Daily puzzles/problems.

[MarkBastable]

Another straightforward puzzle:

A clock that was correct at midnight started losing three and a half minutes every hour. It stopped two hours ago, showing "13.11". Keeping in mind that it ran less than 24 hours, what is the correct time now?


A little after 15:57

[OrphanPip]

16:00 isn't it?

[billl]

I say 2PM (14:00)

---------------------------------------------------

It loses 7 min per 2 hours that pass.

At noon, it will read 12:00 - (6 x 0:07) = 11:18
At 2PM, it will read 11:18 + (2:00 - 0:07) = 11:18 + 1:53 = 13:11

[MarkBastable]

I say 2PM (14:00)

---------------------------------------------------

It loses 7 min per 2 hours that pass.

At noon, it will read 12:00 - (6 x 0:07) = 11:18
At 2PM, it will read 11:18 + (2:00 - 0:07) = 11:18 + 1:53 = 13:11


....you skimmed the question, didn't you?

[billl]

Oops! Yes, thank goodness, I did. (I just found out how difficult it is to design a logic puzzle from scratch.)

[Scheherazade]

I say 2PM (14:00)

---------------------------------------------------

It loses 7 min per 2 hours that pass.

At noon, it will read 12:00 - (6 x 0:07) = 11:18
At 2PM, it will read 11:18 + (2:00 - 0:07) = 11:18 + 1:53 = 13:11Bill, your method is correct; however, the answer is not right - yet. At this point, we need to take into account that it was 13.11 two hours ago, meaning that the correct time now is 16.00 (I think this is what Mark was implying by "skimming" as well).
16:00 isn't it?Your turn! :)

[billl]

Here's one in case Pip is too busy or something:

The Five Diners
(Sapphire, Scher, Serena, Mark, IAmNobody)

The five LitNetters listed above had soup and drinks at a round table.
Please answer the following questions:

1. In what order did they sit around the table? (i.e., Who sat where?)
2. What soup did each of them eat?
3. What did each of them drink?

Here are your clues:

The diners chose from the items on this very simple menu:


DRINKS: Beer, Wine, Water
SOUP: Tomato, Onion, Lentil


also...


Serena is allergic to onion soup, and can't sit next to a bowl of it (much less eat it).
Sapphire sat to the right of IAmNobody.
Scher and IAmNobody had the same thing to drink.
Mark and Serena each drank beer.
Both Serena and Sapphire had drinks that were different from the drinks had by the people next to them at the table.
The two people who had tomato soup were not side-by-side.
The person who had the onion soup sat between the only two wine drinkers.
Only one person had tomato soup with beer.

[Scheherazade]

Here's one in case Pip is too busy or something:

The Five Diners
(Sapphire, Scher, Serena, Mark, IAmNobody)

The five LitNetters listed above had soup and drinks at a round table.
Please answer the following questions:

1. In what order did they sit around the table? (i.e., Who sat where?)
2. What soup did each of them eat?
3. What did each of them drink?

Here are your clues:

The diners chose from the items on this very simple menu:


DRINKS: Beer, Wine, Water
SOUP: Tomato, Onion, Lentil


also...


Serena is allergic to onion soup, and can't sit next to a bowl of it (much less eat it).
Sapphire sat to the right of IAmNobody.
Scher and IAmNobody had the same thing to drink.
Mark and Serena each drank beer.
Both Serena and Sapphire had drinks that were different from the drinks had by the people next to them at the table.
The two people who had tomato soup were not side-by-side.
The person who had the onion soup sat between the only two wine drinkers.
Only one person had tomato soup with beer.




http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/6855/table0.jpg

[billl]

Scher, that looks good, but...






Sapphire sat to the right of IAmNobody.



...was meant to indicate that Sapphire is sitting in the seat next to IAmNobody (the seat immediately to IAmNobody's right)

[Scheherazade]

Gah, I have been reading that "Serena" :sosp:

Back to the drawing board!

[billl]

Gah, I have been reading that "Serena" :sosp:

Back to the drawing board!

I know, I apologize for that. I thought it would be fun to include some people that'd been involved in the thread most recently, but all the 'S' names confused me too when I was making it.

[Scheherazade]

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/9866/tablefp.jpg

[billl]

There, that is correct--didn't take you long to fix it after getting the names straight.

[Sapphire]

A nice puzzle and well done! (I couldn't figure it out :blush:)

[billl]

If you aren't familiar with that sort of puzzle, I just googled a website that looks like it might be a good place to learn about that style of puzzle:

http://www.logic-puzzles.org/

They are called logic puzzles, or logic grid puzzles.

EDIT: actually, that website starts off with more difficult puzzles than mine, and the tutorials don't seem very good...

[Scheherazade]

I like logic puzzles.

Here is another quick one:

HO = 23

KD = 15

TA = 21

UW = ?

[Greta Kin]

it is 44

[Scheherazade]

it is 44Correct. Your turn to ask a question.

[MarkBastable]

Correct. Your turn to ask a question.

Hang on. Why?

[billl]

Whoa, I was stumped, and it just now came to me in a flash. (add together the number representing each letter's ordinal position in the English alphabet, and you get the shown sum)

[Scheherazade]

Hang on. Why?What Bill said:
Whoa, I was stumped, and it just now came to me in a flash. (add together the number representing each letter's ordinal position in the English alphabet, and you get the shown sum)

Still Greta's turn :)

[Scheherazade]

Since Greta is not around:

I was nine times the age of my nephew six years ago and I am three times his age now. What are our current ages?

[Sapphire]

I think this asks for the use algabra

Lets take I for my age and N for my nephew's age.

statement 1] (I - 6) = 9*(N - 6)
statement 2] I = 3*N

Insert statement 2 in statement 1

3N - 18 = 9N - 54
6N = 36
N = 6

So my nephew is 6 years old and I am 18.

[Scheherazade]

You are on the right track but not exactly. Read the question and second half of your calculation again! :smilewinkgrin:

[MarkBastable]

Eight and twenty four now.

(Two and eighteen six years ago.)



------------------------

Here's a real life one....

I woke up in the dark on Tuesday and although I don't own a bedside clock, I ascertained that it was twenty-five past four. I went back to sleep.

I awoke in the morning to find that my colleague Adam had texted me our co-worker Abena's phone number at twenty-seven minutes past four.

Why?

[prendrelemick]

Did you acertain the time using your phone?
Are Adam and Abena next to each other on your speed dial?
Why am I asking these questions?

[billl]

Perhaps Abena called and Mark sort of woke up by the time it stopped ringing. He noted the time (perhaps he even checked the time on his still lit-up phone), and then went back to sleep, wondering at the ungodly hour and why he might've suddenly woke up like that. Abena calls Adam, and Adam texts Mark with Abena's number, so that he can call her back, perhaps thinking that Mark didn't want to answer an unknown number in the middle of the night. Mark sleeps right through the sound of the text's arrival.

[MarkBastable]

Adam hoped that his action would be to his advantage.

[Scheherazade]

So, why was Abena calling you so early (assuming it was 4.25 am)? Curious minds want to know.

Or maybe Abena was in the US or Australia (or some other country with different timezone)?

Anyhow, it is Bill's turn, yes?

[billl]

Whoa, did I get it right?


(Gotta go right now, but I will try to come up with something if it turns out I'm right. It might be a day or two, though, so someone else is certainly welcome to provide a puzzle if they want, and if I did happen to get it right...)

[MarkBastable]

No, not right. But everyone's heading in the right direction. Here's the answer...

Picking up my phone in the dark, my fingers naturally fall across two buttons, one of which brings up the contact list and the other of which makes a call - and it calls the first person on the contact list which, because they're in alphabetical order, is Adam. Apparently I've done this several times over the last couple of months, always in the middle of the night.

Having been woken yet again by an accidental call from me in the small hours, Adam texted me Abena's number, knowing that she would go above him alphabetically in the contact list, and she'd get all future sleep-disturbing calls.

Brilliant, really, especially at half past four in the morning.

[kasie]

IOU a puzzle - it's not a great one but it's (fairly) topical:

Why would a man who made a pair of spectacles in the summer not be expecting to spend Christmas working in Australia?

[Scheherazade]

Something to do with the fact that it is summer in Australia at that time of the year?

[kasie]

Hmmm - sort of.....

[prendrelemick]

Because he is a Cricketer?
If "a pair of spectacles" refer to two "ducks" or zeros (OO) in a match. Then any Cricketer who made them this summer, would not be touring Australia this winter.

[MystyrMystyry]

Because Christmas is a holiday? Who works on a holiday in Australia? Who works in Australia whenever they can avoid it, holiday or otherwise?

[kasie]

I was thinking of 'The Christmas Period', rather than the Day itself. Perhaps I should have said 'December/January' - sorry.

[Scheherazade]

Because Christmas is a holiday? Who works on a holiday in Australia?I was thinking of that but then again there is the Police and emergency services etc.
I was thinking of 'The Christmas Period', rather than the Day itself. Perhaps I should have said 'December/January' - sorry.Has it got something to do with heat?

[kasie]

No, nothing to do with heat.

Perhaps I have been a little too esoteric here, especially for our friends across the Atlantic, though I would have expected some of our regular Puzzlers to see the connection.

Maybe a clue is in order: think back to the puzzle about 'What comes between 0 and 40'....

[Scheherazade]

Kasie,

Just wondering whether you saw Mick's reply, which was stuck at the bottom of the previous page:
Because he is a Cricketer?
If "a pair of spectacles" refer to two "ducks" or zeros (OO) in a match. Then any Cricketer who made them this summer, would not be touring Australia this winter.

[kasie]

Many apologies, Scher and Mick - I didn't see that reply on the bottom of the previous page. Yes, Mick, you are right. I knew I could rely on a Yorkshireman to get it!

Have I ever told you I was once the most popular lass at Headingly? I had taken my little tranny to the match so that I could listen to the Test commentary while watching Yorks v Warwicks - men kept coming over and whispering, 'What's the latest, love?' Oh, what a day!

[prendrelemick]

I must think of one with international scope.

[MystyrMystyry]

So because of your inexactitude we're all effectively right?

Police and emergency services don't make spectacles, but two streakers could effectively make a pair of spectacles of themselves at the cricket, and if they happen to be a policeman and an ambo, then they may still be arrested and detained over the holiday period.

I'm confussed.


Here's a quickie:

One man made it but didn't need it.

One man needed it but didn't see it.

One man saw it but didn't want it.

What was it?

Give in?

It's made of wood


Also, only the second streaker would make a pair - if you're as confussed as me...

Aah!

I get it! Pen got it first and therefore won!

Sorry everyone - I'll put myself in self-imposed exile for one month for being so hazy

[prendrelemick]

Is it a coffin MM?

Don't apologise, I am struggling to think of anything worthy of this great thread. And anyway, I thought the explanation of a streaker making a spectacle was inspired.

Here is somethng really simple.


A second is longer than an hour, a month is longer than a year and an age is less than a week. how so?

[Scheherazade]

A second is longer than an hour, a month is longer than a year and an age is less than a week. how so?Is it the length of the words (number of the letter they have in them)?

[prendrelemick]

Correct. I'll try and do better next time.

[Scheherazade]

OK, the next one takes a little time:

My first is in BRICK but not in BUILD.

My second is in AMPLE but not in FILLED.

My third is in BANNER but not in SIGN.

My fourth is in FOOD but not in DINE.

My last is in STRUGGLE and also in WRESTLE.


What am I?

[MarkBastable]

Those things usually have a last line that gives a clue to the whole word, like....

My fifth is in girl but never in boy.
My whole is a song full of seasonal joy.


...otherwise there could be many workable answers that fitted the clues.


Still, given the possibility of a couple of answers, and without a definitive clue to go on, my guess is CABOT, the explorer.

[Scheherazade]

...otherwise there could be many workable answers that fitted the clues.Which is why it is challenging and fun.
Still, given the possibility of a couple of answers, and without a definitive clue to go on, my guess is CABOT, the explorer.A good guess but not the one I was looking for as in the questions it is implied that it is an object rather than a person:
What am I?

[prendrelemick]

On a topical note, it could be a carol, as Mark obviously knew.

[Scheherazade]

On a topical note, it could be a carol, as Mark obviously knew.That works, Mick.

Your turn!

[prendrelemick]

The history of my family is worth telling,
like an epic poem- with musical interludes of course,
and a chorus of singing and dancing girls.
It has its tragic aspects sure,
but plenty of laughs too.
I don't see them as much as I'd like, what with all my nocturnal interests.

Who am I?

[Sapphire]

Hrm...

Don't most Greek Tragedies/Comedies have a chorus with singing and dancing girls? :)

I guess his/her appatite for the night life is a big clue, but I cannot remember an ancient hero who lived like that...

[MarkBastable]

Bacchus?

I'd like to think it's more oblique than that though.

[prendrelemick]

No, but both in the right area.

[MarkBastable]

How about Selene, or any other version of a moon goddess from classical myth?

[prendrelemick]

Nope. No need to guess the clues are all there.

[Sapphire]

In the Oresteia trilogy by Aeschylus, which tells the story of the family of Agamemnon (king of Argos), the choir sings about Nyx

O mother Nyx, hear me, mother who gave birth to me as a retribution for the blind and the seeing."
Of course, that is just a general "oh mother" and not actually the "mater familias". And I don't think Agamemnon or Orestes had any particular taste for the night ...

Searching on ...

[MystyrMystyry]

Salome?

[Scheherazade]

Zeus?

[prendrelemick]

You are all circling the answer. Just a little more Inspiration needed.

The history of my family is worth telling,
like an epic poem- with musical interludes of course,
and a chorus of singing and dancing girls.
It has its tragic aspects sure,
but plenty of laughs too.
I don't see them as much as I'd like, what with all my nocturnal interests.

[billl]

Morpheus.

But of course not, that is not an answer to scorn a group of guessers over.

[MarkBastable]

Leslie Crowther.

[MystyrMystyry]

All of Greek theatre?

[Scheherazade]

Oliver (the Musical)


:smilewinkgrin:


Odysseus?

[kasie]

The Muses?

[prendrelemick]

Morpheus.

But of course not, that is not an answer to scorn a group of guessers over.No better sleep on it


Leslie Crowther.A cracker(jack) but wrong


All of Greek theatre?Good performance but wrong


Oliver (the Musical).


Consider yourself incorrect.


:smilewinkgrin:



Odysseus?A long way to go

The Muses?Correct! An inspired answer. Now which one has nocturnal interests?

[kasie]

Urania? Muse of Astronomy?

[prendrelemick]

Yes ! I had a feeling you'd get that one.
Your turn.

[kasie]

I've got a good Dictionary of Greek and Roman Mythology. :D

OK - another puzzle - how about this one:

Town A is a hundred miles from Town B. A straight railway line connects them. Every day at mid-day, a train leaves Town A and travels to Town B at 60mph. At the same time, a train leaves Town B and travels to Town A. This train is not so fast and can only travel at 40mph.

One day, a bird who has nothing better to do decides to fly with the train from town A until it meets the train from Town B and then hitch a lift back to Town A with the train from Town B. This super bird, who has certainly had his Weetabix for breakfast, flies at 70mph so, of course, overtakes the train from Town A and when he arrives at the train from Town B, he decides to fly back to the train from Town A instead of hitching the ride. When he gets back to the train from Town A, he's having so much fun, he turns round and flies back to the train from Town B - and so on. He keeps flying between the trains until they meet when he reverts to his original plan and hitches a lift on the Train from Town B back to Town A. He's exhausted - of course he is, he's flown - how far before the trains pass each other? (Yes, it's a double track, the trains don't crash into each other.) And what time did the trains pass? And what time did the bird get back to Town A?

[MystyrMystyry]

2:30pm and 3:30pm?

[kasie]

MM - One of the times is right, but which one and how is it right? And how far did the bird fly?

[Sapphire]

As for the bird: is it possible the answer is "0 miles", as it ended up back where it started?!

[MystyrMystyry]

This hurts the place where my brain should be

[prendrelemick]

i'd have a go if only I could find a pencil

[MarkBastable]

As for the bird: is it possible the answer is "0 miles", as it ended up back where it started?!

Only if you can convince me that when I go to work and back each day, I've been nowhere at all.

[faithosaurus]

1:00 pm and 2:30 pm?

[prendrelemick]

Here are my thoughts. You don't need maths hardly at all.

The trains will meet I hour after setting off.

At a point 60 miles from town A and 40 miles from town B

The bird must have travelled 70 miles in that hour (as it is going at 70 mph)

The bird arrives back at the sheduled train arrival time. (100 miles at 40 mph, which is 40 miles in 60 mins, which is 1.5 mins per mile, which is 150 mins total train journey time, which is 2hours and 30 mins

So

The trains pass at 1 O'clock
The bird flies 70 miles
and arrives back at 2.30

As got by faithosaurus

[kasie]

That's right, faithosaurus and Mick - and you're right, Mick, it isn't really a maths question, it just looks like one. I got it from my educational Psychology lecturer years ago - he used it as an example of 'set' in thinking (or is it 'sett'?), (eg it looks like a maths problem, therefore I must use a mathematical approach, rather than what's the real problem here.)

Over to you, Mick, but I must bow out here as I'm away in a computer-less home over Christmas - yes, they do still exist! Happy Christmas, everyone.

[prendrelemick]

Here is one I heard years ago, a simple maths question with an almost unbelievable answer


Take a rope and pass it once round the world. (say 25000 miles) Pull it tight, then let out 6feet. As this is magic floaty rope, how far above the surface of the earth will that 6 ft of slack allow it to float.

Now do the same with a tennis ball, (say 10 inches)

[MarkBastable]

Here is one I heard years ago, a simple maths question with an almost unbelievable answer


Take a rope and pass it once round the world. (say 25000 miles) Pull it tight, then let out 6feet. As this is magic floaty rope, how far above the surface of the earth will that 6 ft of slack allow it to float.



I know where this is going, and I too was amazed by the answer until someone pointed out to me the fallacy in the maths.

[MystyrMystyry]

I know of no maths fallacies in need of explanation. Is the answer a proportionately inverse square root of someone's ego/party pooping potentiality?

[billl]

I'm am gonna be reckless and not check this very basic equation (which I never use) just to get a seat-of-my-pants atmosphere going.

Circumference=2πr
(π is the symbol for pi, not the letter 'n')

So, next:

Circumference + 6 feet=2πx (We want to know x, ie. the new radius, in terms of r.)

2πr+6 = 2πx (then, divide both sides by 2)
πr+3 = πx (then divide by π)
r+3/π = x

3/π = 0.95, approximately

This makes me think that the rope would float a little less than a foot above the surface of the Earth.

However, Mark's post makes me think that this straight-forward approach might be a natural, but erroneous one. If that's the case, I will gladly be the sacrificial lamb we require for the demonstration of such, especially considering the absence of responsibility (for the next puzzle) that comes along with it.

[prendrelemick]

That is the answer I was looking for, but Mark has scuppered my confidence in it.
I reckon the answer is the same no matter what the circumference of the orb.

The next question could be, What's the mathematical fallacy involved here.?

[MarkBastable]

To be honest, I'm on shaky ground here. The first time I saw this problem I came up with the same answer as Bill, using the same method. Some time later I mentioned it to a guy who I consider better than me at maths, and he took it to bits and pointed out a fallacy - though I can't now remember what the hell it was.

However, I've looked online to find the debunking maths - and I can't. On the other hand there are plenty of sites that present the solution that mick was looking for... Here's one (http://www.oocities.com/collegepark/center/1539/p842.htm)(though it frames the problem by starting with the difference between the radii - three feet - and asking for the difference in the circumferences).

Looks pretty authoritative and convincing, doesn't it?

So maybe I just have to get past the following counterintuitive image:

I am standing on a plain in Kenya. I am holding two six-foot lengths or rope. At my feet there's a rope tight to the ground, stretching west and east to the horizon. There's also a tennis ball with a short piece of rope wrapped around it.

I cut the rope around the tennis ball and magically splice in one of my six foot lengths. I make the new rope into a circle on the ground and put the tennis ball in the middle.

I then cut the rope that's stretching both ways to the horizon, and splice in the other six foot length. Suddenly the rope along the ground floats - all the way to the horizon - in fact, all the way round the world. My six feet of rope has introduced slack along its 40000 miles. How much slack? Well, the rope floats at a height precisely equal to the distance from the tennis ball to the rope that surrounds it.

Put like that, it does seem unlikely, doesn't it? But, actually, that doesn't mean it's wrong. As I say, it might simply be counterintuitive. Me, I'm a great believer in the unarguable authority of maths so - despite the fact that this friend of mine once showed me what he considered to be flaw in it - I'm going to have to go with bill's calculation until someone shows me why it's wrong. It's the best explanation we have until we have a better one.

And that, as we so often say in a different context on this forum, is what science is.

[MystyrMystyry]

The ropey floaty rope? As a physical impossibility and physics being a branch of maths, we could discount that one

Tides? Deep sea waves? Moon's gravitational pull?

Mountains? And snow and ice to change the tension of our fallacious measuring instrument?

Equator and Poles? get a lot of crackle and sputter there


Forgive me - maths isn't my strong point - in fact it's my weakest. I think we're all going to be gobsmacked when its revealed, hopefully. I love it when axioms and stuff get shattered

[prendrelemick]

To be fair it only works with an imaginary earth and imaginary rope.

[billl]

I have a feeling that the whole thing might've been more daunting if we had been provided the circumference of the Earth as measured in feet, and been therefore tempted to figure it out that way. With calculators, it would've been easy, I guess, but after all of those big numbers, the result might've been surprising. But I think Mark is right about the surprise really being about how the radius doesn't matter. I checked a site last night (soon after my post...) and saw a less succinct description than the one in the site Mark linked to, but it had a section with a bolded heading mentioning this fact.

I guess another example would be one's belt. If someone's waist were 36 inches around (mine is significantly less, but close enough to do the thought experiment, ahem), then tripling the length of the belt would lead to the same 1 foot of hovering space.

And, actually, this puzzle has just now given me second thoughts about how significant a few extra inches around the waist might be--easing into this only 'slightly' larger size might be a surprisingly more roomy endeavor than I had imagined. Or have I noticed that before?

Anyhow, I'll provide another puzzle, something probably less stunning, I'm afraid.

============ ============ =========== ============ ============ ===========


A man has a large, empty, clear, unmarked punch bowl that can hold exactly 8 liters of water. He has two filled bottles of water that can hold exactly 500 ml each. He also has another much larger container that can hold up to 20 liters, but markings on the side of this container indicate that it has exactly four liters of water inside of it. He also has a grease pencil which can write on glass.

The man would like to make markings on the side of the punch bowl to indicate the levels at which it would contain 500 ml, 1000 ml, 1500 ml, 2000 ml, 2500 ml, etc. Using only what is described above, how many such markings can the man make?

[MystyrMystyry]

Having given this quite some considerable thought over the past few seconds - ten?

[billl]

Thanks for kicking the speculation off for us! Sorry, though, more marks can be made.

(Also, since this is a puzzle that I made up real quick, I have to admit that there could be more than one correct answer, depending on some information that I hadn't thought to provide.)

[MystyrMystyry]

Aah - he may also be able to submerge the two (empty) 500ml bottles to increase the range by ah two, is it?

Therefore 12?

(though the accuracy of these may depend on the size and shape of his fingertips)

[billl]

Maybe! Well, yes, actually that is absolutely correct IF you are referring to the following markings:

500, 1000, 1500, 2000, 2500, 3000, 3500, 4000, 4500, 5000, 5500, 6000

UNLESS something....

Your answer is the one that I had in mind when I typed up this puzzle, but I have since come up with another possible answer. Since these puzzles are sometimes difficult to find or make up (in my opinion) why don't we let the speculation on this one continue.

Can anyone think of a way in which this scenario might permit a marking or markings beyond the 6000 ml level?

[MystyrMystyry]

A clenched fist comes to mind.

Were he to remove 500ml and insert his hand until it displaced 500ml, make a mark on his wrist or forearm, remove, repeat process with other hand, reinsert 500ml and two empty bottles and one hand, then the other, making final marking on the container with pen in his mouth taking it up to fourteen

(yes, it would all require a little dexterity, but where there's a will...)

[billl]

A clenched fist comes to mind.

Were he to remove 500ml and insert his hand until it displaced 500ml, make a mark on his wrist or forearm, remove, repeat process with other hand, reinsert 500ml and two empty bottles and one hand, then the other, making final marking on the container with pen in his mouth

(yes, it would all require a little dexterity, but where there's a will...)

I think that is a great idea, and what you describe would get you two more markings, thus reaching 7000. I suppose 7500 could be reached by using a foot, provided the shape of the foot and the bowl allow for the foot to be conveniently marked, and the bowl could fit the bottles, hands, and foot.

ANYHOW, I had also realized that the "much larger" container that I introduced (because I didn't want it to be something that could be submerged) ended up as something that the bowl might be submerged in. That is, if all of the water is put into the larger container, then the punch bowl could be submerged, marking off the gradations as it is lowered inside the larger container (which the puzzle mentions is already marked). There are problems with this, though. The material of the bowl would likely displace more than the plastic of a typical 500 ml bottle, which would throw things off. Also, the bowl might not fit in a narrow "much larger" container, or the "much larger" container might be VERY wide and be shorter than the bowl.

SO, on more than one account, your "clenched fists" get us 6500 ml and 7000 ml, and probably to the extra 7500 ml measurement, thus beating the original answer I had formulated (12) AND ALSO achieving a greater plausibility than the "perhaps allowable, but heavily-hypothetical" solution I later conceived.

That means you win, you are correct!, Mystyr, and are therefore tasked with the responsibility of presenting us with the next puzzle.

[MystyrMystyry]

Hey, cool, I did something inadvertantly smart - haven't been there in a long time...

As I was going to St Ives
I met a man with seven wives
The seven wives had seven sacks
The seven sacks had seven cats
The seven cats had seven kits

How many were going to St Ives?

[faithosaurus]

30? Perhaps?

[MystyrMystyry]

Nope

Actually, this is only a yes or nope problem - not even cold, tepid, hot clues I'm afraid - when it's solved you'll see why

[faithosaurus]

Oh! Is it 1?

[MystyrMystyry]

Damn if I haven't been undermined by the girl's sly cunning twice in one morning before breakfast!

Correctomondo, Babe - you win the jackpot of three million dollars billl has so generously offered (though it may take some time to pry it from his cold dead hands - but with the shrewdness in evidence of your womanly wiles, hmmm...)

Yes, I was going to St Ives - the others were going the other way - but before faithosaurus posts a new question I think it's only fair we learn how many were coming from St Ives

[faithosaurus]

Yay!

Since some of the items weren't people...perhaps 22?

[MarkBastable]

Damn if I haven't been undermined by the girl's sly cunning twice in one morning before breakfast!

Correctomondo, Babe - you win the jackpot of three million dollars billl has so generously offered (though it may take some time to pry it from his cold dead hands - but with the shrewdness in evidence of your womanly wiles, hmmm...)

Yes, I was going to St Ives - the others were going the other way - but before faithosaurus posts a new question I think it's only fair we learn how many were coming from St Ives

See post #8 in this thread, and a few following it.

[MystyrMystyry]

Funny, sure I'd read them all.

Well I guess no-one gets their hands on his moolah then (nothing new there)


Sorry Buddy - Go for it anyway, while no-one's watching (posting a new problem, I mean)

[faithosaurus]

Then it must be 29...

Well, now I must think of one. Hmm..

Hopefully no one has posted this yet:

Romeo and Juliet are found dead on the floor in a bedroom. When they were discovered, there were pieces of glass and some water on the floor. The only furniture in the room is a shelf and a bed. The house in is a remote location, away from everything except for the nearby railway track. What caused the death of Romeo and Juliet?

[MystyrMystyry]

Ah hah, a long overdue retwisting of the Bard's tale - and not before time

Firstly the glass has something to do with the lover's situation? But lack of blood would negate that. So something has broken as the result of another cause - 'tis it the yonder window through which what light breaks?

Or a bottle? A bottle that had contained the water?

Or had the water arrived from somewhere else? A hole in the ceiling perhaps? Or in a different container altogether?

Or had it been in a different form possibly? Unto ice?

[kasie]

A train on the nearby railway track thundered past; the vibrations caused the bottle of poison on the shelf to fall; it smashed as it fell to the floor; R&J ingested the poison/fumes: R&J died. Spilled poison looks like water - DO NOT TOUCH IT.

[MystyrMystyry]

Possible Kas, but the problem clearly states water, not something that looks like water.

Your explanation sounds a little confident however, as though it were the standard answer for a similar poser. Though this could be enough to provide the missing clues.

Sympathetic oscillation from a train. Knocking something from the shelf - perhaps a large vase. Did it perchance also knock the shelf over also?

Large heavy vase of water falls on R's fat head - he is knocked out as J (untrained in first aid and therefore lacking knowledge of the correct position to place said noggin) lunges toward him catastrophically.

R dies of general head inuries, J carks it from an enormous oaken Shelf strikes a pressure point in the top of her spine (or her head to make it a poetic neatness)

[prendrelemick]

Sorry Faithosaurus, we've had this one before too, somewhere back deep in the mists of time on this thread. Unless your's is a different solution.

[kasie]

So we have - it was Jack and Jill last time, wasn't it? I thought it sounded vaguely familiar - but I like MM's scenario!

[faithosaurus]

A train on the nearby railway track thundered past; the vibrations caused the bottle of poison on the shelf to fall; it smashed as it fell to the floor; R&J ingested the poison/fumes: R&J died. Spilled poison looks like water - DO NOT TOUCH IT.

Well if this was the solution to the last one, then it is not right. So perhaps it's somewhat different?

[MystyrMystyry]

I guess it's the law of averages - you get a hopscotch of mathematicians all coming through the grinder of a limited number of institutions where they were instructed by another hopscotch of mathematicians...

And then we wonder why some problems are similar to others - it's because their cogs are all tuned by the same mechanics


Faithosaurus? You need to tell us what elements are near or far

Is the train wobble correct? The glass container? The shelf? The window?

[faithosaurus]

Well, I'll tell you this: Romeo and Juliet are not necessarily people. And kasie's idea about the train is correct, but there's no poison.

[MystyrMystyry]

For some reason I'm getting this idea of a skylight covered in snow (seasonal) which came crashing in, the snow melting causing water and a slipping mishap

I'm also getting the idea that the train caused it, and that the shelf was used to climb - or perch on - it

Rom or Jul a bird?

Jul or Rom a cat?

[faithosaurus]

Nopers. Try again.

[MystyrMystyry]

Does 'not necessarily be people' mean that there's an equal chance that they are, in fact and effect, people?

Is the glass important?

[MystyrMystyry]

Hold on - are they chimpanzees, monkeys, or similar (as distinguished from being fully 'like us' ?

[faithosaurus]

They are not people and nothing like people, to be more clear. The glass is important.

[MystyrMystyry]

Mice? Cockroaches?

Could you just tell me quickly if I've been moving so far away from what Kasie thought was reasonable, it's prepoposterous?

[faithosaurus]

Heh, you're not even close. If the glass had not broken, R and J would be alive.

[MystyrMystyry]

R and J were in the glass vase? Or on the skylight - though you seemed to indicate that that's not the case...

[faithosaurus]

You must tell me what exactly R and J were. And no to the skylight.

[MystyrMystyry]

GOLDFISH!!!


In a GOLDFISH BOWL!!!

[prendrelemick]

phew! at last.

[MystyrMystyry]

I's got two legs from me hips
To the ground, and when I
Moves 'em they walks around,
And when I lifts 'em they climb
The stairs, and when I shaves
'Em they ain't got hairs

Who is I?


Just Googled 'I's got two legs'
It came up Terry Gilliam
So that was pretty ****weak
wasn't it?

[prendrelemick]

I'm looking at limb like shaped letters in certain words.

Also this "I" character is significant, I think.

[MystyrMystyry]

No, Mick, sorry, bad news, the problem is, in fact, wrong. I was told by a tea drinking B.S.er (the tea drinking's irrelevant - except he B.S.ed me about the milk getting scolded if you put it in last)* that the answer was Margaret Thatcher.

It never occurred to me to research the origin of the thing until now. I knew it was Monty Python, and the insoucient way he dropped the 'bombshell' at an impressionable age gave me no reason to doubt it.

So it seems it actually appeared in the Papperbok originally, and later performed by Gilliam on stage, neither with the Who am/is I? additition

The explanation, if you can call it that, was to do with the layout of No 10 as featured in Yes, Prime Minister.


I'll come up with something better, or hopefully someone else will (hint hint), when I find something gooder


*I have only suspicion, but as I'm yet to hear this from anyone else, I am prepared to be corrected

[prendrelemick]

Here is a quick one then.

The young Einstien, the young Shakespeare and the young Beethoven, were taking a balloon trip together in the Alps. The Balloon's pilot turned to them and said. "I'm sorry gentlemen, we are caught in a contrary wind and shall soon be dashed to pieces on that mountain. Our only chance is for one of us jump out, sacrificing himself to save the others. we can then clear the mountain and land on the other side. I would do it myself, but only I can land us safely. As it cannot be me, I must make the choice who is to jump.

The three young geniuses began to plead for their lives.

"I am close to writing an equation that will lay bare the innermost secrets of the universe" said Einstien.

"I am full of words that will discribe and explain the human condition" said Shakespeare.

"And I have music in me that will lighten the hearts' of millions of people" said Beethoven.

When each man had spoken the pilot shook their hand and hugged them. "Gentlemen." Said the pilot, "Time is up, and I now know who must jump."

Who did he choose?.

Who would you choose? Give reasons

[billl]

Shakespeare spelled "describe" incorrectly, but please, oh please, don't let me be the next winner, so quickly and easily...

[prendrelemick]

Funny, I often spell that word wrongly too.

[billl]

phew!

[MystyrMystyry]

The three geniuses combined their genius and mutineed - throwing out the pilot?

[MarkBastable]

So the pilot says, "Listen - plays and music - that's a lot of work. But an equation? Even if it's complicated you could scribble it down."

And Einstein says, "I can see where you're going with this. To be honest, the equation is so short, you could memorise it. And once you give it to other scientists, they'll figure out why it's right. So..." He swings a leg over the edge of basket. "...e equals m c squared. Toodle-pip."

And with that, he tips himself into the void and plummets earthwards.

"Right," says the pilot, turning to the other passengers. "E equals any squared. Remember that."

"No," says Shakespeare, "he said e equals empty stares."

"No, no," says Beethoven. "It was soh-la-ti equals something or other..."

"Whatever," says the pilot. "He was the fattest anyway."

[MystyrMystyry]

Einstein failed high school maths and had a ways to go before e equalled mc2

Shakespeare and Beethoven were already proven precocious prodigies by the same age

So, actuality preceding potentiality, Einstein is the one to get the boot


But!

If responsibilty were to be taken for the link to the most instantaneous deaths and mutations caused by the scientific thought leading to the first nuclear bombs (but also bringing to a quick end the Amero-Austro-Nippon war which is far more important) then he should be kept

Shakepeare's best works ahead of him and the reprinting of which will cause the destruction of uncountable acres upon acres of forest and wild habitat, but will contribute more to political debate and ultimately lead to the foundation of modern democracy, and also bring great joy and reason to live, should also be allowed to live

Beethoven who also had great works ahead of him would prove to be the cornerstone of the modern record industry, the success and popularity of the electronic synthesiser, and was also known for his moody temper tantrums and should get flicked promptly forthwith

But!

Beethoven has provided even more joy to both the world's (illiterate and literate alike) populations and created a unification of the human heart worldwide moreso than Shakespeare, and his tunes last intact in the mind, where Shakespeare's monologues are regularly misquoted and meanings misinterpreted

Shakespeare didn't even care about the publishing of his works because 'the play's the thing' (though that may well be a misquote/misprint), and theatre and poetry were around long before him, and carried on long after regardless, with limited influence

Einstein however had a direct influence on our modern way of life - television, cellphones, computers, the Space Project (Teflon!), airconditioning, solar panels, refrigeration, and virtually everything including Social Philosophy which has had a profound effect of the modern Welfare Utopian State, which although a handful abuse and fail to apreciate it is still a major advance on anything before (especialy the states that relied on slavery)

Ipso Facto Shakespeare must be the Onion!

[billl]

Well, if Beethoven would just get them all working on a sing-along, it might "lighten everyone's hearts" enough to get them all over the mountain.

[prendrelemick]

Einstien was only a few years ahead of his time, perhaps he would not be missed so much. Beethoven had others of equal brilliance working in his field. Shakespeare was unique, but a poor speller.

Anyway, Mark was sort of right when he said Einstien was the fattest. When the Pilot hugged each man, he was estimating who was the fattest or heaviest - the only criteria that mattered at that moment. So the answer is "the heaviest."

Mark's go I think.

[Scheherazade]

Happy New Year to one and all!


This thread was started with the assumption that everyone who contributed would refrain from resorting to internet shortcuts

and

I would like to believe that this is a promise we all keep at all times.

Please deal with your personal differences via PMs.

[Scheherazade]

Mark's go I think.Still Mark's turn...

[MarkBastable]

o t t f f ?

[prendrelemick]

So the pilot says, "Listen - plays and music - that's a lot of work. But an equation? Even if it's complicated you could scribble it down."

And Einstein says, "I can see where you're going with this. To be honest, the equation is so short, you could memorise it. And once you give it to other scientists, they'll figure out why it's right. So..." He swings a leg over the edge of basket. "...e equals m c squared. Toodle-pip."

And with that, he tips himself into the void and plummets earthwards.

"Right," says the pilot, turning to the other passengers. "E equals any squared. Remember that."

"No," says Shakespeare, "he said e equals empty stares."

"No, no," says Beethoven. "It was soh-la-ti equals something or other..."

"Whatever," says the pilot. "He was the fattest anyway."


Now, last night I couldn't sleep and my mind was flying hither and thither and began to imagine Einstien's fall to earth.

As he accelerates away from the gondola he notices a bird watching him, and it comes to him in a flash, that the time taken to fall will vary relative to the position of an observer. For him time will, relatively speaking, slow down and if he could achieve the speed of light it will, for him, stop altoge...

As for ottff, I'm thinking text-speak.

[MarkBastable]

As for ottff, I'm thinking text-speak.

Nope. I first came across this one in the seventies, way before text-speak. I guarantee that not a single person reading this will fail to understand the answer the moment they see it.

[misterreplicant]

Hmm. That's an innovative one! :D S S E N T... E T T F F S S E N T... how far do you want this? lol.

[MarkBastable]

Yep.

One Two Three Four Five Six.....

Your turn.

[misterreplicant]

Yep.

One Two Three Four Five Six.....

Your turn.

Thanks...

I never was, am always to be,
None ever saw me, nor ever will,
And yet I am the confidence of all
Who live and breathe on this terrestrial ball.
Who do you think I am?

[prendrelemick]

My thoughts so far.

The first two lines could be "The future" but I can't resolve it with "the confidence of all".

[misterreplicant]

"The future"

Close enough, but "tomorrow" would have been good too.

Your turn.

[prendrelemick]

How is everybody on cyphers? The key is 6


Kmyyski, bmmo dgmv.

[prendrelemick]

Here's a clue. or Gsys'd a kxns.

[billl]

Correct, good show.



(Using your hint, and guessing at the gaps. Couldn't get the 6 to help...)

[prendrelemick]

Well done Billl

The cypher was something made up in 5 mins (though probably not original)

Write out the alphabet in a grid pattern, starting a new line after every 6 letters.

abcdef
ghijkl
mnopqr
stuvwx
yx

Then rewrite the alphabet vertically over the original letters to get the subtitutes.
So, a=a b=g c=m. and so on.

[billl]

Ah, thanks!

Mark mentioned Sgt. Pepper's earlier. I have a trivia question about another of their albums (a two-record set):

How many grooves are on the original pressing of The Beatles' "White Album"?

http://www.ispauldead.com/mediac/450_0/media/beatles-rare-white-a-lg.gif http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/750633/2/istockphoto_750633-grooves.jpg

[prendrelemick]

Without any research at all, say 20 tracks, averageing 4 minutes each, thats 80 minutes, plus start and finishing grooves and 30 seconds between tracks, say another 10 minutes, equals 90 minutes. The record turns at 33 1/3 revs per minute, so 90x33.33 would be my nongoogled guess . Now where's my calculator?

[MarkBastable]

I'd say four - one on each side.

However, I have a faint memory of a mischievous little trick the Beatles played at some point in their career, where they pressed a record with two grooves on one side of an album, sort of intermeshed, so that what you heard depended on where you happened to put down the needle.

Then again, that might have been The Residents.

[billl]

I hope it was the Residents, because the answer I was looking for was four.

[prendrelemick]

This one comes from a school fundraiser quiz night, many years ago.

The idea is to guess what the initials stand for, every example has a number in it.

So, 3 CITF, would be, Three coins in the fountain.

10 DS
221a BS
50 WTLYL
20000 LUTS
T 4 T
P 6-5000
15 MOF
F 451
TJ5
HMTHA 3 TS


That last one is from that Quiz night. (Someone on our team actually got it.)

[jajdude]

10 DS Downing Street
221a BS --Baker Street
50 WTLYL - Ways to Leave your lover
20000 LUTS leagues under the sea
T 4 T the four tops ?
P 6-5000
15 MOF --minutes of fame
F 451 Fahrenheit
TJ5 the jackson
HMTHA 3 TS


Will think. Did these things in class before. Students liked it.

[MarkBastable]

This one comes from a school fundraiser quiz night, many years ago.

The idea is to guess what the initials stand for, every example has a number in it.

So, 3 CITF, would be, Three coins in the fountain.

10 DS
221a BS
50 WTLYL
20000 LUTS
T 4 T
P 6-5000
15 MOF
F 451
TJ5
HMTHA 3 TS


That last one is from that Quiz night. (Someone on our team actually got it.)

Tea for Two
Pennsylvania 6-5000

All I can up with for the last one is

How many toes has a three-toed sloth?

which, if it isn't right, ought to be.

[prendrelemick]

I am agog!

Yes the three-toed sloth is correct.

Fair warning: If no one posts something else, I've loads of these, and am not afraid to use them!

[jajdude]

Some more then:

1. 64 S on a CB
2. 1 P for a FT
3. 11 P on a FT
4. 90 D in a R A
5. 7 W of the W
6. 32 D F at which W F
7. 1 H on a U
8. 3 B M (SHTR)
9. 18 H on a G C
10. 88 K on a P
11. 26 L in the A
12. 12 S of the Z
13. 24 H in a D
14. 1000 W (what a P is W)
15. 54 C in a D (with the J's)
16. 1001 T of the A N
17. 29 D in F in a L Y
18. 57 H V
19. 9 P in the S S
20. For Americans only: 200 D for P G in M
21. For everyone but Americans: 14 D in a F
22. 13 S on the A F (also for Americans)
23. 40 D and N of the G F
24. 1 W on a U

[kasie]

Some more then:

1. 64 S on a CB 64 Squares on a Chess Board
2. 1 P for a FT
3. 11 P on a FT 11 Players on a Football Team
4. 90 D in a R A 90 Degrees in a Right Angle
5. 7 W of the W 7 Wonders of the World
6. 32 D F at which W F 32 degrees Fahrenheit at which Water Freezes
7. 1 H on a U 1 Horn on a Unicorn
8. 3 B M (SHTR) 3 Blind Mice (See How They Run)
9. 18 H on a G C 18 Holes on a Golf Course
10. 88 K on a P 88 Keys on a Piano
11. 26 L in the A 26 Letters in the Alphabet
12. 12 S of the Z 12 Signs of the Zodiac
13. 24 H in a D 24 Hours in a Day
14. 1000 W (what a P is W)
15. 54 C in a D (with the J's) 54 Cards in a Deck (with the Jokers)
16. 1001 T of the A N 1001 Tales of the Arabian Nights
17. 29 D in F in a L Y 29 Days in February in a Leap Year
18. 57 H V 57 Heinz Varieties
19. 9 P in the S S 9 Planets in the Solar System
20. For Americans only: 200 D for P G in M
21. For everyone but Americans: 14 D in a F 14 Days in a Fortnight
22. 13 S on the A F (also for Americans) 13 Stripes on the American Flag
23. 40 D and N of the G F 40 Days and Nights of the Great Flood
24. 1 W on a U 1 Wheel on a Unicycle

Still puzzling over 2, 14 and 20.

[billl]

2. 1 point for a free throw

[MarkBastable]

200 dollars for passing Go in Monopoly.

[prendrelemick]

A thousand words (what a picture is worth) I'll admit, my son got that one.

[billl]

This is like the end of The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly.

[prendrelemick]

Can I be Clint?

[kasie]

Are you mean, moody and mysterious with chiselled good looks? Oh, and you'll have to change your wellies - wrong style for the rough, tough West.

[prendrelemick]

I'll be the Ugly one's donkey then.

[billl]

Hey, Mick! :mad: You know what you are? Just a--actually, let this be a segue:

NOTE: I have altered the puzzle, please check the next post. I'll keep the old version here as a Quote, for the benefit of anyone who had been struggling with it and wanted to check what has been changed (a couple of phrases in the fourth paragraph of the story). Sorry!



Puppies and Kittens and The Overcrowded Academy


There was a very busy animal shelter that had many puppies and kittens. At night, when the staff was gone, some of the older dogs and cats were in the habit of teaching special classes to the younger animals. They created a school called The Night-Time Animal Academy. There were courses in Human Behavior, Door Opening, Traffic, Cat-Dog Relations, etc. There was, in fact, a very determined effort to focus on a common agenda, and common topics, and to have kittens and puppies studying side-by-side in the same classes. It was an enlightened vision of a future in which cats and dogs would be treated equally.

However, there were too many puppies and kittens, and not enough wise old teachers among the pets in the shelter. Unfortunately, the classes were all full, and the puppies and kittens had to submit applications and take entrance exams.

At the start of one session, one rather proud little puppy that had not been accepted into the The Night-Time Animal Academy noticed something: kittens were being admitted to classes in the school much more often than the puppies were. There was quite a controversy, and kittens and puppies felt a little tense towards each other in the classes, not to mention outside of class. Were the cat teachers showing a preference towards kittens?

There was an investigation, and it turned out (rather surprisingly) that in each class, puppies were actually being admitted a little more frequently than kittens, although the discrepancy was slight and attributable to random variation. It didn't matter if the teacher was a cat or a dog, the puppies were never turned away any more frequently than the kittens applying for the class. The teachers were relieved at the news, but also realized that something still had to be done to get more puppies into classes.

What was the real explanation behind the controversy? What sort of solution would the teachers most likely come up with?

[billl]

Sorry, I should have worded that little puzzle a little differently...

Here's a corrected version (I was using the word 'frequently' in a misleading way):




Puppies and Kittens and The Overcrowded Academy


There was a very busy animal shelter that had many puppies and kittens. At night, when the staff was gone, some of the older dogs and cats were in the habit of teaching special classes to the younger animals. They created a school called The Night-Time Animal Academy. There were courses in Human Behavior, Door Opening, Traffic, Cat-Dog Relations, etc. There was, in fact, a very determined effort to focus on a common agenda, and common topics, and to have kittens and puppies studying side-by-side in the same classes. It was an enlightened vision of a future in which cats and dogs would be treated equally.

However, there were too many puppies and kittens, and not enough wise old teachers among the pets in the shelter. Unfortunately, the classes were all full, and the puppies and kittens had to submit applications and take entrance exams.

At the start of one session, one rather proud little puppy that had not been accepted into the The Night-Time Animal Academy noticed something: kittens were being admitted to classes in the school much more often than the puppies were. There was quite a controversy, and kittens and puppies felt a little tense towards each other in the classes, not to mention outside of class. Were the cat teachers showing a preference towards kittens?

There was an investigation, and it turned out (rather surprisingly) that in each class, the puppies were actually more likely to be admitted than the kittens were, although the discrepancy was slight and attributable to random variation. It didn't matter if the teacher was a cat or a dog, puppies were never more likely to be turned away than kittens applying for the class. The teachers were relieved at the news, but also realized that something still had to be done to get more puppies into classes.

What was the real explanation behind the controversy? What sort of solution would the teachers most likely come up with?

[jajdude]

Well done above posters. Did not know the answers myself, just copied the Qs from somewhere.

[prendrelemick]

Billl. It seems a direct contradiction to me, but there is a slight difference in the words chosen. "Puppies were more likely to be admitted." "Kittens were being admitted."

Perhaps the Puppies had a high drop out rate.

Perhaps, I'm barking up the wrong tree.

[billl]

This one is admittedly sort of a stumper, and I gradually realized that one's way of describing the situation might inadvertently mask the subtle, underlying nuance. (I have based the puzzle on an actual problem that happened in an actual college.) And, yes, stick with that particular tree...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just to clarify (sort of a hint, but just as much a leg-up to the English language), let me mention the following...

Total enrollment in the Academy:
70% kittens, 30% puppies

Enrollment in particular classes:
"Human Behavior": 35% kittens that applied were accepted, 41% puppies were accepted
"Traffic": 40% kittens that applied were accepted, 45% of puppies that applied were accepted
etc.

Another class not mentioned in the original presentation(s):
"Tail-Smelling: Etiquette and Appreciation"

[Tallon]

maybe cats are more popular than dogs, so cats were finding homes more often and having to drop of out of class. or maybe there is less dogs in the shelter and so they are more likely to be admitted when they apply but there were less applications.

[billl]

maybe cats are more popular than dogs, so cats were finding homes more often and having to drop of out of class. or maybe there is less dogs in the shelter and so they are more likely to be admitted when they apply but there were less applications.

Actually, no animals are dropping out of classes. The number of puppies vs. kittens in the shelter isn't a factor, and they are all trying to get into classes.

And, for simplicity's sake (although it doesn't really matter, I guess), let's say that each animal is applying to just one class.

[billl]

OK, to sum up (I can't tell if people are having a tough time, or just haven't been online, or if my description sucks--so just in case):


Significantly more kittens are being accepted into classes at the Academy. (Controversy!!!)
For each class, the dogs that apply for the class are AT LEAST AS LIKELY to be accepted as a kitten applying for the class.


What was the real explanation behind the controversy?
What sort of solution would the teachers most likely come up with?

[kasie]

'Positive' discrimination?

[billl]

I don't think so, kasie, but I'm not sure exactly what that might mean. It is certainly the case that the teachers judging the applications are not discriminating, one way or the other, for or against any of the submitted applications.

[prendrelemick]

Like Tallon said, the intake reflected the pool it was drawn from. There are more kittens than pups making applications.

[billl]

OK, one more thing: There are an equal number of kittens and puppies applying, and an equal number of applications from each of them (kittens and puppies).

Ex.

100 kittens (each applying once), 100 puppies (each applying once)
58 kittens accepted to classes at the academy this session.
42 puppies accepted to classes at the academy this session.

5 classes, 20 students each.

for each class, puppies and kittens were rejected at the same rate.



(Note: I'll let this example override the example statistics I gave earlier--not because the previous example in which puppies were accepted more often wouldn't work just as well, but because the math would be more difficult, and I've just crafted a solution based on the simpler example featured here.)

I hope this makes it easier to think about the problem--sorry I didn't mention that the number of applicants from each group (kittens and puppies) could be equivalent.



Like Tallon said, the intake reflected the pool it was drawn from. There are more kittens than pups making applications.

I am just going to say that Tallon didn't have it right. ;-)
No snark here, either... Just a last bit of caginess.

[billl]

Please note, at 6:37 I made a FINAL ALTERATION to the above quote, which is now accurate and (I hope) clear!

[MarkBastable]

How are the applications made? By post? In person? I mean, if the assessors are human and allergies to dogs are more prevalent than allergies to cats, that might do it. Or, however inclusive the authoritative creatures involved, it could be that the proportional entry of kittens and puppies reflects the relative numbers of cats and dogs on the panel.

[billl]

Mark, the teachers doing the deciding are elders among the cats and dogs in the shelter. An even mix, let's say. There could still be some inadvertent bias in some form, of course--but they make no distinction among candidates and judge fairly among the applicants to the classes that they are teaching. In each class, the kitten has as good of a chance as the puppy applying in the next application folder--and the rejection and acceptance rates reflect this.

EDIT: I now realize that, with 5 classes, there can't be an "even mix" of cat and dog teachers admitting students into their classes. (EDIT: actually there COULD be, if each class had an even number of assessors, as Mark was probably imagining--whereas I had imagined a sole instructor doing that duty.) This is not a relevant point in the 'puzzle', however, and could be corrected by doubling the number of classes and teachers and students (which I should have done, in retrospect, sorry for the improvised and ramshackle nature of this thing.)

The applications are judged without unfairness and without favorability towards kitten or puppy, in the case of any particular class.

[MarkBastable]

Given that this is based on a real issue that came up at your college, would the problem work just as well if you'd chosen, say, elephants and giraffes? In other words, we're not looking for something cute about dogs and cats, right?

[billl]

Right, this puzzle is based on an interesting aspect of statistical evaluation. Nothing about cuteness, or animals being particularly quirky. (The 'real world' issue involved human males and females, apparently.)

Btw, it didn't happen at the school I went to, I just read about it this past week, happening on some other U.S. university at some point.

[MarkBastable]

Right - so we have very few elements to consider.


1. some inherent attribute that differs between the two groups of students
2. some inherent aspect of the process of enrolment that favours one of the groups of students (possibly but not necessarily because of 1)
3. some flaw in the lens of the data analysis that skews the perception of what's going on in 1 and 2.


In fact, as you hinted strongly in your last post, it has to be the last one, doesn't it because...

100 kittens (each applying once), 100 puppies (each applying once).....
for each class, puppies and kittens were rejected at the same rate.

but, if the rejection rate was the same then how can it betrue that

58 kittens accepted to classes at the academy this session.
42 puppies accepted to classes at the academy this session.



I shall think about this on the train to work.... Were the applicant kittens lying about their species? Or - here's a longshot - does the input form for the stats default to 'kitten' and when the inputters come up against a name of ambiguous species, do they leave it as the default?

[billl]

Number 2, more than anything.

With number 3 being a repetition of 2 perhaps, or maybe the "What will they do about it?" part of the question... Actually, Number 3 is maybe just US STRUGGLING with the problem.

Or, shoot--you could blame it all on number 1, maybe.

[billl]

clarifying presentation:

Imagine you are of group A (man, dog, etc.) and there is another group B (woman, cat, etc.) that is also applying to study at some university that is offering some selection of classes. The university has an equal number of applicants from A and B (and, for argument's sake, each student applies just once, choosing only one class). All of that is equal. ALSO, if you (an 'A') are in line to submit your application to a professor, you can be absolutely assured that your chances of acceptance into the class are exactly the same as the A in front of you and the B behind you--everyone has an equal chance.

The puzzle is: Why is the university accepting significantly more members of one group?

(58% of those accepted are of type 'B', for example)

[Scheherazade]

How does the acceptance process work? First-come-first-served?

[MarkBastable]

How does the acceptance process work? First-come-first-served?

Ah - kittens get up earlier in the morning! Or dogs, or whichever it was.

In other words, they are rejected at the same rate, as bill says, but they apply at different rates.

[billl]

How does the acceptance process work? First-come-first-served?

There's a deadline, all applications are considered, and the best ones are chosen.


EDIT/ADDITION: That is, when it is stated that "100 kittens and 100 puppies apply", those applications are all considered for acceptance, none of them are "too late"--it isn't first-come, first-served.


************************************************** ***************
EDIT ADDITION:
To recap, and focus on the essentials: all of the info in this example (from post #427) is relevant, and sufficient to demonstrate the answer:


100 kittens (each applying once), 100 puppies (each applying once)
58 kittens accepted to classes at the academy this session.
42 puppies accepted to classes at the academy this session.

5 classes, 20 students each.

for each class, puppies and kittens were rejected at the same rate.

[MarkBastable]

Ah...for each class, puppies and kittens were rejected at the same rate.


Subject bias.


If the boys as a group tend to apply to a narrower selection of classes, fewer of them will get in. Whereas the girls might apply more broadly across the classes, so more of them get in.

Let's say eighty boys and twenty girls apply for engineering - and they are rejected at the proportionate rate of four in five, because there are twenty places. So sixteen boys and four girls get in.


The remaining four classes each have five boys and twenty girls apply, rejected at a rate of one in five - so four boys and sixteen girls get into each class.


In total, there are thirty-two boys and sixty-eight girls enrolled in the year.

[billl]

YES!

If anyone wants to solve for 58-42 percent, maybe that can be a nice little puzzle until the next one is presented.


EDIT: By the way, if anyone is interested in the real world inspiration for this example, I'm afraid I can't point directly to it--I've been searching, but to no avail. HOWEVER, I heard about it in a little essay (http://edge.org/q2011/q11_14.html#lloyd) among many other essays by mostly interesting thinkers at the edge.org website. Unfortunately, the essayist (Seth Lloyd) only mentions the name of the researcher he heard about it from (Joel Cohen), and that wasn't enough for me to track it down out of all the papers published by the researcher online, and the undoubtedly many more that haven't been. But Seth Lloyd is a perfectly respectable computer scientist, famous even.

[MarkBastable]

At bleedin' last.

Right, I'll get the next one together over the weekend....


Edit: Sorry - been busy. I'll get there in the next 24.

[MarkBastable]

What connects....


Me and Bobby McGee
The Hubble telescope
The Beauty Myth
The Van Der Graaff generator

[MarkBastable]

Three days, and no one's so much as taken a punt at it. Are more clues required?

[billl]

I have learned a bit (just a BIT) about The Beauty Myth just now. This one is tough, though. If Janis Joplin had attended Princeton, things might be more than half-way to a solution, but as it is...

[MarkBastable]

I have learned a bit (just a BIT) about The Beauty Myth just now. This one is tough, though. If Janis Joplin had attended Princeton, things might be more than half-way to a solution, but as it is...


....that's not a bad start. You need to look into the pupils of a Colossus.

[MystyrMystyry]

Spaced out, space telescope, spacey, spatial something?

[prendrelemick]

Didn't Newton do something with pupils ? When he was doing light and rainbows in his "Opticks".

[billl]

1) A certain Mr. Roger Miller wrote the song "Me and Bobby McGee".

2) That Mr. Miller also wrote a musical called "Big River" that debuted in New York on April 25 (1985).
April 25 is also the date that the Hubble Telescope was placed in orbit (in 1990).

3) An album called "Present" by the group Van der Graaf Generator was released on April 25, 2005.

4) Naomi Wolf *probably* (I have no proof) liked the sometimes legendarily beautiful singer Janis Joplin, who did her own version of Miller's "Me and Bobby McGee".

[MarkBastable]

Inventive though that is, it falls at the first. Roger Miller didn't write Me and Bobby McGee.

However, you do care who did.


I'll add one to the list, as a further clue


Me and Bobby McGee
The Hubble telescope
The Beauty Myth
The Van Der Graaff generator
A stain on a blue dress

[prendrelemick]

Is that Monika Lewinski's famous blue dress.

Ok, I think the connection could be Oxford University, but more research needed.

[prendrelemick]

Rhodes' Scholars! Hence the "Collossus" clue.

Naomi Wolf, the writer
Kriss Kristopherson, the song writer
Bill Clinton, who produced the stain
Edwin Hubble, of the telescope

Am struggling with Van De (and Der) Graaf Generator though.

[MarkBastable]

Rhodes' Scholars! Hence the "Collossus" clue.

Am struggling with Van De (or Der) Graaf Generator though.


Yep - they are all the products of Rhodes' scholars.

Robert Van Der Graaff (two F's, unlike the band), who invented the generator, was also a Rhodes' scholar. It's not mentioned in his personal Wiki entry, but it is mentioned in the Rhodes Scholarhip Wiki entry.


You're next, prendrelemick.

[prendrelemick]

I have an idea, just working out the detail.

[prendrelemick]

Here is some American Rhyming slang (there's no such thing I've just made it up,) in the style of Mills and Boon.

Rhyming slang works as follows:- A word is replaced by the beginning of a short common phrase. The end of the phrase rhymes with the replaced word. Eg “Apples” replaces “Stairs” because “Apples and pears” rhymes with stairs. Here I have tried to use phrases of American origin.


She felt tired. It was a sesame to hissy and acid a while. She saw Joe approach, this was catch. She tried to keep funny, but her touch felt long. She rubbed the back of her rain to enough herself. She was play, but he was go, a perfect match. "What a fifteen minutes I'm such a five O Clock," she thought.. “You look like you need some murder” he said.

Can you translate?

[MarkBastable]

Here's a partial attempt.

In some cases, I have a phrase but can't come up with a rhyme (five o'clock shadow?), or I have a word that seems possible, but can't come up with a phrase (murder **** = sleep?).



She felt tired. It was a sesame street (treat) to hissyfit (sit) and acid attacks (relax)a while.

She saw Joe approach, this was catch.

She tried to keep funnyfarm (calm), but her touch felt long. She rubbed the back of her raincheck (neck) to enough already (steady) herself. She was play, but he was go, a perfect match.

"What a fifteen minutes I'm such a five O Clock," she thought..

“You look like you need some murder” he said.

[billl]

"What a shame (15 minutes of fame) I'm such a ho (5 o' clock shadow)" she thought.

[prendrelemick]

So far so good, Only I meant "acid test"-rest, but I don't think it is an exact science.


I'm not sure how to give clues. The five oclock shadow, is a difficult one, it's supposed to mean "pathetic."

"Murder ***" is from any American Cop show. (Its not sleep.)

[billl]

murder rap
"You look like crap."

[MarkBastable]

murder rap
"You look like crap."



Nah, it's going to be Murder one - sun. But I prefer yours.

[billl]

You know, I had a Eureka moment and didn't even bother to look back at the context within the conversation, that's how sure I was about it.

[prendrelemick]

Its murder One - Fun, but I wish I'd thought of Billl's solution.

Soo, now for some Oxford blues, I'll paraphrase the phrases.

Catch **, You're wrong if you do, you're wrong if you don't.

Touch ****, A sporting phrase that also means keeping, or getting in touch with someone.

Long ****, A chance, but not much of one.

Play ****, The beginning of a baseball game.

Go ******, Go away and work it out for yourself


With five O-Clock shadow, I'm looking for a slang word for pathetic person.

[MystyrMystyry]

5 o'clock shadow - shmoe
catch [22] - taboo?
touch [base] - face
long [shot] - hot
play [ball] - tall
go - [something] taller

[prendrelemick]

no
yes but no, not taboo
yes
yes
yes
no

[MarkBastable]

go figure - bigger

five o'clock hero - zero?

[prendrelemick]

yes, yes

no,no

[MarkBastable]

...saddo


That's very satisfying. I was thinking, "Strictly speaking this ought to be a double rhyme with the stress on the first syllable, but nothing rhymes so neatly with shad... Hang on."

[MystyrMystyry]

Ah - definitely shadow - see above

[JuniperWoolf]

Catch 22 - new?

[prendrelemick]

Yes, "saddo" a near perfect rhyme. (unlike some of the others.)

New, is correct too, so that's it. Finished!

Who's go is it ? Has anybody got something?

[billl]

For the record, I don't think any Americans had ever seen or heard the word "saddo" before the appearance of post number 466 of this thread.

[prendrelemick]

I did wonder, but who can resist a perfect rhyme.

[billl]

Mark found it very satisfying, so I say he's next, until someone else comes up with something.

[MystyrMystyry]

Do another one Pren - that was good value!

[prendrelemick]

I have nothing left, I'm drained.

[MarkBastable]

This one's eminently googleable, but obviously that would just spoil it.....


This is a mnemonic I learned at school - what is it designed to help you remember?


Camels Ordinarily Sit Down Carefully. Possibly Their Joints Creak. Perhaps Early Oiling Might Prolong Perfect Health.

[prendrelemick]

I am trying (in vain) to think of O level lists that had to be learned in the days of rote. There were loads in History (and Latin, my Grammer School wife informs me.)

[MarkBastable]

I'll give you a clue.

As the years pass, it's necessary to add words to the mnemonic to keep it up to date. But no one ever has done that.

[Scheherazade]

Well, there goes my theory that it might have something to do with the periodic table (chemical)...

[prendrelemick]

Periods of the Phanerozoic eon. Cambrian, Ordovician, Silurian, Devonian, Carboniferous, etc..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Era_(geology)#Terminology


I doubt there will be anyone around when the next word is needed.

[kasie]

Did you know that, Mick, or did you look it up? Are you a former Geology student, an Old Rocker, so to speak?

[billl]

I thought the Old Rockers had already come up with the next word: "Sexandrugcene".

[prendrelemick]

Did you know that, Mick, or did you look it up? Are you a former Geology student, an Old Rocker, so to speak?

I guessed it, and then looked it up. ( I have been watching "Men of Rock" on BBC2 )


Billl, I reckon "Hollow-scene" is about right for this era.

Below is a passage from one of Conan Doyle's stories. 5

"What!" he cried. 5 "Don't tell me that _you_ have had one of these preposterous telegrams for oxygen?" 7
I exhibited it. 2
"Well, well! 4 I have had one too, and, as you see, very much against the grain, I have acted upon it. 7 Our good friend is as impossible as ever. 2 The need for oxygen could not have been so urgent that he must desert the usual means of supply and encroach upon the time of those who are really busier than himself. 2 Why could he not order it direct?" 3

Each sentence has a value, (shown in red.) 5

Can you work out the criteria used to find that value?3

[kasie]

Number of capital letters and punctuation marks? (I can't make out the function of those two dashes in the second sentence, however.)

I caught only the last of the Men of Rock programmes - found it interesting but could not understand the complaint in this week's RT about the 'over-exposure' of the presenter; the correspondent preferred Tony Robinson's approach on a similar subject, calling him 'discreet'. :confused:

[prendrelemick]

That was so quick! I spent ages setting it! The two dashes were in the text I pasted, they seem to be the equivalent of Italics in a Dan Brown.

I'didn't think much to the Tony Robinson programme, though both were a bit simplistic.


your turn.

[kasie]

Sorry, Mick - there must be something wrong with me, can't think how the brain came to be functioning at that time in the evening!

My turn? I'll think of something while I'm pedalling away in the gym..... (Yes, there's definitely something wrong with me.....)


EDIT: I am going away for a few days so would anyone else like to provide a puzzle to be going on with, please?

IOU one puzzle when I get back early next week.

[prendrelemick]

Here,s a quickie. Finish the Metaphor.


As nervous as a **** ****** dog in a room full of ******* chairs.

[MarkBastable]

Here,s a quickie. Finish the Metaphor.


As nervous as a **** ****** dog in a room full of ******* chairs.

I hear this in a Gabby Hayes voice - I've certainily never heard a Brit say it. Anyhoo, as Gabby Hayes might also say, a four-tailed dog in a room full of rocking chairs?

[MarkBastable]

The underlines (not dashes) in the sentence in a previous puzzle, incidentally, were indeed italic indicators.

I'm just trying to piece together the history here, to explain why that was done. I've never thought about it before, but I think that that notation is a sort of transitional thing.

In the days before computers and word processing packages (yes, yes, dearly beloved, surely there was such a time), when people used typewriters, long before the elephant got his trunk, standard manuscript notation to indicate italics was to underline the entire word. You'd type it and then backspace and underline it using the underline key.

You were essentially using two characters in the same typed space - you were overtyping, but the underline (just) fitted beneath the letter.

When people started using computers, there was a problem. On a computer, the underline couldn't be typed in the same character space as a letter - but there weren't yet any word processing packages that could render italics. In fact, there weren't even any fonts. I'm talking here about green-screen terminals of big SMERSH computers in the basement of your office building. No one yet had a PC at home, and the summers were long and hot, the kids showed some respect and there was always clean snow on Christmas morning.

So the convention to express italics was to put the underline before and after the _word_ you wanted italicised. Looks ugly as hell, but everyone got used to it.

They got _so_ used to it, in fact, that even in the mid-nineties, by which time people had home PCs and MSWord and such apps, it was still required by some publishers and typesetters that italics be expressed in this way.

Christ, I feel old.

[prendrelemick]

As old as Methuselah,s Grannie! I read the dog and rocking chairs metaphor on a cricket blog. - Odd metaphors are very popular in the Cricet world at the moment.

[prendrelemick]

As old as Methuselah,s Grannie! I read the dog and rocking chairs metaphor on a cricket blog. - Odd metaphors are very popular in the Cricket world at the moment.

[prendrelemick]

To keep the thread ticking over...


Nun has lived-in look.

[MarkBastable]

I suspect it's sinister.

But usually cryptic clues have not only what you might call the constructive part (put the word 'in' into a word for 'nun'), but also the synonymous part (the answer is the equivalent of 'left',for instance). Without that second bit, you've got no corroboration, as it were.

So unless 'look' is the equivalent of 'sinister' - which I think would be a tough sell to regular Times solvers - my guess is only that, and not internally supported, really.


Anyway, assuming it's my go....

Which is the odd one out?

Milton, Heaney, Tennyson, Penn Warren, Betjeman, Frost

[prendrelemick]

The thing with Cryptic clues, is that there are many kinds. Different compliers use different clues as to the type of clue you have, so words like embedded, engulfed, mixed up, sounds like and perhaps, have to be watched for. Some need a deeply analytical approach, watching out for references and allusions and substitutions and such. Some need a carefull perusal for anagrams and words hidden between words and other trickery. Then there are those that are deceptively simple, where you have to stand back and clear your mind and the answer is obvious (once you've solved it.) They all contain (as you say) at least two hints at the answer, the bit to be worked upon and the bit for confirmation.




No, not sinister

[MarkBastable]

The thing with Cryptic clues, is that there are many kinds, though they all contain (as you say) at least two hints at the answer. Some need a deeply analytical approach, watching out for references and allusions and substitutions and such. Some need a carefull perusal for anagrams and words hidden between words and other trickery. Then there are those that are deceptively simple, where you have to stand back and clear your mind and the answer is obvious (once you've solved it.)


No, not sinister


Crap. In that case, put my entire peroration on hold, until we have an answer. I mean, it's still true, but it might not be true in this case.

[prendrelemick]

Granted sinister works nicely, but I would have put something like . "something strange left in a Nun, or Mostly inside left handed nun."

[MarkBastable]

How many letters?

[prendrelemick]

9 letters


(Its not really a cryptic clue, its a word substitution plus a corroboration, disguised as a criptic.)

[billl]

Heaven?

("devil" is spelled backwards, and a nun looks like she'd be quite at home in Heaven.)


EDIT: Hah, never mind, that isn't 9 letters.

[prendrelemick]

you're being far too clever.

[billl]

virginity?