The puzzle of the socalled "Bach variations".

[Musicology]

Dear Yanni,

Can you imagine an elephant sitting on a branch of an apple tree munching apples ? Nor can I. And there's more. I cannot imagine a performance of 'Messiah' in a New York coffee shop in 1770 (or any other at any other time).

Speaking of that very coffee shop in New York, it was the venue for a celebratory visit by the French Ambassador. In 1783. A big year in USA history. You might check that out also.

I mention this because you need to research more on the family of a certain Baron Bagge (Bache) de Ennal, Charles-Ernest (b. Fockenhof, Kurland 1722 - d. Paris 24th March 1791).

'Bagge'. (The same Baron 'Bagge' of Paris music impresario fame). His family date all the way back to 1066 and the papally approved invasion of England in that year. Since Baron Bagge (Bache's) ancestors came to England with William the Conqueror also. Ask the Jacobin supporter Theophylacte-Richard Bache.

But there was no relation to J.S. Bach of Leipzig. One was a scoundrel and the other was the real article.

Anyway, best wishes

Johann Philipp Kirnberger
Sinfonia B-Dur
(1721-1783)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTNJH...eature=related

And here is some music by his teacher -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clCZg...eature=related

And, as usual, best wishes.

Robert

As for 'Mozart's' arrangement of Handel oratorios -

"LOST" MOZART PIECE HEARD FOR FIRST TIME ON TRIO
World Premiere of "Mozart Lost & Found," An Original Special

To Air On Trio on October 7 [sic -- reairing 1/16/05]

New York, N.Y. — September 17, 2002</B> -- On Monday, October 7, popular arts channel TRIO will present the world premiere of Mozart: Lost & Found, an original special which presents the discovery of the long-lost manuscript of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart’s adaptation of G.F. Handel’s oratorio "Judas Maccabaeus". The documentary traces the discovery of the work and is followed by the full orchestral performance of this manuscript for the first time in over 100 years. This special airs exclusively on popular arts channel TRIO, it was announced by Lauren Zalaznick, President, TRIO.
"We’re proud to present this groundbreaking discovery exclusively on TRIO," said Zalaznick. "We will continue to bring TRIO audiences ‘never-before-seen’ programming across different genres that truly reflect our popular arts programming mission."

Hosted by actor Stephen Fry (Gosford Park), Mozart: Lost & Found begins with a 30-minute documentary covering the fascinating story behind the discovery of the music manuscript. Leeds University music scholar Dr. Rachel Cowgill, who found the manuscript, is among the experts interviewed. The history-making piece, dating back to the 1780’s, is presented in a 90-minute concert performed by the Halifax Choral Society in England and conducted by John Pryce Jones.

(Comment - Hogwash) !

//

2. http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=uk

3. The idea of writing an arrangement of Handel’s Messiah was not Mozart’s. He was in fact commissioned to do this by Baron Gottfried van Swieten. Van Swieten had founded the "Society of Associates" (Gesellschaft der Associierten) in Vienna, an exclusive circle that organised private performances of oratorios during Lent and at Christmas. Because of the reforms introduced by Emperor Joseph II, church music had suffered from drastic changes to the liturgy that had almost brought about its total demise. For this reason, the emphasis shifted to private performances. The Viennese aristocracy was part of van Swieten’s circle and its members also acted as patrons. For quite some time before he worked on the Messiah, Mozart been part of these concerts – he played cembalo under the direction of the court theatre composer, Starzer, [U]who had already arranged Judas Maccabaeus.[/U]

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=uk

//

Well, we can't be too harsh, can we ? The Mozart industry loves such stuff !! It's not 'Mozart's' arrangement at all, is it ? Nor was the 'Messiah' arrangement. It was also by the same Starzer. But the name of Mozart is definitely on the title page of Judas Maccabeus at Halifax. Wonder why ? Must have been another case of musical amnesia ! Quick ! Let's auction it fast for more Mozart festivals !!!

[yanni]

You don't get it, do you?

The limits of your imagination is not the subject of this thread, so please stop sacrificing yourself exhibiting them.

It was Handel/Bach's own choice to avoid anglican churches for his Messiah and Tuckey followed.

http://mymerrychristmas.com/2005/messiah.shtml

Can you imagine an elephant sitting on a branch of an apple tree munching apples ? Nor can I. And there's more. I cannot imagine a performance of 'Messiah' in a New York coffee shop in 1770 (or any other at any other time).

[Musicology]

But I DO get it, Yanni. I DO !

Why not examine the family history of the fraternity recruit Baron Bagge of Paris and his role (and those of others of his clan) in the careers of Haydn and Handel ? You do know of him in Paris, don't you ? Why not check out the relationship of Baron Bagge of Paris with composer/violinist Viotti (that employee of the British Empire) ? Or the faking of 'Haydn's' symphonies in Paris ?

The history of music, so-called, is of course a counterfeit of historical reality. It has been for over 200 published years. Run by fraudsters, fraternity ghouls, and professional liars. And to suppose it is more clean, more honest, than the history of governments, or kings, or bankers, or any other part of human existence is simply naive.

It's not your fault. It's simply that Music deserves better.

Vassili Kalinnikov (1866-1901)
Symphony No. 1
1st Mvt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROtADTN8cuA


Regards

You don't get it, do you?

The limits of your imagination is not the subject of this thread, so please stop sacrificing yourself exhibiting them.

It was Handel/Bach's own choice to avoid anglican churches for his Messiah and Tuckey followed.

http://mymerrychristmas.com/2005/messiah.shtml

Richard Bache (1737-1811) (Bagge). Known in New York 1770 as ‘Theophylacte Richard Bache’. Had arrived in USA in 1761 and set up a successful business in marine insurance with a colleague in London. Finished that business in 1767 after many financial irregularities. By one of those amazing coincidences he was able to marry Benjamin Franklin’s own daughter, Sarah (1743-1808) and then became head of the American Post Office. This after a period when he had served on many committees in the American War of Independence, including committees of the Board of War.

Knew as much of music as our next door neighbour’s cat. And closely associated with the usual Romanist/Holy Roman Empire fraternities who (with the ‘investment’ of King George) had effectively bankrolled both sides of the American War of Independence - through the ‘King of France‘ - (none other than King George himself and the usual feudalist elites). Baron Bagges in Norfolk (England) and elsewhere date their ancestry back to 1066, as previously said. You may also wish to check out the history of the Bagge family in Sweden and in Holland. One of whom (in the 16th century) was an admiral in Sweden.

Bache in 1770 knew zero of Handel or Bach’s music.

In fact the first published score of Messiah had appeared 3 years earlier, in 1767, (London - Randall and Abell) and a copy came to New York around 1770 with Bache, (this music having undergone major changes before it was first published).

Excerpts of this work were sung in New York in 1770.

As for Richard Bache (who appears to have been born in Yorkshire, England and was related to the Barons Bagge of Norfolk, England) neither he nor they ever showed the slightest interest in Bach’s music. Nor did Baron Bagge of Paris (whose priority was to oversee final production of ‘Haydn’s’ symphonies there prior to them being attributed to Josef Haydn - another story).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYjqn...eature=related

//

[yanni]

January 1770: Handel's Messiah performed (first at Burns Coffee Hall) New York

September 28, 1772 From the musical instruments [Musicalischen Instrumenten] which belong to the Community, Brother Utley has got an inventory from Brother Heinrich Stoehr. It would be good if we had a separate closet for the instruments in the Brothers’House. If the instruments have to be repaired, the leader of the Community Chest should know about it.
http://www.amis.org/publications/new.../34.2-2005.pdf

Thomas Paine 1774 -- Leaves England, arriving in New York, then to Philadelphia in the fall; 1774 – Calls on Richard Bache, Ben Franklin's son-in-law ...
http://www.cooperativeindividualism....e-presentation.

July 4, 1780 The musicians should be asked to take good care of the instruments, mainly because there is nobody installed to look after them.It was suggested to collect some money that is necessary for the music because right now we could buy strings [Saiten] for a right good price in the Store. Since Brother Bagge, however, promised to keep as many strings as are necessary for us, we thought that it may be as well for us to defer the collection for awhile..

August 9, 1780: Upon Brother Peter’s request Brother Bagge mentioned that the violin strings [Violin Saiten] which he has right now are too strong for the hot weather, and that if possible he is going to get some that are finer from the Store. We all agreed that he should get as much from the Store as he needs for the present time very urgently, until we have talked about the contribution for the music [account]with the Community Council.
http://www.amis.org/publications/new.../34.2-2005.pdf

Franklin -Bache: Immediately on arriving in Paris, Franklin took up his ... 'A. H. Smyth, "The Life and Writings of Benjamin Franklin" (New York, 1907), .... celebrated and singular baron de Bagge, a violinomaniac whose ..... 1781. Apparently it was in the month of April, 1781, that Frank- ...
mq.oxfordjournals.org/content/IX/2/245.full.pdf

July 4, 1788: First came twelve axe-men dressed in white frocks, with black girdles, Then there were, at intervals, companies of the City Troop, horsemen who bore banners with the dates of the original Independence Day, of the coming of the French allies, of the definitive treaty of peace with Great Britain, and of the completion of the Constitution. Richard Bache, on horseback, attended by a herald, proclaimed the new era.

For Ben Franklin’s fraternity(Nine Sisters) bro “baron Bagge” see http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home...abs1=standard& p205 (and forget about the Oxford Journal and their censors)

For the rest of (this part only of) the Bagge-Bache-Bach story see...

http://www.online-literature.com/for...t=51451&page=9

....to be now corrected: The Salem, New York german speaking brother Bagge, violin chord expert, storekeeper-merchant, Ben Franklin's son in law, is not to be identified anymore as an alias of general Chastellux or Franklin's Paris Baron Bagge (aka Haydn,aka one of the brothers Cocceji-Kochs, Carl Ludwig or Johann Friedrich). Their portraits clearly show two different persons and so do their known life details.

Readers wishing to further expand their Bach-Koch knowledge are advised to research the history of Ronneburg as related to Philadelphia, Calvin, JSBach and "a" Johann Wilhelm Koch, cantor there.

For further expansion on the same subject see "Two works by Poe decoded.Announcement"
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Get down from that tree Robert, else you risk another accident!

[Musicology]

Yanni,

I have the strange belief that nothing at all is accidental.

Every good thing has its counterfeits. Which, when compared, only make both obvious. But what is real speaks for itself. It asserts itself. With authority. It always has. It always will. I believe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYjqn...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Mn1i...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VS1Ko...eature=related

///

[yanni]

Listening to JSBach(?), Robert, we are all thanking the Lord, who has protected you from the helicopter accident and, more recently, Starzer's Messiah, Handel/Bach's first "over coffee" performances in Dublin/London, the tree climbing elephant, the american Bache scoundrels and their relatives promoting Handel/Bache later on, all leaving you speechless unfortunately.

Fret not, you are not alone!

This last symptom is shared by many of your british colleagues eversince the publication of "The English Bach awakening: knowledge of J.S. Bach and his music in England" by Michael Kassler" (english version publ 2004) that has clearly affected the industry's servants, many silently asking for Lord's mercy together with you!

"Reach out and you'll all be reached" I say!

Until then, however, let me point out how interesting note 24 of page 6 of this publication I found to be:

It concerns a "JH" who, coming from Vienna, allegedly visited JSBach in Leipzig 1749 and was given some parts of the Goldberg Variations-or so he claimed. The same JH supplied John Hawkins with particulars of JSBach's biography for his History of Music(1776) and, following Hawkin's death in 1789, gave(?) his Variations copies to a Mr Glen(?) who then sold them to a William Reeves who had them for sale in 1893.

I leave it up to you, Robert, to tell the music loving world who, to the best of your recently expanded knowledge, this "Austrian" JH who "introduced" (attempted but failed really) JSBach to british music scholars, sometime between 1750-1776, could have been!

Kassler,you see, was kind enough not to mention the most likely candidate but rejected all others!

Ta-ta.

[Musicology]

Yanni,

Thank you for your continual reference to accidents. It was no accident but by design that scumbag, occultist fraternity interests and their lackies over the centuries stole, defrauded, and invented a version of the 'history of music' (so-called) which finally arrived with its pre-selected idols only in the early 19th century - requiring the input of patronising elites of fake Christian and fake Jewish antiquity across much of Europe, Britain and beyond. By using the music of others and totally ignoring 99% of actual musical achievement. Why, the musical fakery of Handel, his managers and publicicists is matched only by the fakery and inventions associated with W.A. Mozart and Josef Haydn. A real 'inside job'. Why not buy out a few more music publishers, broadcasters and textbook writers, and have total control of what is taught and believed on the subject in the name of musicology ? You can then publish it without criticism and generations of the faithful will believe it. Then we can all be 'cultured', 'educated' and 'well informed' at the same time.

As for allegations, these rank very low in my priorities.

You should consider going into the whitewash business. Or at least becoming a sales agent for the Packard Institute for replica 'autographs' of the operas of W.A. Mozart.

http://mozartfacsimiles.org/mf/FigFM.pdf

http://www.harrassowitz.de/music_ser...Facsimile.html

[yanni]

JH, "unknown" for 260 years now and no freaking C.R.A.P*musicologist has dared look in his direction!

BUT

Don't leave the whitewash business on my behalf just yet,Robert, an amateur can never take the place of a professional.

Should your performance in this here forum result to the unthinkable I'll gladly give you a reference letter to your next employers and I'll generously never list all other "accidents" you suffered during our encounter.

I hear Berlin has an awfull lot of washing up to do too.

Ta-Ta!

*Coordinated Research Association's Production

Yanni,

Thank you for your continual reference to accidents. It was no accident but by design that scumbag occultist fraternity interests and their lackies over the centuries stole, defrauded, and invented a version of the 'history of music' (so-called) which finally arrived with its pre-selected idols only in the early 19th century - including the input of patronising elites of fake Christian and fake Jewish antiquity. By using the music of others and totally ignoring 99% of actual musical achievement. Why, the musical fakery of Handel, his managers and publicicists is matched only by the fakery and inventions related to the mythical achievements of W.A. Mozart and Josef Haydn. A real 'inside job'. Why not buy out a few more music publishers, broadcasters and textbook writers, and have total control of what is taught and believed on the subject ? You can then publish it without criticism and generations will believe it. Then we can all be 'cultured', 'educated' and 'well informed' at the same time.

As for allegations, these rank very low in my priorities.

You should consider going into the whitewash business. Or at least becoming a sales agent for the Packard Institute for replica 'autographs' of the operas of W.A. Mozart.

http://mozartfacsimiles.org/mf/FigFM.pdf

http://www.harrassowitz.de/music_ser...Facsimile.html

[Musicology]

You might also consider the red herring business.

Can you tell us when the first public concert of music by J.S. Bach was in Vienna ?

a. During his lifetime ?

b. The century after his lifetime ?


Don't bother answering. The answer to the puzzle of Bach's variations is............ Yanni ! It's inventor.

Here is some music -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6PhU...eature=related

[yanni]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3Zs2...eature=related

Also see JH at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Save_the_Queen (the original of previous composition by unknown composer said to have impressed JH so much that he copied it- or so claims the exact science of musicolgy).

What a rewardingly broad recognition to a life-long resident of Austria!

[Musicology]

That theme is not by Josef Haydn. It is (according to Luca Bianchini and Agostino Taboga) by Andrea Luchesi, the Kapellmeister at Bonn from 1771 to 1794. They have found very similar in the music archives of the Estense Library in Modena, Italy. (In the music that was once in the Bonn Music Archives before its arrival there).

Musicology (so-called) is not and cannot be an 'exact' science. It has become a counterfeit produced for public consumption by the music industry. Resisted by honest people. And anyone who deviates from the official line is excluded. Real musicology was too big a threat. Forkel and others. So 'they' produced a cardboard version in its place around 200 years ago, when the first 'histories of music' were published. Real musicology allows/encourages common sense. In fact, common sense is an essential part of it.

You should ask Luca Bianchini and Anna Trombetta to describe what happened when they were invited to lecture on the origins of the Vienna composers in Germany. They travelled all the way from Italy and spoke only for 15 minutes before they were asked to stop. After they had been invited to travel there to give students a lecture on the subject. Check it out ! There are numerous other examples.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3Zs2...eature=related

Also see JH at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Save_the_Queen (the original of previous composition by unknown composer said to have impressed JH so much that he copied it- or so claims the exact science of musicolgy).

[yanni]

What does cousin Trombetta say on the matter?

Replace "exact" with "well respected" if you must, in double quotes both!

That theme is not by Josef Haydn. It is (according to Luca Bianchini and Agostino Taboga) by Andrea Luchesi, the Kapellmeister at Bonn from 1771 to 1794. They have found very similar in the music archives of the Estense Library in Modena, Italy. (In the music that was once in the Bonn Music Archives before its arrival there).

Musicology (so-called) is not and cannot be an 'exact' science. It has become a counterfeit of the music industry. And anyone who deviates from the official line is excluded.

[Musicology]

You will have to ask Trombetta. Does that sound fair and reasonable to you ? Did the idea ever occur to you of asking people who have actually studied these things in detail ? I only suggest it as a possible improvement to your posts.

As for musicology being well respected, it is respected by me and others only if it allows criticism. Does that sound fair and reasonable to you ?

Shall I provide you with email addresses so you can write it ? Shall I write the letter for you and send it too ?

I say once again Yanni the history of western music most students are taught is sheer nonsense. How did that happen ? You might care to examine it yourself.

What does cousin Trombetta say on the matter?

Replace "exact" with "well respected" if you must, in double quotes both!

[yanni]

Alas, Robert, your partner-keeper of your "sheer nonsence" pile who also happens to be my distant cousin- never answered my last relative open letter* to you both, modest as it was!
Just like you did (not) in fact.

I suggest you renew your Joint Venture and give it another try, now JH has introduced himself to set you both free.

*See post 96 of http://www.online-literature.com/for...d.php?p=873911 and your following non answer-escape thru Joseph Haydn, ie Kassler's "unknown" JH.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRnA8VaFzD8 (by JH)

[Musicology]

Yanni,

I have worked with some difficult lines of research over many years. But I have never encountered such confusion of thought, and such vagueness as I have repeatedly read from you in your posts. What you say obscures and diminishes what you have already said. Why don't you speak clearly about what you think and stop being obtuse ? Are you restricted because of your loyalties ? Your posts are really like spaghetti. Am I alone in thinking this ?

I will tell you clearly - much of what you write reads like nonsense. And the good things you write (which show how clearly fraternities were involved with manufacturing the careers of musicians) are often ruined by it. You do not write as if you know what you are actually saying.

We do not live in mediaeval times. We are free to give our views without any need for vagueness and innuendo.

That is my view and I hope you appreciate the truth of it. Because you are wasting your time and talents and the time of others if you do not structure your posts. They are very tiring and often lead nowhere.

You should study fugue. That will help. And I say this sincerely. But you first need a theme. And what you say must always be relative to what you have said and what you will say - all within the theme of what you are saying. That is something you can do. If you are prepared to try. It doesn't matter how complicated a thing is. It must always be simple. THAT is talent. And if you think you have succeeded in that, do better.

J.S. Bach
Trio Sonata No. 1 in E-flat Major
Third Movement
Allegro
BWV 525/3

http://www.youtube.com/user/smalin#p...26/1y7aw_ExNic


Regards

Alas, Robert, your partner-keeper of your "sheer nonsence" pile who also happens to be my distant cousin- never answered my last relative open letter* to you both, modest as it was!
Just like you did (not) in fact.

I suggest you renew your Joint Venture and give it another try, now JH has introduced himself to set you both free.

*See post 96 of http://www.online-literature.com/for...d.php?p=873911 and your following non answer-escape thru Joseph Haydn, ie Kassler's "unknown" JH.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRnA8VaFzD8 (by JH)