Lost and Found

[Melanie]

How do you know this? How do you know there even is a God? If the junkie says, "I prayed to God and he answered me", why on Earth would you believe him? Hallucinations are a noted side effect of taking junk!

You're last exclamation is suggesting I take drugs because I believe God's Word? I'm guessing you're losing your cool because my answers above have made sense and leave you with only emotional outbursts that are useless in productive discussions?

1st Question...Matthew 7:7-23, and the whole chapter of Matthew 13 (the parable of the sower and the seed), and Matthew 25:1-13 (parable of the 10 virgins…5 were ready and 5 were not) all answer your first question.

2nd Question...I could write a book to answer your second question so you'll need to be more specific…or you can read Evidence That Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell. It's the size of War & Peace.

3rd Question...Your third question I must answer with a question…why not? Are you saying a junkie has no worth? God doesn't believe that. He loves the vilest of sinners (not the sin) Romans 5:8

[mal4mac]

You're last exclamation is suggesting I take drugs because I believe God's Word? I'm guessing you're losing your cool because my answers above have made sense and leave you with only emotional outbursts that are useless in productive discussions?

I didn't say that, I was thinking of the junkie. I'm not losing my cool, you're mistaking me for Sandman

3rd Question...Your third question I must answer with a question…why not? Are you saying a junkie has no worth? God doesn't believe that. He loves the vilest of sinners (not the sin) Romans 5:8

No. I take the view that everyone has worth, but I don't need some old guy in the sky to rubber stamp my adoption of that view.

[Volya]

I don't understand how this proves the existence of God rather than it just being a lucky incident. When I was a child I believed in God (I went to a Christian primary school and was unaware there was anything other than Christianity) and I don't remember any of my prayers being answered.

[Melanie]

The video's purpose is not to "prove the existence of God". It merely states that the heroin addict prayed the night before he received an answer. If you're a believer then you know it was God who did the answering. If you're not then you just scratch your head and claim everyone else must be "hallucinating' according to mal4mac.

Why didn't you get answers to your prayers? I understand Volya. You probably did get answers to your prayers and don't remember since you were a child at the time.

But for those who pray and have not received answers then God's Word tells us why:

1. Matthew 21:23….we don't really believe we'll get an answer. "If you believe you will receive".

2. James 4:3….we pray with the wrong motives.

3. Isaiah 59:1-2….Unconfessed sin separates us from God. You don't have to ask forgiveness after you become a believer but you have to admit your wrongs.

4. Ezekiel 14:3….we set up idols in our hearts that separate us from God. (idols can be any addictions to drugs, gluttony, shopping, laziness, hedonism, etc…whatever we put before God…whatever we fill our hearts and minds with).

5. Proverbs 21:13…We don't reach out to others. “If a man shuts his ears to the cry of the poor, he too will cry out and not be answered”.

6. John 15:7….We don't ever read the Bible. “If you remain in me and my word remains in you, ask whatever you wish and it will be given to you”.

7. John 8:47….We never sincerely gave ourselves to God. We must belong to God before we can communicate with God. “He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God”

8. Proverbs 3:5-6…Sometimes we don't understand God's answer. God is all-knowing and can see things that we can't. The Bible tells us to trust God, rather than our own understanding of what's best for us. Isaiah 55:8-9 God's thoughts and ways are not our thoughts and ways. 1Corinthians 13:12 says we see things dimly but someday we will see clearly and understand. So we need to just be patient and trust.

9. Sometimes God answers "yes". Sometimes God answers "no" because he knows it's not the best thing for us. Sometimes he answers "wait" because only he knows the perfect timing. Be patient and trust him.

[MorpheusSandman]

You can't "keep track" of when and if prayers are answered because you don't know when God's perfect timing is.

Or you don't know when random, positive things will happen; how in the world do you tell the difference? What's more, how do you tell the difference between it being YOUR God answering prayers and any of the thousands of other Gods answering prayers, since surely you'd agree that good things happen to people praying to other Gods, yes?

Your point in posting the video seems to be that: "see, a down-and-out junkie prays for help, and receives help from a guy going around and doing random acts of kindness!" The implication is that there's cause-and-effect happening here between prayer -> God -> event. Yet, as everyone knows, correlation does not prove causation, and, as anyone even remotely scientifically literate knows, you can't even begin to think of causation until you rule out other variables, like sheer randomness.

Keep in mind that there are addicts who ARE believers, that pray for years and never manage to get over their addiction. I should know as my father is one of him, and he's struggled with addiction now for almost 50 years. What's more, one of his best friends from church was an addict too. They spent years praying for and supporting each other. My father's still alive, still fighting his addiction, still falling into periods where he finds himself drinking to excess; his friend died while driving drunk, and, what's worse, had his kid in the car at the time who died too. Please inform me as to precisely what God's plan was in this mess?

Even with the story you posted, we have no clue how that man's life will turn out. I'd put my money on statistics that this "miracle" does not cure this guy, that, eventually, he goes back to using and putting stress and strain on his family. Why? Because I've known too many addicts that have talked of receiving a "miracle," yet have gone right back to using. These "miracles" are momentary; the effects of most of them don't last long enough in the minds of addicts to "cure" them of addiction. What's more, the nonsense belief that they do (along with other nonsense beliefs like an individual can "beat" addiction through sheer willpower) probably prevents addicts from getting the kind of help that actually IS more successful long term.

If I seem to be having an "emotional outburst" it's because I've had 20+ years of first-hand experience with addiction. I know how ugly it is, and I know how "magical thinking" does diddly-squat to help, much less cure, it. So when people post videos like this all I can think is "you have no clue what the reality of addiction is like." That newsmen peddle sentimental slop like that is disgusting, and it's no less fictional than the most sappy Steven Spielberg film. However "emotional" I am, my logic behind this is unassailable. "Evidence" like this video fails in every way that evidence can fail logically, rationally, and scientifically. It's no better than people using those cable TV "reality" ghost shows as proof/evidence ghosts exists, or the Finding Bigfoot show as evidence/proof bigfoot exists.

[Melanie]

I see you posted #20 only a few minutes after my post #19 so you probably missed my answers as to why God answers the prayers of some believers and not other believers. You may want to scroll up to #19. Also, I'm not out to prove cause and effect. I acknowledge that my engine runs on faith…based on God's Word. I'm a believer because of what I've experienced personally and because of what I've observed around me. I haven't ignored it and I haven't shut it out. I've embraced it. I'm not pushing this on anyone. I only share the joy and the knowledge I've learned from God's Word when others ask me to...but that's it.

MorpheusSandman, I'm very sorry about your father's endless struggles with addiction. You're right, I "have no clue what the reality of addiction is like". I think AA says "once an alcoholic always an alcoholic" since it resurfaces and must be dealt with over and over. I can say that everyone has a story to tell of suffering, some seemingly more difficult that others but that doesn't diminish the struggle of drug or alcohol addiction. But God is not looking the other way. He's paying close attention to how we deal with our struggles. He's watching your father, he's watching you, he's watching me…every minute of every hour. His answers to prayer may be yes, no (because only he knows what is best for us), or he may answer "wait" (for the perfect timing). I choose to just believe and trust him.

You don't believe anyone can be cured of drug addiction but there are many examples of those who have changed radically…and go on to lead productive lives, like very effective motivational speakers that help others…lots of others. Your bitterness is an immense burden. I understand it but encourage you to redirect that negative energy into a positive productive direction. You can. And that's when you'll see change.

[Calidore]

You don't believe anyone can be cured of drug addiction but there are many examples of those who have changed radically…and go on to lead productive lives, like very effective motivational speakers that help others…lots of others. Your bitterness is an immense burden. I understand it but encourage you to redirect that negative energy into a positive productive direction. You can. And that's when you'll see change.

This is good advice regardless of one's religious beliefs.

[MorpheusSandman]

I see you posted #20 only a few minutes after my post #19 so you probably missed my answers as to why God answers the prayers of some believers and not other believers. You may want to scroll up to #19. Also, I'm not out to prove cause and effect. I acknowledge that my engine runs on faith…based on God's Word.

No, I did read your post, but it just presumes as true the proposition (God exists and answers prayers) that your OP was out to provide evidence for; myself and others have stated why that video is abysmal evidence on any reasonable standard. Such things are only evidence if you believe beforehand, and then it's only evidence if you ignore the mountains of counter-evidence, which is what your post #19 has to "explain away." That post just reminds me of the LessWrong dictum that If you can explain every outcome, you have zero knowledge.

You believe God answers prayers, yet how do you explain the studies on intercessory prayer that show zero correlation between prayer and a higher rate of recovery? You believe God answers prayers, but have to cook up excuses why some prayers go unanswered. It's quite easy to convince yourself that those whose prayers haven't been answered have "prayed for the wrong reasons." It's easier to convince yourself of that than to actually, legitimately, challenge the belief that God exists and answers prayers, to consider the possibility that random sh!t happens for no cosmic reason, that humans are as important to the universe as a gnat in the Sahara is to us. Those things make people uncomfortable, so they, through the cognitive bias of Wishful Thinking, concoct comforting beliefs like "God exists and answers prayers," and then use other biases like hindsight bias, or selection bias, to support that belief.

But God is not looking the other way. He's paying close attention to how we deal with our struggles. He's watching your father, he's watching you, he's watching me…every minute of every hour. His answers to prayer may be yes, no (because only he knows what is best for us), or he may answer "wait" (for the perfect timing). I choose to just believe and trust him.

The God that watches and does nothing is an evil SOB that we should curse rather than worship. There is absolutely nothing about dealing with addiction that is "best for us," just as there is nothing about dealing with chronic pain, something I also have extensive experience with, that's "best for us." That people make the best out of terrible situations is just human nature, but to assume that what is gained makes up for what's lost is nonsense. When there are examples of addictions that destroys families, children, and the addicts themselves, there's nothing, absolutely nothing, "good" that comes out of that situation.

You don't believe anyone can be cured of drug addiction but there are many examples of those who have changed radically…and go on to lead productive lives, like very effective motivational speakers that help others…lots of others. Your bitterness is an immense burden. I understand it but encourage you to redirect that negative energy into a positive productive direction. You can. And that's when you'll see change.

I'm not bitter, I'm just ticked off when people propose magical thinking to fix problems, like addiction, that magical thinking can not and does not help at all, especially when they have zero experience with said problem. There are too many people that suffer through problems that they should get real help for, but instead they sit around believing that God will send some miracle and cure them. When it comes to addiction, or chronic pain, such miracles almost never happen, and even when they SEEM to happen, they're often illusory, temporary. I'm sure there are SOME people that have come to believe in God and then kicked addiction, but they are in the extreme minority, especially in comparison to the people who believe and pray and continue to suffer instead of seeking real help.

I mean, if you want to believe in your invisible, cosmic daddy then that's fine; but when you start posting videos proposing that this being answers prayers and helps addicts, I'm not going to sit by quietly because I know the reality of such a thing. Whatever "bitterness" I had over dealing with chronic addiction and pain is long past. I have redirected all of that towards positive endeavors, whether it's helping others deal with such problems, or in my passion for the arts, or in my poetry writing. However, I was only able to move past that bitterness once I got over the delusion about there being Gods out there that was going to dump miracles in my lap. Once I realized that the responsibility was solely on me to go out and make my life better, make it what I wanted it to be, was when I was able to do something. Despite all the stories about faith/belief "saving" people, I find that it paralyzes people far more often. It paralyzes them by allowing them to think that, eventually, God will wave his magic wand and save/heal/whatever them from their situation; and they keep waiting when they should be taking responsibility and doing the things that might actually help.

[cafolini]

No, I did read your post, but it just presumes as true the proposition (God exists and answers prayers) that your OP was out to provide evidence for; myself and others have stated why that video is abysmal evidence on any reasonable standard. Such things are only evidence if you believe beforehand, and then it's only evidence if you ignore the mountains of counter-evidence, which is what your post #19 has to "explain away." That post just reminds me of the LessWrong dictum that If you can explain every outcome, you have zero knowledge.

You believe God answers prayers, yet how do you explain the studies on intercessory prayer that show zero correlation between prayer and a higher rate of recovery? You believe God answers prayers, but have to cook up excuses why some prayers go unanswered. It's quite easy to convince yourself that those whose prayers haven't been answered have "prayed for the wrong reasons." It's easier to convince yourself of that than to actually, legitimately, challenge the belief that God exists and answers prayers, to consider the possibility that random sh!t happens for no cosmic reason, that humans are as important to the universe as a gnat in the Sahara is to us. Those things make people uncomfortable, so they, through the cognitive bias of Wishful Thinking, concoct comforting beliefs like "God exists and answers prayers," and then use other biases like hindsight bias, or selection bias, to support that belief.

The God that watches and does nothing is an evil SOB that we should curse rather than worship. There is absolutely nothing about dealing with addiction that is "best for us," just as there is nothing about dealing with chronic pain, something I also have extensive experience with, that's "best for us." That people make the best out of terrible situations is just human nature, but to assume that what is gained makes up for what's lost is nonsense. When there are examples of addictions that destroys families, children, and the addicts themselves, there's nothing, absolutely nothing, "good" that comes out of that situation.

I'm not bitter, I'm just ticked off when people propose magical thinking to fix problems, like addiction, that magical thinking can not and does not help at all, especially when they have zero experience with said problem. There are too many people that suffer through problems that they should get real help for, but instead they sit around believing that God will send some miracle and cure them. When it comes to addiction, or chronic pain, such miracles almost never happen, and even when they SEEM to happen, they're often illusory, temporary. I'm sure there are SOME people that have come to believe in God and then kicked addiction, but they are in the extreme minority, especially in comparison to the people who believe and pray and continue to suffer instead of seeking real help.

I mean, if you want to believe in your invisible, cosmic daddy then that's fine; but when you start posting videos proposing that this being answers prayers and helps addicts, I'm not going to sit by quietly because I know the reality of such a thing. Whatever "bitterness" I had over dealing with chronic addiction and pain is long past. I have redirected all of that towards positive endeavors, whether it's helping others deal with such problems, or in my passion for the arts, or in my poetry writing. However, I was only able to move past that bitterness once I got over the delusion about there being Gods out there that was going to dump miracles in my lap. Once I realized that the responsibility was solely on me to go out and make my life better, make it what I wanted it to be, was when I was able to do something. Despite all the stories about faith/belief "saving" people, I find that it paralyzes people far more often. It paralyzes them by allowing them to think that, eventually, God will wave his magic wand and save/heal/whatever them from their situation; and they keep waiting when they should be taking responsibility and doing the things that might actually help.

How do you know if the man who cuts a log will next be hit in the head with it by some criminal or the log will save his life if he falls in the river. You cannot know the next effect, no matter what you expect. So can only pray, verbally or not, as to what you wish. You are missing the point. Christianity might be a series of beliefs, but more fundamentally it is a series of realizations about the impossibility of determining outcome. God only knows. You don't get the fundamental because you have been led to believe it is just idiotic belief. But that's the ginger on the cake.

[Volya]

All these threads seem a bit pointless. They pretty much always come down to the same few members arguing against each other and no matter what the threads original intention was it always comes down to the same argument.

[cafolini]

All these threads seem a bit pointless. They pretty much always come down to the same few members arguing against each other and no matter what the threads original intention was it always comes down to the same argument.

So, who won the argument? You? By saying that? Obviously this thread is a lot less pointless than would be necessary for this condescending youdiot not ignoring it?

[Volya]

So, who won the argument? You? By saying that? Obviously this thread is a lot less pointless than would be necessary for this condescending youdiot not ignoring it?

Calm down.

[Scheherazade]

~

W a r n i n g

Please do not personalise your arguments.

If you are unable to show respect those whose opinions and beliefs are different from yours,

please consider not taking part in the discussions.

~

[YesNo]

But how many junkies have taken the free handout and shot it up their arm? It would be much better if the rich dude gave the money to health & welfare programmes. Then the money would, more likely, be put to good use. You don't see Bill Gates, Warren Buffet or Barack Obama scattering money around at Christmas. They've made a more considered response to the problems of the disadvantaged.

It doesn't matter. They make a choice to shoot it up their arm or they choose not to. The person handing out money makes a choice to hand out money. He doesn't have to. It's his business what he does with his money.

What I think happened to the addict is that he prays the previous evening because he fears his wife would leave him if he didn't. He didn't expect anything to happen because of it. The next day someone gives him some money. That shocks him and sets the stage for a religious experience which it seems like he had. After that, he tries again to get rehabilitated. The religious experience is real whether he ultimately succeeds with his rehabilitation or not.

It is his business (and choice), how he wants to interpret what happened. Just because onlookers, not themselves having the experience, feel the need to protect their metaphysics by calling it a "coincidence" does not mean it wasn't a legitimate religious experience.

Saying something is a coincidence assumes there is a deterministic, causal explanation that can't be established by that evidence. However, these religious experiences are not deterministic. One can look at them as a resonance between a divine reality and an organism that didn't have to happen in this conscious way for the person. When it becomes conscious, evidenced by the addict's emotional state, onlookers like ourselves have a choice to make: Was this caused by some sort of hallucination, since we don't want to accept the alternative, or did we just witness a dance between the addict and a real partner?

[MorpheusSandman]

You cannot know the next effect, no matter what you expect... Christianity might be a series of beliefs, but more fundamentally it is a series of realizations about the impossibility of determining outcome...

My profession is online poker, so I'm well aware of the limitations of knowing what card is coming next. However, between the knowledge I have (of my hand, of my opponent's tendencies, of the remaining cards of the deck, of the community cards, etc.), and the knowledge I don't have (my opponent's hand, what card will come next, etc.), there are better and worse choices to be made. The exact same thing applies to life itself. We always know some things, we always don't know some things, and in that knowledge and ignorance there are choices to be made, and those choices define the direction of one's life.

Is it possible for people to make all the right decisions and end up in crappy situations, or for people to make all the wrong decisions in end up in great situations? Yes, just like in poker it's possible to do all the right things and lose on the last, random card; or do all the wrong things and win on that last card. The idea, though, is that the house always wins in the end. It is impossible, given enough trials, to make every right decision and lose in the long run, and vice versa. When you look at the most successful people in life they usually got there because they made lots of good choices, not because a miracle was dumped in their lap. When I spend time with people in miserable situations it's very frequently because of the exact opposite, a life full of bad choices.

There are, of course, lots of additional things one could say, such as the deck is stacked for and against some people at birth due to class, race, gender, and to greater/lesser extremes depending on geographic location. Sometimes, people have little chance from birth, like many impoverished children that take up with gangs and drop out of school just to survive. What's more, it often just takes one unforeseeable disaster to destroy a life of good choices (like, say, a drunk driver, or a heart-attack). Yet, despite all the exceptions, I tend to find that most people are mostly responsible for being in the situations they find themselves in, and it's much easier for them to pray than it is to take responsibility and do what they need to do to turn their life around.