who happened to be a math major, at first we got along just fine until we had a difference of opinion - then he started talking about how all his friends that flunked out of the math program would just go to engineering. He repeated this several times to make sure I was aware that his major was "more smart" then mine. What a yashhie, we never talked again.

Now that I think about it I always date men that are older then I am, make more, and have higher positions. Coincidence?

Of course I'm speaking of myself and my experiences, as well as some of my friends this isn't a generalization.

[Brigitte]

Well, Papaya, I don't think there's anything wrong with dating older men - they just might look better to you. And... if they have higher positions, then just maybe they make lots o' money. (; So those could just be coincidences, but I definitely see your point. Correct me if I'm wrong anyone, but I think men would feel intimidated if their gf/wife made more money or had a higher position. The real kick is that most men and women play by these roles and agree to them, so we're sort of stuck in a loop. It's just like height - most men aren't willing to date a woman taller than him. Confidence issues? Heh, but also... women don't want to date shorter men (so short girls have the more to pick from hehe) because they need a MAN. *shrugs*

[BibliophileTRJ]

If a man speaks in the woods and there is no woman around to hear him... Is he still wrong?

I can clearly remember in one class all the boys sat in the front of the class and the girls in the back. Seating was assigned by the teacher.

At the time we didn't think about it but looking back, and I don't think is was a concsious decision on the teacthers part, the message being sent was that the boys were more important.

Papaya, in this instance I think it probably had more to do with the boys needing closer supervision.... not being more important. At that age, if you put the boys in the back of the class it becomes a zoo.

[plainjane]

But here is one way of knowing who has a greater self-esteem problem: how much money do women spend on beauty products, weight loss products, fashionable cloths, plastic surgery and so on? How much do men spend? In recent years there has been a push to inflect the same self-esteem problems on men so that they can spend more money on makeup and wrinkle cream. But I still thank that as a whole, women have lower self-esteem, or are at least at a greater risk of a poor self image.

I can't agree that self-adornment would be an accurate indicator of self-esteem, at least along the sexual divide. There have been periods in history that it has been socially acceptable for men to "adorn" [I use the term very loosely] themselves with make-up, jewelery and fashionable clothes.....and they did so, full tilt.
That particular indicator is more telling of the place in history we occupy.

That said, I have to think that any woman's lack of self-esteem in any time period is dependent on her personality, genetic make-up and environment and therefore practically impossible to come under any blanket statement.

[papayahed]

If a man speaks in the woods and there is no woman around to hear him... Is he still wrong?



Papaya, in this instance I think it probably had more to do with the boys needing closer supervision.... not being more important. At that age, if you put the boys in the back of the class it becomes a zoo.

There was only 24 of us it wasn't like she couln't keep control, actually this was the just most obvious example.

[Scheherazade]

If a man speaks in the woods and there is no woman around to hear him... Is he still wrong?

Men rarely need to be in women's company to be wrong... or speak, for that matter!

Papaya, in this instance I think it probably had more to do with the boys needing closer supervision.... not being more important. At that age, if you put the boys in the back of the class it becomes a zoo.

Agree.

[plainjane]

Should one pretend otherwise to make the guy feel needed?

Not IMO. So much depends on the circumstances in which we were raised. I was raised in a one-parent home, the parent being my mother, as my dad died early on. We had to do things ourselves, there was no "big strong male" to call on to do basically what we did not want to do. So I've always had the attitude I could do what I had to do.

When I see women play "the game" to get what they want, frankly I find it disheartening. And sometimes even demeaning.
But that's another thread.

[Walter]

Should women have lower self esteem than men? Absolutely not! And I can't hope for the day rapidly enough when none do.

A. Man

[BibliophileTRJ]

I think the bottom line is that men's self-esteem is just as crappy as women's; but from the earliest age men are taught to HIDE any signs of weakness. Men MAY NOT SHOW self-doubt lest they be seen as less of a man.

[papayahed]

I think the bottom line is that men's self-esteem is just as crappy as women's; but from the earliest age men are taught to HIDE any signs of weakness. Men MAY NOT SHOW self-doubt lest they be seen as less of a man.

That's true.

[motherhubbard]

I can't agree that self-adornment would be an accurate indicator of self-esteem, at least along the sexual divide. There have been periods in history that it has been socially acceptable for men to "adorn" [I use the term very loosely] themselves with make-up, jewelery and fashionable clothes.....and they did so, full tilt.
That particular indicator is more telling of the place in history we occupy.

That said, I have to think that any woman's lack of self-esteem in any time period is dependent on her personality, genetic make-up and environment and therefore practically impossible to come under any blanket statement.

I don’t think that adornment necessarily equals low self esteem, in fact it could mean the opposite. I do think that many men can lean way back to button their pants under their enormous pregnant looking bellies and then look at the sexy devil in the mirror. Where as even skinny women think they look fat and have to turn and see how big their butts look in those pants. I think that there are many examples like this, but that it is changing. Grey on a man used to look distinguishing, wrinkles around the eyes made them look more knowledgeable, rough hands were a sign of a hard worker… mow men color, apply eye cream, and get manicures. I’m not saying they are wrong to do it, I’m just wondering what happened to make them think they are no longer OK the way they were. Women are constantly bombarded with messages that say in order to be sexy or loved one must fit into this little tiny mold and smile about it. I think that not having to worry about measuring up to Matthew McConaughey and the ability to pee standing up without getting any on their shoes are the two great advantages of being a man. Do men really want to give that up, or are they starting to feel the pressure?