By the way, Niamh, your poems are very nice...they remember the crepuscolar poetry of Ugo Foscolo, or the decadent thematics of Eugenio Montale...do you know?
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By the way, Niamh, your poems are very nice...they remember the crepuscolar poetry of Ugo Foscolo, or the decadent thematics of Eugenio Montale...do you know?
My friend, my ipothesys is founded on hystorical dates (biography of Crollalanza and others).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Niamh
Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimo
Ugo Foscolo? Eugenip Montale?
Eugenio Montale :
Bring me the sunflower that I may transplant it
Bring me the sunflower that I may transplant it
in my saline burned ground,
and that it might display all day to the blue expanses
of the sky the anxiety of its pale yellow face.
Things that are dark long for brightness,
the bodies exhaust themselves in a flowing
of colours: these become music. To fade away
is therefore a chance among chances.
Bring me the plant which leads
to where the blonde transparencies appear
and where life dissolves like essence;
bring me the sunflower insane with light.
Often I have encountered the evil of living
Often I have encountered the evil of living:
it was the strangled stream which gurgles,
it was the crumpling sound of the dried out
leaf, it was the horse weaty and exhausted.
The good I knew not, other than the miracle
revealed by divine Indifference:
it was the statue in the slumber
of the afternoon, and the cloud, and the high flying falcon.
Ugo Foscolo "Alla sera" (Nightfall).
Nightfall
Perhaps because you are the image
of the silence of the grave, I cherish when you come to me
o evening! Whether summer clouds
and warm winds hold you in soft embrace,
or you send restless and long shadows
from frost-filled air to the universe,
you always fall, desired by me, and the secret
pathways of my heart you gently hold.
You make me wander with my thoughts on paths
that lead to the eternal void, and all the while,
this evil time fleets by, and with it masses
of care depart, and it dissipates along with me
and while I contemplate your peace,
the warrior spirit that roars within me sleeps.
I think you're all being had. It's not April Fools Day yet, but you're feeding the troll. Do you really think this poster is serious?
...
...."a poor player, that struts and frets his hour upon the stage, and then is heard no more; it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. "Quote:
Originally Posted by wessexgirl
By the way, also like sang the "Frankie goes to hollywood"...RELAX.... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by wessexgirl
Yes I think you are right, I've had enough of this rubbish anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by wessexgirl
Holy smoke!!! How did this crazy thread get to four pages long in one afternoon? :lol:
Moderate yourself, please.
We are gentleman.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neely
This thread have the typical taste of shakespearian play.......culture, tension, surreal, depth...and many readers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Or not ?
I got involved thats how! :lol: Irish remember? ;) gift of the gab.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
My dear friends, goodnight for this night.
The hystorical diatriba Shakespear/Crollalanza still it's opened...and I will return, soon...
Ciao a tutti dall'Italia,
Ultimo.
I spoke as I did because I thought you weren't serious, a troll as the other poster suggested, in other words deliberately trying to cause offence, to enflame, to provoke. If you are genuine in your claims then I apologise somewhat, but I am still out of this discussion anyway. Really your claim is so outrageous either way that it is not surprising that people think you are joking, who's to blame them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimo
There are a lot of theories about the real identity of Shakespeare:
1- He was a noble english, Shakespeare was his pseudonym.
2- He was not only one, but a group or authors.
etc...
I personally don't belive he was Italian, but it is possible. Even he was Italian, he still represents the English literature cause that was the language he chose.
The same about Clarice Lispector, she was born in Ukraine, but she lived in Brazil and her work was all written in portuguese, so she represents the Brazilian literature.
But the reason of this speculation here I can understand:
1- Shakespeare's identity is a mystery and always will be. The events and places of his biography (the birth house, for example) are fake. Just a actrative to improve tourism.
2- The reason why some scholars belive he was italian is clear: Shakespeare (wherever he was born) did not write something original. Almost all his plays are copies of Greek-Latin myths, arabic stories or italian popular plays (Commedia della Vita, especially). The origin of Romeo and Juliet, Hamlet, Julius Caesares, Marcus Antonius and Cleopatra, Il Mercante di Venezia is much earlier. Shakespeare translated to English what was well known in Italy. That is a fact!
Some may say he improved the plays. Some may say he made plagiarism.
But Shakespeare is still great for the theatre. That's the most important. Don't care the birth place, color of skin or nationality.
:lol::lol::lol:
:banana:
O'Leerie, O'Riley, O'Hare (?) and O'Hara
There's no-one as Irish as Barack Obama!
Obama also starts with O...
Shake is the same as 'Crolla'...
Although it is funny and the Corrigan Brothers had a great hit with their son, it is not more true than Shakespeare and Crollalanza (?).
In addition to this theory there is another saying that Shakespeare was Arab and his real name was Sheikh Jubair.
The theory about Michelagnolo Crollalanza/Shakespeare is serious, and has a wide following in the literary italian world : I speak about academic profesors, not about writers like Dan Brown....
I don't master enough English to going into specific details.
I'll dedicate to explain it when I'll have much more time.
My speech was and is serious, then a series of insults led me to defend myself.
The issue is very important, because involves national english traditions, politics issues and the credibility of English academic world, for almost 5 centuries.
The resistance is strong, but I think, the truth will come out. Would be fair also in memory of Shakespeare and for love of truth.
:lol::lol::lol:Allora! Is Thomas Kyd a Spaniard now? Heaven knows where such logic could put Spenser, author of the Faerie Queene. I think I've got to give this the prize for one of the more creative "who is Shakespeare" theories I've ever heard. I had heard one where Marlowe didn't really die and went off to live in Italy, sending his manuscripts back to his actor friend from Stratford (indeed, there was a million pound prize for the person who could prove that one last I checked, so it might well be worth forging something on parchment and stashing it behind a loose brick in Verona), but this is the first I've heard of the Bard of Messina. I'm picturing this fellow in cinquecento Sicilia sitting about writing "this blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England," after deciding that he should become fluent in English. This is, of course, primarily because it's the most unlikely language he can think of for an Italian to want to learn in the 1500's, but also because he's naturally completely inconspicuous and inept writing in his native tongue and yet has, not only a masterful command over writing English blank verse, but an ability to mimic a variety of dialects from all over London and various regions throughout Britain (what Italian worth his salt wouldn't naturally think of sticking a leek loving Welshman into his presentation of the Battle of Agincourt?). Then he decides to send all his manuscripts off to a theatre in London that just happens to be partly owned by an English actor whose name is an exact translation of his own...actually it might not make such a bad novel. Far more likely, of course, than the idea of a glover's son using the substantial basis in Latin he in all probability received in an Elizabethan grammar school in order to make out some Italian stories he picked up at the bookstands at St. Paul's.
P.S. When I posted the above, I had only read a bit of the thread and assumed it was at least partially tongue in cheek. In the above post Ultimo, seems quite serious, so I can only suggest, Ultimo, that you look a little more deeply into the evidence surrounding Shakespeare studies. It isn't as though we actually have no documentation at all about Shakespeare. I also don't know how well you know the original English texts of the plays, but to claim a non-native speaker wrote them is a bit like claiming that a German wrote Dante's Commedia.
http://shakespeareauthorship.com/
"Ultimo" means "the worst" in Spanish
X
This is a post post script to my message above. I had a few minutes and was curious enough to watch the video link that Ultimo posted earlier, which explained what I had missed connecting before, namely that Michelangelo Florio was John Florio's father and a tutor to Lady Jane Grey. That at least sounds like a more plausible candidate than the fellow sitting in Sicilia that I was imagining above, so I can see that there's a certain level of logic to this argument that I was missing before. I still think the theory is dead wrong. I've seen a lot of different authorship theories, but really don't see any need to presume that Shakespeare was anyone other than Shakespeare. However, this is actually a rather fun one as far as "who was Shakespeare" theories go. I had heard the son, John (Giovanni) Florio proposed before as a possible Shakespeare, but anyone who's read his rhetorical style would know that's simply an impossibility. I haven't read Michelangelo Florio's works (I think I remember he wrote some sort of handbook for Italian language instruction?), but I would be very surprised if his facility with English came anywhere near what the author of Shakespeare's plays demonstrates.
In Italiano :
Prima parte
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoYlnccGvic
Seconda parte
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-O3oX...eature=related
Terza parte
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l539x...eature=related
If anyone of us speak italian...
Is uncorrectQuote:
Originally Posted by xman
"Ultimo" means "The Last" in Italian or Latin.
Okay, technically the literal translation is "last", but it is used to mean "the worst" in Spanish. I don't know how Italians who are wrong about Shakespearean authorship use it.
X
I'm italian, speak italian and I don't use spanish words.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xman
The videos are very repetitive, and the cinematography is jarring.
Next time they'll recruit Franco Zeffirelli....
If your mission, seriously, is to change 5 centuries of credibility in the english world then you've got your work cut out for you, and surely you don't believe that talking to maybe, ten, people here, will change the world perception?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimo
These ten person are not the whole world....it's a kind of thumbnail.
You know?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chava
...I'm only breaking a little gate in the mistification's wall.
This question is creating interest, I seem...;)
heh, mystification, right.
http://shakespeareauthorship.com/howdowe.html
X
The theory on the "Italian Shakespeare" is true,and a friend of mine who studies english literature confirmed it.
Ciao Alice!
Well, you're both wrong then. My friends who are Professors of English literature confirm that so you're soooooooooooooooooo out trumped. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Ultimo
Michelangelo Florio of Calvanist religion, lived part of his life evading the religious persecutions at Palermo, Messina, Venice & Verona. He later lived in Stratford and London. He was the author of many tragedies and comedies which demonstrated his familiarity with the Italian scene.
We now proceed into a part of this tale that would have done credit to the imaginative logic of Frederick Forsyth.
After constantly running away from religious persecution, he arrived in Stratford, where he was the guest of a traveling player and drunkard, who treated him as a son, above all because he reminded him of his own child, William, who had died So he begins to be affectionately known as "William".
Translate the last name of his mother's lineage from "Crolla lanza" or "scrolla la lancia" to "shake the speare" and voila; "William Shakespeare" no longer prosecutable as a runaway heretic, but forced to hold the mystery of his true identity and origins.
The tale then evolves further. The son of Michelangelo Florio, via an English mother was John Florio, known in Italian as Giovanni Florio but who in his writings assumed an English identity.This Florio had many patrons. He says that he lived some years with the Earl of Southampton, Henry Wriothesley, possibly the young man in Shakespeare's Sonnets. Whatever the case, his knowledge of the same circle as the playwright, his education, facility with a wide vocabulary and with Italian literatue would have offered him the opportunity to refine the English language through playwriting. Were Florio and the Bard one and the same? Did they forge a collaborative working relationship?
Who knows? The limited biography of Shakespeare, compared to the popularity of his theatrical work is the crux and he is often suspected of being the front for other writers.
What a great fiction. You should write a story. It's just like the Davinci Code and that one was real popular.
Xman
When this thread first broke about Shakespeare being a Sicilian, I must confess to being fascinated by the prospect. So I dug further and if you thought that my "Da Vinci" contribution was an exercise in imaginative writing, try this for size:
1. Some of the work of Michelangelo Florio (Crollalanza on the maternal side) seems to be the original version of well known work attributed to Shakespeare, such as "troppu trafficu pinnenti", that could be the original of "Much ado about Nothing". Passed from father to son?
2. Michelangelo ran away from his family and lived for a certain period in Venice, where it seems his neighbour, an African, killed his own wife over jealousy. Drawing on this inspiration he wrote a tragedy: as Shakespeare subsequently wrote "Othello"
Seriously though, I would be interested on your input regards what were the original sources of Shakespeare's early reading & how they moulded his subsequent writing.
But there are some obvious problems with the "Italian Shakespeare" theory which no one seems to be pointing out:
1) "At 16 gratueted at "Gimnasium" in latin, greek and history." If Shakespeare was Italian and consummate in the Italtian language, why does his Latin suck? Think of all the Italian plays he's written and all the Latin sentences he's used in them.... ..... ..... Um, how about Julius Caesar and all those lines of Italian.....
Furthermore, Ben Jonson, a good friend of Shakespeare, says of him,
"And though thou hadst small Latin and less Greek."
Ultimo says Shakespeare was Italian and graduated in Latin and Greek. Maybe he just barely graduated because according to Ben Jonson, someone who actually knew Shakespeare (unlike any of us), says that he wasn't proficient in either language. And he's reportedly Italian.
2) If the story about Shakespeare being an Italian man who fled his nation because of religious persecution is true, then his sudden presence in England would be a cause of great talk (especially if he was of noble heritage). He couldn't have just hidden himself in England and pretended to be someone else son. Furthermore, the arrival of people from foreign lands would be a cause of more spectacle back then than today. Also, people do have accents, like Italian people. So how could Shakespeare just hide out in England without attracting any attention?
3) Shakespeare was also known by other English people. The fact that Ben Jonson was a good friend of Shakespeare and wrote an elegy on him and never once mentions his being Italian (in fact he would refute such evidence when he says Shakespeare knew barely any Latin or Greek) defies the argument that he was Italian.
Oh, and Ben Jonson was actually poking fun of his friend William by saying that Shakespeare wasn't very educated since he didn't know too much of Latin or Greek, again denying the claim that Shakespeare was Italian.
John Milton also wrote a sonnet on Shakespeare (who Milton probably saw when he was a child, since Shakespeare and Jonson liked to frequent a bar on Bread Street where I believe Milton grew up). Milton never once mentions he was Italian.
No one--not one person in England--comments on his being Italian? That's weird.....
4) If Shakespeare was Italian then why does he show such a fierce patriotism for England? All of his English plays glorify England ("This precious jewel set in the silver sea...."), and none boast of the greatness of his supposed Italian background.
5) People say he was not well educated so how could "the son of a glover" know so much about foreign lands and tongues? Well, um, from other people? Why couldn't he ask Ben Jonson, who wrote some plays for Shakespeare's acting company (Google "Shakespeare acting in Ben Jonson's plays"). The two were also friends. Was it so hard for Shakespeare to go, "Eh, buddy: I'm writing a play on Rome and was wondering if you can lend me a hand?"
And I'm sure Shakespeare had more than one friend to ask. And having an acting company or being actor and a writer, he must have met so many people, foreign and domestic, that could have added to his knowledge of the world. People back then also used to go to taverns and have fun, so he must have met foreigners back then.
And being perhaps the greatest writer of all time, is it so hard to assume that Shakespeare was a keen observer of people and their manners? This, coupled with his "high fantastical" imagination must have lent him what he needed to write what he did.
This information can be found in any good publication of his play(s) such as Oxford, Riverside, Arden or my preferred New Cambridge editions. Shakespeare was clearly an avid reader and was well aware of many current events which influenced his plays. As for early reading, the only source of certainty and interest which come to mind is Holinshead's Chronicles of England. It seems pretty clear that Shakespeare used this source for at least some significant portion of each of his history plays. I think that this, passion for history coupled with a childhood watching Catholic morality plays (which were later banned) helped Shakespeare to pioneer the History Play format for Elizabethan audiences.Quote:
Originally Posted by MANICHAEAN
Abdiel
Indulge me if I play the Devils Advocate.
1. The Chandros portrait is the firmest likeness of Shakespeare acknowledged as done from life, unlike the Droeshout engraving or the statue in the Holy Trinity Church in Stratford-upon-Avon. Look at it. Is the subject not too dark-skinned and foreign looking to be an English indigine of the time. Perhaps Italian or Jewish?
2. Seven of the eight Shakespeare children appear to be named after close relations or family friends. The exception was William. Refer to my previous mail on the possible reason for this.
3. If Shakespeare attended the local grammer, King's New School as is widely supposed, he would have attained a good education. Far from having "small Latin and less Greek" as per the charge of Ben Johnson, a tremendous amount of time would have been spent on reading, writing and reciting Latin ad infinitum. Through such exercises he would have learned every possible rhetorical device and ploy. According to "Stanley Wells and Gary Taylor, in their introduction to the Oxford edition of the "Complete Works", any grammer school pupil of the day would have recieved a more thorough grounding in Latin rhetoric and literature than most present-day holders of a university degree in classics.
3. During the plague years of 1592-3 when London's theatres were officially ordered shut, Shakespeare disappears from sight. Did he go to Italy with his drinking buddy Francesco Collu which would perhaps account for a rush of Italian plays upon his return - The Taming of the Shrew, The Two Gentlemen of Verona, The Merchant of Venice, Romeo and Juliet. Did not the effusions of the Italian Renaissance of this time reflect (like Shakespeare's works), a period of pessimism and nostalgia for the classical age?
4.How did he, as a possible Italian blend into the English scene. Easy. Look at today's second generation immigrants with South London or Scouse accents.
5. Your continued reference to Ben Johnson ignores the fact that as with so much of Shakespeare's life, little documentary evidence survives. For Ben Johnson himself, many of his most salient details remain unknown or uncertain e.g. the year and place of his birth, the identities of his parents, the number of his children. So if he knew the Bard and made reference to his love of "suppa de cotsa", then it is lost for eternity.
6. As well noted by yourself; John Milton was under age to be drinking with Will & Ben in the Bread Street Arms and anyway would have been too much of a gentleman to make politically incorrect racial comments on appearences or accents.
7. You really are on thin ice when bringing up his English patrotism. Next time you watch the Olympic Games kindly consider the fervour with which our second generation immigrant winners of gold so lovingly wrap themselves in the Union Jack.
If I have been offensive in any way in my reply, accept my apologies as it was not my intention. It just that as a writer, I love a good yarn and the prospect of a linkage between a man whose phrases rest at the very gates of heaven and an ancestor of the Godfather were too appealing to ignore.
Best regards.
Yup. That's just one reason it likely ISN'T of Shakespeare. The Chandos portrait is listed as "portrait of an unknown man", yet it remains a popular image of the man. No other image shows him with and earring. The recently unveiled Sanders and Cobbe portraits are much better contenders. The Sanders even has the same eye position, lip structure and earlobe of the Droeshout. I'd say my avatar, from a Van Mander(?) panel, stands a MUCH better chance of being painted of Shakespeare during his life than the Chandos does.Quote:
Originally Posted by MANICHAEAN
Ben was better educated than Will with a University education and was in a position to take a jab, but the grammar school education served Will just fine didn't it?Quote:
Originally Posted by MANICHAEAN
He was probably holed up with the young Henry Wriosthesley, his patron whom he wrote many sonnets and two epic poems for in this period. The Earle's tutor was the Italian John Florio and a source for some lampooning throughout Shakespeare's works. As for the Italian Renaissance effusing all over Europe, I guess we should conclude that they were all Italians. Not only did Italian Renaissance ideas spread to England, but so did the fashion, at least in the 1580's. So in the 1590's when Shakespeare was very busy, all the old clothes in the country looked Italian. Perfect for setting some plays there don't you think?Quote:
Originally Posted by MANICHAEAN
What makes more sense, to imagine that Shakespeare was somebody other than he has clearly been shown to have been from historical accounts AND legal records, to imagine he was somebody more like ourselves, maybe, Italian, maybe noble ... or simply to accept the evidence in front of us? Occam's razor states that 'the simplest explanation is most likely the truest'. Shakespeare wrote Shakespeare.