The puzzle of the socalled "Bach variations".

[Musicology]

Thanks Yanni,

I am glad we can agree to disagree. So, when Bach tried (twice) to see Handel (both times unsuccessfully) he was actually trying to see himself ?

That deserves a reward for originality and is as deep a lesson as we will ever get on this thread, for sure ! And what does Bach think about that ?

Best wishes

Johann Sebastian Bach
Brandenburg Concertos
Musica Florea
Artistic director Marek Štryncl

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0VVL...eature=related

[yanni]

Your educated explanation please, no more, no less:

Composed by Georg Frideric Handel - London, c1715-1716 ?
1st performance: Hamburg ?, date unknown (possibly March 23, 1719 at Hamburg Cathedral)
Performances by J.S. Bach:
1st performance: Good Friday April 8, 1746 - Leipzig (prepared for performance by J.S. Bach)
2nd performance: Good Friday August 1748 - October 1749 - Leipzig
Pasticcio Passion, based on Markus-Passion by Friedrich Nicolaus Brauns [previously attributed to Reinhard Keiser] with insertion of 7 arias from Brockes Passion by G.F. Händel - Good Friday April 31, 1747 or April 12, 1748 - Thomaskirche, Leipzig .

Thanks Yanni,

I am glad we can agree to disagree. So, when Bach tried (twice) to see Handel (both times unsuccessfully) he was actually trying to see himself ?

That deserves a reward for originality and is as deep a lesson as we will ever get on this thread, for sure ! And what does Bach think about that ?

Best wishes

Johann Sebastian Bach
Brandenburg Concertos
Musica Florea
Artistic director Marek Štryncl

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0VVL...eature=related

[Musicology]

Yanni, I confess I have run out of education on this subject. Does the performance of a Passion at Leipzig, which was cobbled together from arias attributed to Handel and actually by Friedrich Nicolaus Brauns [previously wrongly attributed to Reinhard Keiser] at the Thomaskirche, some time between 1747 and 1748) prove Handel and Bach were the same man ?

Maybe Vivaldi and Bach were the same man ? Or Handel and Vivaldi ? Since there is just as much evidence to support those ideas as yours.

[yanni]

Are you now questioning JSBach's continuous Leipzig Thomaskirche Kantor presence, the uniqueness and integrity of your "idol" maybe, or perhaps Handel's well known composition of Brockes oratorio ?

The fact is Bach systematically directed Handel's "Brocke's passion" from 1746 to 1749*,the 1748 pasticcio included, and it's up to you, the musicologist, to explain why Wolf (Footnote 42 of his “Bach”) believes that after 31 March 1749 oratoria that were not deemed appropriate for Leipzig’s main churches were performed in the Grand Concerts Hall such as Handel’s Brocke’s passion and Kaiser-Handel Markus pasticcio!

You, who were infact asking yourself not long ago in this thread how Heinrich von Brühl could fortell , on 2 June 1749, the eventual ... decease of Mr. Bach requesting in parallel that his music director, Gottlob Harrer, fill the post of Thomascantor and Director musices.

Or were you perhaps asking me?

*a highly critical period historicaly that defined "Bach's" early "death".

[Musicology]

Firstly, I don't have an idol. An idol stands between me and accepting reality. And I'm very open to knowing what reality is. It's not idolatry. It's just that your ideas of Handel/Bach lack any real evidence.

I am not 'questioning' J.S. Bach's continuous Leipzig Kantor presence when I have never taught it in the first place !!!!

The 'Art of Fugue' for Prussia was written in these years after 1747 about (1748-50) and so were various edits of his earlier music including the chorals. So why am I questioning 'Bach's continuous Leipzig Kantor presence' ??? Who is questioning ? Everyone knows Bach travelled during those years. So what is your point ? He appears to have been unwell during this time - the last 2 years. So says Forkel and various sources. This fact has long been recognised.

The musical notes (Art of Fugue) are indisputably in Bach's own hand, written in a time before his deteriorating vision led to erratic handwriting, probably during that time 1748–1749.

The end of Bach's career was predicted for two reasons. He started to be unwell from around 1748 onwards. And secondly, because his enemies couldn't wait for him to be succeeded by another Kapellmeister. So says the evidence.

I was the one who told you Gottlob Harrer was already interviewed as his successor. And that too is a fact.

So, what exactly am I denying ? Nothing. I am denying only your idea that Handel and Bach were one and the same man.

Are you now questioning JSBach's continuous Leipzig Thomaskirche Kantor presence, the uniqueness and integrity of your "idol" maybe, or perhaps Handel's well known composition of Brockes oratorio ?

The fact is Bach systematically directed Handel's "Brocke's passion" from 1746 to 1749*,the 1748 pasticcio included, and it's up to you, the musicologist, to explain why Wolf (Footnote 42 of his “Bach”) believes that after 31 March 1749 oratoria that were not deemed appropriate for Leipzig’s main churches were performed in the Grand Concerts Hall such as Handel’s Brocke’s passion and Kaiser-Handel Markus pasticcio!

You, who were infact asking yourself not long ago in this thread how Heinrich von Brühl could fortell , on 2 June 1749, the eventual ... decease of Mr. Bach requesting in parallel that his music director, Gottlob Harrer, fill the post of Thomascantor and Director musices.

Or were you perhaps asking me?

*a highly critical period historicaly that defined "Bach's" early "death".

[yanni]

You have convinced me Robert! Wurst making IS a science!

[Musicology]

And you have convinced me of the same Yanni !!!

Antonio Vivaldi/arranged by J.S. Bach
Concerto
BWV 1065/3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Apbf5...eature=related

[yanni]

And another wuerstlein for you:

Bach visited Berlin in 1719 to pay 130 Thalers for a harpsichord purchased by Leopold, Prince of Anhalt-Köthen. At some time during the visit, the composer met with Christian Ludwig and impressed him. In hopes of gaining patronage from the margrave, Bach presented him with a set of concertos on March 24, 1721. Frederick William I preferred the music of George Frideric Handel, however, and Christian Ludwig lacked enough musicians to perform Bach's concertos. Hence the margrave was obliged to decline Bach's offer[4] and the concertos were never performed in Berlin during the composer's lifetime. Nevertheless, the compositions became known as the Brandenburg Concertos after they were found in Brandenburg's archives in the 19th century.[5]

Souvlaki is my speciality!

However, Handel was in London at the time(21st of March 1721) of Bach's presentation of his concerti to the Margrave, thus, accident-prone-helicopter excluded, it appears that your position they were two different persons was correct all along !

"Dovrò dunque morire?"
http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=wnqGtt...eature=related

But, hold on, he could have posted his concerti, could he not?

I am at a loss you see: The verb used, "presented", implies a physical presence somehow and an honest source would have used "mailed" or "send by courrier" if such was the case, isn't it so?

What do your trustworthy sources say?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-pZgI3FeJ0

Bach did in fact "send" his concerti to the Margrave. :"Schickt" is the verb used by the goodsite....

http://www.preussen-chronik.de/episo...02480.html,the

....(#4 source of post 127 above-quote) ie relative wiki article on the Brandenburg concertos is misleading the reader into believing that he was physically present.

He was not! Infact he was taking part in a music contest in the Royal Academy of London "to settle the incipient rivalry between its three house composers", ie his job was in question at the time:

Quoting from http://www.gfhandel.org/chron1.htm.

1721 -- A contest! (36)
23 March : Completes composition of Act 3 of Muzio Scevola (HWV 13). (NOTE: The directors of the Royal Academy decided to settle the incipient rivalry between its three house composers by inviting each to submit one act of a composite opera. Act 1 was composed by Filippo Amadei; Act 2 was composed by Giovanni Bononcini; Act 3 was composed by GFH.) Handel is deemed the victor of the contest.
The contemporary British satirist John Byrom (1691-1763) writes with reference to the Handel-Bononcini rivalry (This feud put the Bononcinists against the Handelists. The Duke of Marlborough and most of the nobility favored Bononcini; but the Prince of Wales, with Alexander Pope and Dr. John Arbuthnot, supported Handel) :
Some say, compar'd to Buononcinny
That Mynheer Handel's but a Ninny.
Others aver, that he to Handel
Is scarcely fit to hold a Candle:
Strange that this difference there should be
Twixt Tweedle-dum and Tweedle-dee!

(NOTE: The last two lines have been attributed to Jonathan Swift and Alexander Pope.)

24 March : J.S. Bach dedicates concertos to the Margrave Christian Ludwig of Brandenburg.
2 April : Advertisements appear in both the Daily Courant and Daily Post:
At the King's Theatre in the Hay-Market, Saturday next, being the 11th Day of April, will be perform'd a new opera call'd MUTIUS SCAEVOLA. Tickets will be deliver'd on Friday, at Mr. White's Chocolate House in St. James Street.

11 April : The première of Muzio Scevola (HWV 13) is interrupted by the announcement of the birth of the Duke of Cumberland to the royal family.
15 April : Muzio Scevola (HWV 13) premires. [KT]
5 July : A new cantata, probably Crudel tiranno amor (HWV 97), is sung by Margherita Durastanti (soprano) at her benefit concert. [KT]
1 November : Opera season opens.
25 November : Radamisto (HWV 12b) is revived. [KT]
28 November : Completes composition of Floridante (HWV 14).
9 December : Floridante (HWV 14) premieres. [KT]
JS Bach marries 2nd wife, Anna Magdalena Wilcke.
Telemann invited by the city of Hamburg to become Kantor of the Johanneum and Director Musices (musical director) of the city's five main churches.
Domenico Scarlatti joins the court of the King of Portugal. [Lisbon]

"Dedicates" is still the wrong translation of "shickt" (aesthetically is a better choice however) the suspicion of "intent to mislead" strengthened by:
a)the insertion of verse between Handel's 23rd March contest and Bach's 24th March letter or dedication and
b) the "ommission" to date the pro Handel decision.

In conclusion:

Twixt Tweedle-dum and Tweedle-dee were one and the same person and Hesiod was right: "The Muses often lie".

If only they wouldn't do it so crudely and so systematically, I add.

END OF SUBJECT.

PS 1 Hope you are well and still reading this thread, Robert: Compared to Bach/Handel's "manufacture", Mozart comes out an angel afterall!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPgB6...eature=related

PS 2: Of note:
-Antonio Cocchi followed to London as his personal physician, 1722 et 1726, Lord Théophile Hastings.

-Samuel Cocceji became Prussia's Kammergerichtspräsident (president of the superior court of justice) in 1723.

[Musicology]

This is one part of a late cantata by J.S. Bach commissioned, written and performed against huge opposition from even the University of Leipzig. Written by the composer of the 'Brandenburg Concertos'. His answer to those wished to ignore his music. You should hear all of it. And, to end, a movement from the concerto BWV 1064. It also ends my contribution here -

Cantata 198

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1Vc4...eature=related

Concerto BWV 1064/1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bem-a...eature=related

As for G.F. Handel, I suggest you read works such as the following -

S. Taylor: ''The Scale of the Indebtedness of G.F. Handel to Works by Other Composers'' (Cambridge University Press -1906)

'All things musical have redemption as its centre and that is their form. So that you reach out - although you see you have already been reached'.(J.S. Bach).

Regards to you Yanni

[yanni]

Bach's TRAUER ODE for the Funeral of Queen Christiane Eberhardine of Poland/Saxony. Performed at a special Memorial Service, the University Paulinerkirche, Leipzig, on October 17th, 1727 with Bach himself at the harpsichord
Libretto by Gottshed (a known opponent of operatic music in general, he made an exception for 198 however!!).

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert,

To enable readers fully appreciate the "theatrical-italian style" and history of "Bach's" cantata 198, you'll have first to discover and disclose the funeral music (and its composer) that accompanied King George I to his last home (Berggarten Mausoleum, Hannover, Saxony) June 1727!

George I's favorite, Handel (responsible or at least blamed for the scandalous quarell between Bordoni and Cuzzoni that interrupted Bononcini's Astianatte on June the 6th, 1727, ending the season) must have been in the company of the King, escaping to Hannover for the last time(suffered a stroke June 9th, died June 11th, was buried the 14th).

"Bach" next is on record 25 August 1727 at the inauguration of Leipzig town council (Ihr Tore zu Zion, BWV 193, hardly suitable for the occasion).

After Queen Christiane's Leipzig funeral October 17th, Handel/Bach returned to London in time for his Riccardo primo, re d’Inghilterra (Richard the First, King of England; HWV 23), premierered London on 11 November 1727.

In the meantime he was commissioned to write(!!) -(original source ple-e-ease!!)- four new anthems for the coronation of King George II, October the 4th, 1727: Another crossing is perhaps possible- July or September-yet uncomfortable-and his presence at the coronation is not on record..

Telemann's "influence" in all above is very likely. Telemann's control of "the industry" at the time is well known whereas his identity still remains a mystery!

The Royal Academy of Music was closed in 1728.

Regards!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i150-...eature=related

[Musicology]

The Venetian/Papally controlled career of G.F. Handel

'Handel's' works supplied through more than 20 composers including wholesale theft of operas performed by Reinhard Keiser - Adonis and Janus, also the same Reinhard Keiser - La forza della virtu - again Reinhard Keiser - Claudius and Nebuchadnezer, Francesco Gasparini - et al - Ambleto & Giovanni Porta Numitore - Carl Heinrich Graun's - Passion, ‘Komt her und schaut’ & Antonio Lotti -, Mass 6, - by Alessandro Scarlatti - ‘Il Pompeo’, - Alessandro Scarlatti - ‘Dafni’ - by Giovanni Bononcini - ‘Il Xerxe’ - by Agostino Steffani - La lotte de Hercole con Acheloo - Miscellaneous MS Sources and the usual inventions of the fraternity elites who have manufactured musical 'history'. Plus at least 200 other works by other composers.

Add to this the following excerpt -

‘’G.F. Handel has ‘borrowed’ a dozen of these works and, I dare say, I shall catch him stealing from them also, as I already have formerly, both from Scarlatti and also from Vinci’

(Charles Jennens, Letter of 17th January 1743 to Edward Holdsworth, shortly after acquiring a substantial number of musical manuscripts from the Roman Catholic Cardinal Pietro Ottoboni).

This is the same Cardinal Ottoboni who (together with 4 other cardinals) patronised the career of Handel while he was in Rome and Venice. This before his first arrival in England. The facts of which were hidden from public knowledge during the start of the Hanoverian dynasty of George 1st onwards. In fact, Handel’s arrival in England began with performing numerous works which are today recognised NOT to be by G.F. Handel. The above librettist of ‘Saul’ and of ‘Messiah’ was not the first to notice this fake aspect of Handel’s career. Which continued at every stage of Handel's career. How unfortunate he did not meet J.S. Bach. But now I think we know why.

Regards

[yanni]

Cantata 198 and BWV 193 are, ofcourse, not the only works by Bach/Handel that clearly show his italian theater music (opera) early learning, influences and preferences, obvious in all his compositions (by others or his own) but they outrank the rest because, as funeral music, they were both much too "light", too "theatrical" if not bohemian for the occasion and the relative tastes of the average north european listener of his time (and they propably still are).

This inherent "problem", obvious in all his music, did not escape the attention of the Leipzig council in 1722 when a new cantor was needed to take the place of Kunau at Thomaskirche: Fears were expressed at the time that Bach's music would be too theatrical for their ideal cantor but employed him nevertheless:
Handel/Bach was "well connected" already. He accepted the post even if it was for him a step downwards in the social scale, and he had little respect for his employers who maintained the same opinion of him and his music to the end:
When the decision was taken to destroy "Bach" for "Handel" in 1750 Councillor Stieglitz expressed the opinion, ten days after Bach’s "death": The school needs a Kantor, not a Kapellmeister.*

BUT

The "within the box" myth of "Bach's" biography fails to explain to satisfaction his -ultimately italian- influences and wants readers to believe he, the idol of german "baroque-church" or "sacred" music http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bo1x-62WmrI spend the rest of his life in a second rate post, practically unknown for almost thirty years there (and the next fifty or so, the hot potato of his double life hard to touch) , depressed, while giving his famous alter ego, Handel, all sorts of names (his "celibacy" even interpreted as homosexuality-Orpheo) for his choice to "survive" in London for eight more years.

Well, evil clowns have controlled music all along and musicologists can be no exception!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert,

Your "music" is the exact opposite of Handel/Bach's but somehow I don't believe that playing the same monotone on your monochord- while evading each and every issue raised -will get you thru the gate to Zion**

Regards.

*Text in italic by Guido De Winne, 2004.

**Meaning Paradise at the time (to avoid any misunderstanding) whereas "Tore" (ie gate) has in the meantime been often interpreted as "tears".


__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____________________________
On Tuesday night in Clackamas County fire fighters were called out after the Oregon City owners of the camel phoned to say that Moses had fallen into a sinkhole 6 to 8 feet (about 2 metres) deep, and was possibly injured.

[Musicology]

Yanni,

The fact is that G.F. Handel's career was stage managed. As already indicated. It was stage managed before Handel even left Germany and at the time when he was recruited by the Italians and by the British. Before he ever arrived in Rome and Venice. And before he ever arrived in England. So say thousands of facts.

And you are telling us G.F. Handel wrote the 'Brandenburg Concertos' !

I think readers can decide this issue for themselves from the evidence. Only some of which I have presented. This must be very embarrasing for your theory. Shall I give you the full list ? You already have about 10% of the evidence. But enough to prove that your theory is wrong.

It seems most honest people want facts, not innuendos. I have provided some. They are documented facts and they are indisputable although little known. And now you have good reason to modify your views. None of which you have acknowledged.

Yanni, most composer heroes of the 18th century were manufactured. With few exceptions. Bach and Zelenka being exceptions.

Anyway, regards

[yanni]

Thanks for reminding me to add to my #130 post above (on the Brandenburg concertos), what Wolf writes on the "matter":

About the beginning of August 1721 he gave a performance of some unspecified kind for Count Heinrich XI Reuss of Schleiz; this may have been arranged by J.S. Koch, the Kantor there, who had held a post at Mühlhausen, though possibly not in Bach’s time there. On 15 June 1721 Bach was the 65th communicant at St Agnus; one ‘Mar. Magd. Wilken’ was the 14th. This may well have been Bach’s future wife – the mistake in the first name is an easy one – but Anna Magdalena makes no formal appearance until 25 September, when Bach and she were the first two among the five godparents of a child called Hahn. This baptism is recorded in three registers. In two of them Anna is described as ‘court singer’, in the third, simply as 'chamber Musician’ ('Musicantin'). In September Anna was again a godmother, to a child called Palmarius; again the registers differ in describing her occupation. Her name does not appear in court accounts until summer 1722, when she is referred to as the Kapellmeister’s wife; her salary (half Bach’s) is noted as paid for May and June 1722*

Would you care completing re timeline of post 130 and then interpret it for the benefit of the readers?

I don't really need to!

Regards.

*Kuhnau, Kantor of the Thomasschule, died 5 June 1722.

[Musicology]

Thank you for completely ignoring my recent posts on the true career of G.F. Handel. A faked career, in fact. Quite typical of 18th century music. But ignoring posts is a tactic you often use when facts get in the way of your speculations. Nothing you have posted supports your theory and therefore we go round and round in circles.

I will post on Post 130 later.

Thanks for reminding me to add to my #130 post above (on the Brandenburg concertos), what Wolf writes on the "matter":

About the beginning of August 1721 he gave a performance of some unspecified kind for Count Heinrich XI Reuss of Schleiz; this may have been arranged by J.S. Koch, the Kantor there, who had held a post at Mühlhausen, though possibly not in Bach’s time there. On 15 June 1721 Bach was the 65th communicant at St Agnus; one ‘Mar. Magd. Wilken’ was the 14th. This may well have been Bach’s future wife – the mistake in the first name is an easy one – but Anna Magdalena makes no formal appearance until 25 September, when Bach and she were the first two among the five godparents of a child called Hahn. This baptism is recorded in three registers. In two of them Anna is described as ‘court singer’, in the third, simply as 'chamber Musician’ ('Musicantin'). In September Anna was again a godmother, to a child called Palmarius; again the registers differ in describing her occupation. Her name does not appear in court accounts until summer 1722, when she is referred to as the Kapellmeister’s wife; her salary (half Bach’s) is noted as paid for May and June 1722*

Would you care completing re timeline of post 130 and then interpret it for the benefit of the readers?

I don't really need to!

Regards.

*Kuhnau, Kantor of the Thomasschule, died 5 June 1722.

Yanni has asked me to comment on his Post 130 although it says nothing that is not already well known. But here goes -

1. Yes, Bach did send the 'Brandenburg' concertos by post. This is a fact already known by every person who has ever read anything of musical history. It is not a revelation. Is it ? It is a plain, indisputable and well known fact. You believe this. I believe this. And so does everyone else. Has anyone ever, even once, suggested differently ? No. What, exactly, is your point here ?

2. You then move on to an alleged musical 'contest' between Bononcini and Handel in London in 1721. (Which everyone who has read about Handel's career already knows also). It does not tell us Handel is J.S. Bach. But you have conveniently forgotten Bononcini was already supplying music in London to.... G.F. Handel ! This fact conveniently forms no part of your post !! The 'support' given to Handel on that occasion (by Romanist occultists such as the Prince of Wales, Alexander Pope, and Dr. John Arbuthnot) is completely ignored also !! Men who had been in contact with Rome and Venice from the earliest days of Handel's stay in Venice and Italy !!! And while Handel the 'protestant' was being treated like a celebrity by no less than 6 cardinals in Rome and Venice this too forms no part of your education. These 'supporters' of the stage managed career of G.F. Handel make your point laughable.

3. 24th March of the same year J.S. Bach dedicates the 'Brandenburg' Concertos to Margrave Christian Ludwig of Brandenburg. Yes Yanni, you have at least got that right. Well done !!

4. Your 'conclusion' is also laughable. You write -

Twixt Tweedle-dum and Tweedle-dee were one and the same person and Hesiod was right: "The Muses often lie".

So, this is Yanni's 'proof' GF Handel and J.S. Bach were one and the same person !!!!!!!!!! I wonder what readers will think of this as 'proof' of anything. It is a thinner argument than to believe we can make chicken soup from the shadow of a chicken !!

And he ends with this -

Antonio Cocchi followed to London as his personal physician, 1722 et 1726, Lord Théophile Hastings.

-Samuel Cocceji became Prussia's Kammergerichtspräsident (president of the superior court of justice) in 1723.

In reply -

I have repeatedly in earlier posts refered to the Cocchi clan - whose job was to stamp out any musical career which was not approved by Rome. I have also, in earlier posts refered to the fact of one Cocchi's employment by Lord Theophile Hastings. (Both of them were up to their eyeballs in occultism and Romanist controlled fraternities). None of which are relevant to this issue.

As for Samuel Cocceji becoming Prussia's Kammergerichtsprasident (President of the Superior Court of Justice) in 1723, this proves only the occultists controlling art and culture were quickly closing any possible recognition of Bach's career. By ignoring his achievements completely. In fact (although you do not mention it) the 'Brandenburg' concertos (like the Musical Offering) were completely ignored by its recipient. As usual. The latter piece being designed to defeat any ordinary composer. A pattern of behaviour which continued, even in England, and especially in western Europe, for many decades after Bach's death in 1750.

In the meantime the fraudulent celebrity Handel became a European musical phenonmenon. Despite the fact (already posted) that he, G.F. Handel, was being massively supplied by operatic and music from the start by over 20 'friendly' composers, all associated with the growing Romanist control of art and culture (in Rome, Venice, London and elsewhere) that had started in Bach's lifetime. A plain, documented, verifiable fact. As I have shown repeatedly. Including a letter of the time from Handel's own librettist in London. And numerous others. Speaking of the use of music recently sent by a Romanist cardinal. How embarrasing for you Yanni !

I must congratulate you for proving the opposite of what you suppose ! The animosity and resistance to every stage of Bach's career is, again, a documented, plain, indisputable fact of history. The 'city of music' finally realised this music decades after Handel, Bach, and all Handel's 'helpers' were long dead.

Such are the facts. And they will forever remain. They assert themselves. As truth always does -

J.S. Bach
Cantata 80
Und Wenn die Welt voll Teufel war
(On Chorale by Martin Luther)

Musical Art !! You will forgive me thinking this too was not written in Rome. Nor by G.F. Handel. Nor even the countless Cocchis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WcDj...eature=related

Regards