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I believe that she asked us to be honest and descriptive. Who are YOU to judge Virgil's reaction. She wants to know people's reactions...if she didn't want to hear the truth, she wouldn't have asked the way that she asked...Quote:
Originally Posted by OrphanPip
Because this is a discussion forum, presumably Virgil accepts that his opinions are placed up for debate, just as mine are, and are open to being challenged? Who knows maybe I'll even have my opinion changed.Quote:
Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC
Edit: Or maybe the formation of a thread specifically about discussing polyamorous relations would be called for.
Thumbs up to you. You said exactly what I was thinking.Quote:
Originally Posted by OrphanPip
And Bienvenu, yes everyone has expressed their true and honest opinion and each poster has a right to be heard. Orphan is merely responding to Virgil's admittingly appaulling remarks, not once does he seem to say that Virgil shouldn't have posted. He's merely responding with his own opinion, which I deeply agree with.
Ack, all of this stuff has made me real pissy. I'm going to bed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrphanPip
"My question is: if I were your daughter/sister/best friend/aunt/neice/grandmother/granddaughter/coworker...whatever...what would you think if you found this out about me? If this idea angers/upsets/disgusts you, please, be honest and descriptive, as I want badly to understand people's aversion to what has become a very happy part of my life"
The subject matter is NOT whether this is right/wrong. The matter for discussion is what people's aversion is. We ought to stick to that. It seems that you are coming down on Virgil's opinions...his aversions to this situation. Maybe I am wrong but it seems that you are becoming defensive of the situation.
Maybe I'm crazy, but the perceived morality of the relationship is clearly an issue for Virgil, thus it is clearly related to the aversion some individuals may feel towards this. Seriously, how do you expect me not to be defensive when you directly address me with accusations of being judgmental of Virgil. On top of that, you include very thinly veiled slights at people who support her decision to be polyamorous by suggesting that they have a vested interest in protecting their "lifestyles from judgment". I presume Virgil is quite willing, and able, to defend his position or he wouldn't bother to respond. I'm hardly "coming down on Virgil's opinions", as if I'm bullying him and insulting his intelligence. I wouldn't bother to articulate an argument against his opinion if I did not respect his right to have one.Quote:
Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC
Ok...but I just wanted to point out that...according to what I saw here...that our purpose isn't to hash out whether it is right or wrong, but to state our opinions/feelings that this individual may be confronted with. She will no doubt be confronted with people like me, Virgil, and you. Why don't we just leave it at that?Quote:
Originally Posted by OrphanPip
Fair enough, I'm willing to leave it as it is.
This is true of the vast majority of monogamous relationships as well, so does it really matter? as quoted by OrphanPip-----sorry forgot how to do the quotes.
I think it does manner. The lady asked what my adversion would be. I discarded for the purposes of this forum my PERSONAL beliefs about it which oyu may well guess and rather decided to point out the trap she and her companions are oh so slowly falling into. SOMEONE will get hurt. Might be the lady, might be one of the guys but sooner or later human nature will out and this lovely little house of cards will crumple intothe dust. Fully agree with you about monogamous relationships BUT that isn't the issue here. My adversion is simply that one person will be eventually sold short--won;t even get into the consequences of the other guy wondering who might be next on the plate or the young lady thinking maybe a third might be permissable. So it matters. Right now they just don't see it.
Well, Pip has the scientific and anthropological (edit: and moral) angle of this debate pretty much cinched. I'll just say that Virgil and Bienvenu are being foolishly Eurocentric. Just because in your culture it is common to do things in a certain way doesn't mean that it is the best and only way that things should be done. I wish that you would stop being so hateful and open your mind. We were asked to help, not to condemn or ridicule.
Furthermore Virgil, it is extremely shocking to me that you are behaving so disrespectfully. Yes, your opinions were asked for; that doesn't mean that you have to be so mean. We were asked to show some sensitivity and kindness. In what way were your remarks constructive? This is someone's real life that we're talking about here.
I wonder, would you have spoken out so brazenly if this were a case of one male with multiple female partners? I sincerely doubt it. Oh, you probably would have said something judgemental and derogatory, but not so vehemently. Ugh, now I feel ill.
Pip's argument stands. There are problems in every monogamous relationship. In almost every case, one of the parties is "sold short." Someone is always hurt. So what makes a polygynandrous relationship any different/worse? Besides, she's fine with her relationship. That's not going to change. The issue is whether or not she's going to tell her family and friends, not whether or not she's going to abandon her lifestyle choice. I guess your answer would be not to let the cat out of the bag.Quote:
Originally Posted by mtpspur
Ok, Chances are, in the long run, this relationship won't work out but neither will half of conventional marriages.
Even though I'm pretty liberal if I was a friend/family member my first concern would be for your happiness and well being. I would question if this is truly working for you and the two guys, since you've already confirmed you're happy I would trust your judgement.
As for the family, if they're like mine there would be a lot of hand wringing, praying, and drama but eventually they will get over it. (At least that was what happened when my cousin came out) The big question is being yourself and being honest with family and friends worth the risk that some won't accept it? What's the worst that could happen?
I'm just wondering for those that have a problem with this lifestyle. What would you do if your sister/daughter/mother came to you and told you they were in this type of relationship? Seriously, what could you do? Aside from expressing your displeasure and perhaps counseling your daughter/sister don't you kind of have to accept the situation?
I my opinion is if the person is this poly relationship, that all 3 happy then ok,
as person I would hope to be open minded enough, if you happy then that fine, even if I do agree with they lifestyle but it up to them as long don't try push their beliefs of they relationship on to me.
If booted was other footed and it was man in similar relationship, most men would consider a good thing and so would most friends.
Being honest does not mean being hurtful or cruel in our posts.Quote:
Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC
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Please do not personalise your arguments.
Posts containing personal remarks will be removed without any further notice.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoolane
What I mean to said is' do not agree they lifestyle choice so I am to judge'.
Perhaps I have misunderstood what was requested. I was only speaking for myself AS IF I was a friend/family member and my first reactions tend to be of the warning nature. Whether she tells family members or not is really up to her. I am presuming she is at least 18 so as an adult it's down to her comfort levels. Way too much emphasis on the monagamy here. I still don't see what that has ANYTHING to do with my reply which if read carefully ONLY focused on the THREE members of the relationship and not on any others be they single, divorced or cousins. I really did not have any adversions to her relationship--sounded rather tame and dare I say it--banal. I have known some very interesting relationships over the years--will have to work a LOT harder then that to shock me anymore. So whether the cat stays in the bag or no is up to her. My reaction was on the quality of the cat. I could have gone for quite a bit about commitment issues but I didn;t sense any advice in that area was requested.
Thank you Bien. If people want to spit in the face of moral decorum, then they have to expect a reaction by the majority of those that feel those morals mean something. You want to do your own thing, then do it. You're free to do it. But I am free to have a judgmental opinion of that person and if I want to ostracize that person from my circle I'm free to do so. I have a right to my opinion, my free speech, and my free associations. If that person person feels slighted, then don't spit in the face of moral decorum.Quote:
Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC
I was thinking of this question today, and frankly I find it impossible to believe this has been going on for three years. I think it's all made up.
I guess for the three people involved it's their own choice, and nobody, even their families or friends are in any position to put a stop to it. I’m sure they will judge them though, as we all judge each other’s actions whether we admit it or not. Personally I would imagine most people would consider the two men involved to be pretty weak-minded individuals, and the woman to be taking advantage of that fact. Having judged them so… I still say it’s their choice!
.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scheherazade
You know what, I feel bad for the annonymous poster. To her: I truly hope everything works out well for you and that you don't let others discourage you even if they do incite "social norms" or "moral decorums". Just do whatever is in your heart. If your friends or family can't accept who you are, then too hell with them. Maybe they'll come around, maybe they won't.
About a year ago I just discovered that I had another uncle that I never knew about. Why? Because his parents rejected him because he was gay and ceased talking to him for years. He's my dad's brother and I never even knew he existed. There's moral decorum for you.
No it's not. There's a world of difference between something fixed by biology and choosing to live in a threesome. The first is not immoral. Morality requires choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielBenoit
Anony: My take on polygamy, in whatever its forms, is mixed. If Joseph Smith had been alive today he probably would have been medicated and sent into sensitivity training as part of his sentencing. Multiple partnership is tricky. If it was two women and one man, I'd be concerned about sexism and subjugation. In your case, if I knew you I'd probably say more power to you sister; however, I'd tread lightly not so much because of what conservative posters/people might think, or liberals, but for your own well being, and the well being of your lovers. When the non-traditional really works it can be a blessing, but those fault lines can be messy. Just be careful.
I question your morality. If it allows you to insult people on a personal level when they come to you for help and advice (despite the fact that they are harming no one), yet according to your set of values you may vehemently oppose to other people's personal lifestyle choices and force them into a situation that they're not comfortable with just so that you can feel better about yourself, then you're wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
{edit}
As I was waking, in semi-conscious gastronomic distress over a meal I should not have eaten so early, I heard the posts of this discussion in my head; I am not sure why, as it doesn't particularly phase me that a woman would keep two men off balance sexually. I have a story about this based on the Arthurian legends, in fact, where Guinevere is sort of a modern Cleopatra, using her sexuality as a control mechanism, very much aware that she has set two of her lovers against each other, hardly a Gnostic utopia.
I was dissatisfied with my answer, as I am not sure how I'd handle this in a social context: Do the men want it known they are the OP's partners in equal time? I still think it is somewhat delicate, as a revelation, for obvious reasons. I'd tell my best friend--maybe. In my novella revelation isn't the issue, as it is a spy thriller.
I wouldn't be shocked if a friend of mine was in a polyamorous relationship as long as everyone involved is happy with it. You suppose you could tell your best friend and see how they react. If they don't support you, then they're probably not your best friend. As for your other friends/ family/ acquaintances, do they really need to know?
Sounds like a book I would be interested in reading. Will we get a chance too?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jozanny
It has some tactical problems, just like my longish autobiographical piece, so I do not know if I will expire first or fix these issues before that. I have carried them with me since college, so it has been a burden.Quote:
Originally Posted by qimissung
I am not afraid of rejection. I just plow on, even though I'd like to kill my landlord for destroying my near recovery of my old pace, but I am also more cautious about selling myself short, and I want these projects to amount to the best I can make them.
If I submitted my issues to this thread I'd probably shut it down:lol:, but I think the community has done a good job with mainly pragmatic responses.
Keep at it, thenJozanny :); it's all any if us can do. :p
In response to the anonymous poster, wouldn't a better question be 'how well do you think yu are going to be able to handle their various reactions?' If you think it's going to be difficult to handle any negativity, then perhaps, in this imperfect world, it might be wiser not to reveal your situation just yet. If you know them well and feel that ,after an initial fallout, they might, like papaya's family, come around, then by all means, let them know.
Having been in an open relationship myself, I'd be pretty concerned and worried for you. These things never truly work out, and I find there is an awful lot of self denial and hurt going on in the mind of at least one partner. Jealousy, attitude clashing, attempting to share time...
Having said that, to each their own- I wouldn't look down on you or ostracize you, or judge your decisions. It's your decision to make, and so long as nobody is getting hurt, all power to you.
Our next letter:Quote:
I am being bullied by a coworker ( slightly superior ) at work.
What I would like to know is what would you do? What should I do? DO I quit and let him win? DO I stand up to him and make him more mad and therefore more dangerous? DO I just let him think he has won and give him whatever he wants so he will leave me alone and let me get on with the job I love? I am sure I am not the only one who has had to deal with bullies, I’ve been doing it my whole life I seem to attract them which is why I am posting this anonymously I don’t need any potential internet bullies here.
Document everything that you can, and seek legal suit. The threat alone taken to your (or his/her) boss, will stop it. Although there may possibly be subtle repercussions, it has to be better than what you are currently going through.
Just my spur of the moment thoughts...
My advice is identical. The legal way is better than to start a fight alone with no one to support you. You need to be cautious. Good luck!Quote:
Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC
First of all, forget the attraction thing. Don't believe YOU attract them, because if you do then the negative feeling will stop you from defending yourself, which is what you should eventually do. Instead, think that it happened to you the same way it could have happened to anyone. Remember that abusers are always abusing more than one person. It's their way of life. It's what they are apparently good for, and they have to be stopped somehow. Do not refrain from taking defensive actions, or this individual will come to conclude he can do whatever he wants with whomever he wants. You have no obligation to put up with an uncomfortable situation. Try to find a way to prove you are being bullied. Gather all proofs you can, and present them to your boss. My humble opinion.
Another letter:
I have a friend I've known for forever. My friend recently emailed me and asked to borrow money. She said it is for a medical procedure (it is necessary). My friend lives in another country, she moved back to her home country after being in the US for several years. She borrowed money from me a few years ago and hasn't paid me back yet. The agreement was that when she got on her feet she would pay me back, she hasn't gotten back on her feet yet. I have a feeling that she isn't trying as hard as she could but I don't know for sure. Anyways her parents have money but my friend refuses to ask them. Part of the reason my friend moved back to her home country was to spite her parents, she doesn't have a good relationship with them. I should add that my friend is a grown woman with two kids of her own (she's a single mom). If I do loan her the money I do not expect that it will be paid back anytime soon if ever. WWYD?
The only thing i can think of to suggest is that if you really dont feel comfortable about loaning her the money, try to find a way to encourage her to speak with her family, resolve their issues and get it from them. If its a very important op, i'm sure her parents would want to help her regardless of any differences. She just needs to knock down the barrier. If that doesnt work i dont know what else to suggest.
Being a good friend doesn't mean you need to lend somebody money. Being a good friend can mean encouraging her to look into other avenues that are healthier for both of you- and for your friendship- including trying to rekindle old familial ties. I wouldn't lend the money, because, while it is a friend, you have done so before, and have not been paid back... normally, with any of my friends, I take it in good faith that I will get money back- and I DO, so I feel comfortable lending to them again.
Its a toughie...
If you have the money to "lend" and understand that you'll never see it again, then, well, you might consider "loaning" her the money. If money's tight for you, I'd try talking with her about getting a medical loan, asking her parents or some similar thing.
I think you should base your decision on the kind of reliability of your friend in other fields. Maybe it's true she can't find a way to pay you back soon. Maybe she wants to pay you back, but she just can't for the moment. Now, if she has proved herself dependable in other matters regarding your relationship with her, then you may consider to give her another hand, that is, if you think she deserves it for reasons different from money lending. Consider you are probably the only person she can ask for help. If your finances allow you, I believe you have quite a few aspects to consider.
I am going to play devil's advocate here and suggest that giving money can and does destroy bonds. Two years ago I gave my sister money because her husband wasn't working and she was hysterical and as usual big sister had to plug the hole in the windmill. We are now estranged and our personal relationship is unfortunately marred and may never heal, and she is my kid sister.
Your friend may love you, but she may see you as a mark, and I am not sure her family should not be involved in relation to her surgery. I'd decline--and that may sound brutal, but you might end up resenting her for taking advantage of you.
What Jozanny says makes lots of sense too. I have lived a similar situation between my mom and my uncle (her only bro). As I suggested before, there are many flanks to consider before making up your mind.
The OP:Quote:
Originally Posted by Scheherazade
Our next letter:Quote:
For the last 15 years, I kept our family; my husband doesn't work but he didn't bother to engage in housework either. So, I decided last year to separate from him. I moved out, together with my two grown-up children. Part of me was hoping he would come round and try to make his own living. But no, it ended up by my paying his rent and backing him up financially.
At the same time, my daughter (20 years old then) married, a man 11 years older than herself and whom she knew only a couple of months, and not until one week afterward, she told me about it. She hasn't finished her education yet, and is depending on him solely. He had an own small haulage contracting firm. I had the impression that it was in reaction to our separating, trying to find some "secure harbor" for herself but she denied that. Nevertheless, I feel guilty, even though she supported my decision to separate.
Then, just a couple of weeks later, I lost my job, and finally, in May '10, moved back to my husband, mainly because I can't afford to keep two flats any longer.
It now turns out that my son-in-law is considerably in debt, with the tax office for instance, resulting in the tax office's threatening to withdraw his business license. They (my daughter and her husband) then decided to have the business running on my daughter's name, and my son-in-law as her employee. I am worried because I don't like the idea of her facing all that trouble besides having to concentrate on her school qualifications, instead of enjoying some more years of youth and light-heartedness as it should be.
But what troubles me most is the fact that he doesn't treat her very kindly and thoughtful, and I don't have the impression that they love each other very much, but I don't trust my feelings anymore.
What do you think? What would you do?
I would do nothing about the daughter. Parental interference in adult children's lives never ends well, so I would merely make it obvious that I was there to help, no matter what the issues.
One area I woulf take action is in my own marriage. You give the impression you separated because you think your husband's lazy. I would expect there to be much more to it than that - if that was the case, almost nobody would be married now!
Secondly, while you might have been ordered to pay your ex-husband's rent, you must have been able to get a re-assessment when you lost your job, so returning to the marriage for financial reasons becomes suspect as well.
If the marriage is finished, finish with it - repaired relationships never last long and I'd be looking to move out again asap.
Your problems don't seem insurmountable, but they do need some work!
Good luck!