The puzzle of the socalled "Bach variations".

[Musicology]

And your speculation that 'Handel was Bach' still lacks any evidence of the role of GF Handel in Leipzig during the many years J.S. Bach was Kapellmeister there ! You simply have no answer. Do you ? At this point I resign from this silly game. Sorry, but I've better things to do.

Regards

If only you would accompany your by now famous conclusions with facts and credible sources Robert.

Bach? Alas his biographers cannot be considered "credible" anymore:

Two biographies have been written by persons who knew Bach, or who interviewed people who had known him personally. 1,2 Bach’s biographies are Nekrolog auf Johann Sebastian Bach (1754), by Bach’s eldest son, Carl Philipp Emanuel, in collaboration with a former pupil of Bach’s, Friedrich Agricola1; and Ueber Johann Sebastian Bachs Leben, Kunst und Kunstwerke (1802), by Johann Nikolaus Forkel.2 The writers of the Nekrolog did not themselves witness much of the last years of Bach’s life. They no longer lived in Bach’s home; both had worked since 1747 as musicians in Potsdam. Forkel relied heavily on the Nekrolog in writing his biography but also interviewed many persons who had known Bach, including Bach’s sons Carl Philipp Emanuel and Wilhelm Friedemann*. All later biographies of Bach are based on these work

*....and of course Johann Christian, aka the London Bach! All counter reformists btw eversince Frederick took over Silesia.

Glad you have recovered from your helicopter accident, please advise on Judas Maccabeus last 1747 perfomances, will you?
Handel was in Germany later on in 1747, visiting Frederick, and so was Johann Sebastian Bach, "composer for the royal court of Poland and the Electoral court of Saxony, Kapellmeister and Director of Choral Music in Leipzig" (1741) only to be buried anonymously in 1750 in a backyard somewhere.

Everything is amiss in this scenario of yours!

[yanni]

Is that another killer argument or what?

Show me first what evidence leads you to conclude that JSBach stayed continuously in Leipzig during the "many years".

There is none for the simple reason he was often "abroad" in London as Handel or, as he himself admits (my previous post), running after the Elector of Saxony to secure his Kappelmeister appointment there (in Sachsen-Gotha). That's when- not just his sons but -he himself as well turned roman catholic like Augustus III did, upon becoming King of Poland (1733 if I rightly remember). He wouldn't have gotten the post otherwise.

Resignation accepted (for the nth time).

Regards

And your speculation that 'Handel was Bach' still lacks any evidence of the role of GF Handel in Leipzig during the many years J.S. Bach was Kapellmeister there ! You simply have no answer. Do you ? At this point I resign from this silly game. Sorry, but I've better things to do.

Regards

[Musicology]

Yanni,

Let us all resign ourselves to the fact that reality is greater than fiction. If Bach was G.F. Handel we must also explain the following -

"1707 - Herr Johann Sebastian Bach, duly appointed organist at the Church of St. Blasius in the Imperial Free City of Muhlhausen, still single at the time, youngest surviving son and lawful issue of the late Mr. Johann Ambrosius Bach, Musician to the Prince of Saxe-Eisenach, and Mistress Maria Barbara, youngest daughter and lawful issue of the late Master Johann Michael Bach, organist in Gehren. Were united in marriage in Dornheim on October 17. The fees were remitted." [quoted in David, p. 56]


//

And what about this -

The widow Anna Magdalena Bach's resources were pitifully augmented by the payment to her of 21 thaler. 21 gr., due to her late husband Bach for salary at the time of his death in 1750, and an equal amount for the surrender of her claim to occupy the Cantor's quarters in the Thomasschule for six months thereafter. Her own children at this time were still unable to maintain her, while her step sons do not appear to have admitted an obligation to do so. Yet, her poverty was notorious: Two years later, on 19th May 1752, the civic Council of Leipzig paid her 40 thaler. "in view of her poverty", and as the sum covered purchase of "certain pieces of music", was seemingly reduced to selling her husband's manuscripts. [Terry, pp. 276-7]

/..


"Bach did not make what is called a brilliant success in the world. He had, on the one hand, a lucrative office, but he had, on the other, a great number of children to maintain and to educate from the income of it. He neither had nor sought other resources. He was too much occupied with his business and his art to think of pursuing those ways which, perhaps, for a man like him, especially in his times, would have led to a gold mine. If he had thought fit to travel, he would (as even one of his enemies said) have drawn upon himself the admiration of the whole world. But he loved instead a quiet domestic life, constant and uninterrupted occupation with his art, and he was, as we have said of his ancestors, a man of few wants." (JN Forkel)

Some things are said, others heard.

Regards

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=4zXA...eature=related

Is that another killer argument or what?

Show me first what evidence leads you to conclude that JSBach stayed continuously in Leipzig during the "many years".

There is none for the simple reason he was often "abroad" in London as Handel or, as he himself admits (my previous post), running after the Elector of Saxony to secure his Kappelmeister appointment there (in Sachsen-Gotha). That's when- not just his sons but -he himself as well turned roman catholic like Augustus III did, upon becoming King of Poland (1733 if I rightly remember). He wouldn't have gotten the post otherwise.

Resignation accepted (for the nth time).

Regards

[yanni]

"We" have already covered -the credibility of- what's considered "original Bach sources" and their creators, Robert, Forkel included, but I will go as far as commenting on one of your two new "solid" sources:

Hans T.David's(1902-1967) work on Bach can be traced back to the "Bach Gesellschaft" and their founders, Moritz Hauptmann, cantor of St. Thomas' in Leipzig (as from 1842), Otto Jahn, author of a noted biography of Mozart, Carl Ferdinand Becker, teacher at the Leipzig Conservatory and the composer Robert Schumann.

Hauptmann also was a professor of music theory at the conservatoire founded by Felix Mendelssohn (who had every interest to promote "Bach", as already discussed too)!

So I decided not to bother checking also your "Terry" source next, leaving the task of unravelling your "grove-ling pile" to yourgoodself!

Alternatively- having refused already my invitation to provide concrete evidence on Bach's continuous uninterupted stay in Leipzig for his last twenty years- why don't you try persuading our readers on Handel's permanent stay in London for the same re period?

Here is the best, imo, web source for that, ("best" but for the fact 1745, 1746 events re "Gluck-Saint Germain-spying" are left mostly "uncovered")":

http://ichriss.ccarh.org/HRD/1730.htm (By Elias Chrysochoidis!)



PS "Reality greater than fiction" is a loose statement, propably wrong too if you measure "greatness" in $s as per custom.....

....and it's this same "greater reality" that hides "Handel/Bach" and every other 18th century music master, a "Koch-Mendelsohn", little grocer-big lie, "reality" that also created "Rousseau, Grimm, Gluck, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Casanova" and countless others, and myths like "Opera phantom" and "Comte de Saint Germain".

And they did not limit themselves to music, alas!

Yanni,

Let us all resign ourselves to the fact that reality is greater than fiction. If Bach was G.F. Handel we must also explain the following -

"1707 - Herr Johann Sebastian Bach, duly appointed organist at the Church of St. Blasius in the Imperial Free City of Muhlhausen, still single at the time, youngest surviving son and lawful issue of the late Mr. Johann Ambrosius Bach, Musician to the Prince of Saxe-Eisenach, and Mistress Maria Barbara, youngest daughter and lawful issue of the late Master Johann Michael Bach, organist in Gehren. Were united in marriage in Dornheim on October 17. The fees were remitted." [quoted in David, p. 56]


//

And what about this -

The widow Anna Magdalena Bach's resources were pitifully augmented by the payment to her of 21 thaler. 21 gr., due to her late husband Bach for salary at the time of his death in 1750, and an equal amount for the surrender of her claim to occupy the Cantor's quarters in the Thomasschule for six months thereafter. Her own children at this time were still unable to maintain her, while her step sons do not appear to have admitted an obligation to do so. Yet, her poverty was notorious: Two years later, on 19th May 1752, the civic Council of Leipzig paid her 40 thaler. "in view of her poverty", and as the sum covered purchase of "certain pieces of music", was seemingly reduced to selling her husband's manuscripts. [Terry, pp. 276-7]

/..


"Bach did not make what is called a brilliant success in the world. He had, on the one hand, a lucrative office, but he had, on the other, a great number of children to maintain and to educate from the income of it. He neither had nor sought other resources. He was too much occupied with his business and his art to think of pursuing those ways which, perhaps, for a man like him, especially in his times, would have led to a gold mine. If he had thought fit to travel, he would (as even one of his enemies said) have drawn upon himself the admiration of the whole world. But he loved instead a quiet domestic life, constant and uninterrupted occupation with his art, and he was, as we have said of his ancestors, a man of few wants." (JN Forkel)

Some things are said, others heard.

Regards

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=4zXA...eature=related

[Musicology]

Thank you Yanni.

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=WsT3...eature=related

[yanni]

In the other thread, you were saying something of "a man dying in Prague" related to Bach's eye operation. Care to elaborate?

[Musicology]

Yanni,

Of the life of ‘John Taylor' (supposed eye-surgeon) after 1761 (when his official 'autobiography' first appeared), little is known with certainty. There are numerous published proofs in German newspapers that he was kicked out of various cities there as a fraud, a charlatan, and died either in Paris or in a monastery near Prague in 1772. According to various accounts he was blind himself at the time.

(For the Prague monastery story of 'Taylor's' death see SNYDER, 'C., Archs. Ophthalmic'., 1963, Vol. 69, p. 831'. Also refered to in. WOODS, S., 'British. Journal of Ophthal'., 1930, Vol. 14, p. 193).

'Taylor' was from the very first closely associated with leading ecclesiastical authorities in Rome. Fraternity members themselves. As he was in England, Poland, France and elsewhere. That is where his name of ‘Chevalier’ Taylor first came from. Rome. He was also in close association with the King of Poland. And Paris (France) was (unknown to many people) under the rule of the British monarchy during all of the 18th century as it had been for centuries before. British kings finally stopped ruling France in 1801. For example, see the text of the Treaty of Versailles (1783) made after the end of the American War of Independence which shows clearly in its text (the very first paragraph) that the King of Britain (George 3rd) is (amongst other things), ‘Elector of the Holy Roman Empire’ , 'King of France', and also ‘Arch Treasurer’ of the Holy Roman Empire !!

As for the role of France in the British Empire and its close association with the Holy Roman Empire (usually through the bankers of Hamburg and Paris) this is an area that shows right from the start the idea of a ‘Protestant’ king of Britain (or one from Hanover) was really a fiction invented for the public. All British kings and queens were well known to be bound by an agreement made with the papacy back in Norman times which committed them to be loyal supporters of the papacy. Henry 8th did not change this. That too was staged managed. It merely surrendered England to Venetian occultism. But that too is ignored in history books.

J.S. Bach was almost certainly a victim of the cultural counter-reformation, at the hands of evil men, just as surely as G.F. Handel rapidly became one of its created musical icons. That is gone now. But what remains is greater.

The fact Bach's sons became closely associated with England and with the British Empire (often through Hamburg, Rome and London) is clear evidence of the role of the British in German affairs and the role of occult fraternities long before the end of the Holy Roman Empire. It was from the hostility to JS Bach (coming from virtually everywhere and especially from Leipzig University and elsewhere) that they, his sons, turned to the British. A big mistake.

The British Empire was a Venetian/Roman construction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UkA99c9C-A

In the other thread, you were saying something of "a man dying in Prague" related to Bach's eye operation. Care to elaborate?

June 1749 - Leipzig - Church authorities in the city had already interviewed one * Gottlob Harrer for the 'future filling of the post of the Kapellmeister upon the eventual decease of Herr Bach' !!!!!

How extraordinary is that ????

27th March 1750 - 'Taylor' arrives in Leipzig

28th March 1750 - 'Taylor' gives public lecture in Leipzig on eye surgery

April 1750 - J.S. Bach is repeatedly operated on by 'Taylor'

8th April 1750 - 'Taylor' leaves Leipzig

14th April - 'Taylor' arrives in Berlin

Late April 1750 - Taylor is deported from Germany for being a medical charlatan.

7th July 1750 - J.S. Bach dies.

* (The same Harrer was in fact installed as Kapellmeister at Michaelmas in 1750, shortly after Bach's death).

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=qmSG...eature=related

///

[yanni]

Like our previous heroes, Taylor's biography as well raises more questions than answers supplied.

He was King George's II personal eye physician yet he was attacked , as a Pretender, by Horace Walpole in 1758 (when he operated with others on Handel, as he claims).

Sometime later he operated on Edward Gibbon, was closely related to the equally mysterious father* of "our" van Swieten (personal physician** of Maria Theresa of Austria), died blind in Praque, our "Myslivecek, Rossler, Casanova etc" Praque.

Everyone associated with "Bach's" biography was furthermore a "mystery", their own identities and biographies quite unsourced and "limited" in detail: Marpurg, the one who wrote the forword on Bach's "Art of Fugue" (1751,2) and Telemann, who certainly knew both Bach and Handel well and with whom Handel allegedly corresponded December 1750 on his return from Europe after his alleged accident.

Add them to "Bach's" alleged sons, Wieland, Forkel, Koch etc etc, ie Bach's only "original sources" .

The whole 18th cent "history" concerning all our heroes was "manufactured", Bach and Handel included.

Samuel von Cocceji was in control of "Prussia" long before becoming chief chancellor in 1747.

Have patience.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PS

Re King George 3rd, ‘Elector of the Holy Roman Empire’ , 'King of France' and ‘Arch Treasurer’ of the Holy Roman Empire: You still have to provide a palatable explanation of Prince of Wales's noticeable bow on first receiving Haydn in London, January 1791 (promoted by Salomon), his father offering lodgings to Haydn in Windsor Palace later on in 1794. http://www.haydnfestival.at/haydn_en...doc_id=1034865


*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerard_van_Swieten

** Just like "Rousseau-Hennin-Helvetius's" father who was the doctor of Maria Lecszynska, queen of France. See post 6 of http://www.online-literature.com/for...threadid=43550

"Helvetius" small timeline abstract:

Francis I dies August 18, 1765: Holy Roman Emperor and Grand Duke of Tuscany, also known as Francis III Stephen, Duke of Lorraine, the second son of Leopold Joseph, duke of Lorraine, and his wife Elizabeth Charlotte, daughter of Philippe I, duc d’Orléans and Elizabeth Charlotte, Princess Palatine. (Parents of Marie Antoinette)

Rousseau:His house in Motiers was stoned on the night of September 6, 1765 – he took refuge with the philosopher David Hume in Great Britain.

Helvetius visits England Sept 1765. p241, Correspondance générale d'Helvétius by Claude-Adrien Helvétius,Anne-Catherine Helvétius,Alan Dainard,Jean Orsoni,David Smith

LETTRE DE P. M. HENNIN A VOLTAIRE. A Paris» le 9 octobre 1765.

....new envoy at Geneva, M. Hennin, who arrived on December 16, 1765, whose mediation did not prosper...THE LIFE OF VOLTAIRE

[Musicology]

Yanni,

Certainly we with patience possess our souls. And with recognition of the divine we rejoice.

Regards

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wraO_...eature=related

[yanni]

Between possessions and rejoicing, do remember if you can the rules of carrying out a conversation, let alone providing answers concerning your alleged musicology interest.

Amen.

[Musicology]

Yanni,

In a world stuffed with endless inventions, exaggerations and manufactured reputations we are glad musical appreciation and documenting its history are not the same as the subject of sausage production.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlKcM...eature=related

[yanni]

When you visit the Wartburg Castle, located on a high and narrow Rock Cliff, 220 meter above Eisenach and part of the UNESCO World Heritage, you will be reminded of Martin Luther, who translated the New Testament from Greek into German in only eleven weeks, during his not quite voluntary stay from 1521 – 1522. He was taken into a protective custody for about 2 years. Like no other castle in Germany, Wartburg is connected with the history of Germany. Not only Luther and Bach contributed to this, but also the later canonized Elisabeth from Thuringia, who lived here from 1211 – 1227 and Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, who visited Wartburg a couple of times. In the 19th Century huge restorations began and new buildings were added and the Castle became the shape you can still see today. Many activities and exhibitions are featured throughout the year on the Wartburg and it’s always worth a visit.

Another highlight of a very different kind is the visit to the Lutherstuben Erlebnisrestaurant.You will enter a Restaurant that sends you back to the days when Martin Luther was still around. Authentic ambience, costumes and even the speech from the Middle Ages are cultivated here and will make your stay a great experience. The food and drinks and the service are also authentic and of high quality. Where else would you get a meter of very delicious Thuringian Sausage and drink your wine from a clay jug, while watching the chefs cooking more culinary delights? No better place to end your day in Eisenach and Wartburg Castle

Is it wrong to assume that Bache was raised on "wurst" too?

Speaking of Bache, this belongs in this thread really:

As JSBACH's fan and musiclogist, do you know if, after his alleged July 1750 death, his sons took part in the theatrical-musical festivities that followed immediately after in Prussia, lasting practicaly to the end of the year?

Agricola, his alleged pupil and "creator", another "mystery" just like Marpurg(aka...), certainly did (take part) along with most of our other heroes such as Algarotti, Voltaire, Collini, CLCocceji, La Barberina, Gluck's "Lobkowitz" etc etc.

There were even onstage fireworks performed, much like they used to do in Handel's London*.

Not to forget Marpurg's patron(!), count Rothenburg(aka....!), Frederick's liebling advisor in foreign affairs ("the two" having just succeeded in bringing Prussia closer to France).


*Wiki: 'The Music for the Royal Fireworks (HWV 351) is an orchestral suite composed by George Frideric Handel in 1749 under contract of George II of Great Britain for the fireworks in London's Green Park on 27 April 1749. It was to celebrate the end of the War of the Austrian Succession and the signing of the Treaty of Aix-la-Chapelle in 1748.'

Jemima Grey was present:

"…the Number, the Sizes & various Forms of the Rockets were quite surprising, one Explosion particularly which they say was of Six Thousand was beyond all Imagination, & excepting to poor Mrs. Talbot who was frightened out of all her Wits (for it was not indeed a very Quiet Amusement) they were no less Beautiful."

Add "Keyserlingk" to the guest list btw and "Condillac" too.

[Musicology]

Yanni,

When posts lead in a definite direction they are more valuable. But others read like the formal announcement of the arrival of an emperor - described as Emperor 'F', King of 'X', 'Prince of 'Y', Grand Duke of 'B', son of 'D', Lord of 'A', and great uncle of Count 'J'. In some kinds of society such protocol says everything but in others it's a frightful bore because it leads nowhere.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqp2_LaYoSU

[yanni]

This thread definitely proceeds towards proving the common identity of JSBach and Handel, Robert. Like it or not, they were serving the Kings or Emperors of their time (in more fields than just music).

If researching for this truth bores some societies, as you say, it's because such societies serve the big lie and have no interest on "truth" or clue on Handel/Bach's* main message on education of Kings: "RICERCAR".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Musical_Offering

Wish you luck manufacturing the "Mozart wurst" or whatever, hanging it on Rome to cure**



*Humphrey F. Sassoon has compared the theme issued by Frederick II to the theme of an A minor fugue by G.F. Handel published in Six fugues or voluntarys for organ or harpsichord. Sassoon notes that "Handels theme is much shorter than the Kings, but its musical architecture is uncannily similar: jumps followed by a descending chromatic scale." He also elaborates on their additional similarities, leading Sassoon to suggest that Bach used Handels Fuga V as a structural model or guide for the Musical Offerings Ricercar a 6, and that Fuga Vs musical concepts may also have influenced Bachs development of the Ricercar a 3.Humphrey F. Sassoon (2003). JS Bachs Musical Offering and the Source of Its Theme: Royal Peculiar. The Musical Times, Vol. 144, No. 1885, pp. 38-39

**http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Sassoon

[Musicology]

Yanni,

The theme issued by Frederic 2nd to Bach was barren, awkward, and seemed to offer no potential for great development. In fact it had been calculated in advance to defeat and criticise Bach and his music. Publicly. Since Bach's reputation amongst musicians was that of a man who could improvise on virtually any theme. Bach's immediate reply when these notes were presented to him was to say that it could be done only on a certain level immediately because of its content deserved to be worked on by him later. (This challenge had been pre-arranged by his various musical critics). But it did not succeed. As for Handel, Frederic 2nd's court was already a base of British imperialism at the time of Bach's arrival there. This is a plain fact. (There in Prussia was British Ambassador Extraordinaire and Plenipotentiary Sir Andrew Mitchell. You do know what a 'Plenipotentiary' is, don't you - 'one who acts with full power'). Britain (through it's Empire) was virtually funding Prussia at this time. Complete with the hugely famous music of 'Handel'. It was really a trap and Bach was well aware of it. Designed to rubbish Bach and all he musically represented. To which Bach eventually replied. In one of the most remarkable musical works ever conceived of.

http://www.harpercollins.com/author/...e=readingGuide

Bach's musical answer to that 'impossible' commission is musically in another universe than the 'Handel' work to which you refer.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2gTOrKl43I

This thread definitely proceeds towards proving the common identity of JSBach and Handel, Robert. Like it or not, they were serving the Kings or Emperors of their time (in more fields than just music).

If researching for this truth bores some societies, as you say, it's because such societies serve the big lie and have no interest on "truth" or clue on Handel/Bach's* main message on education of Kings: "RICERCAR".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Musical_Offering

Wish you luck manufacturing the "Mozart wurst" or whatever, hanging it on Rome to cure**



*Humphrey F. Sassoon has compared the theme issued by Frederick II to the theme of an A minor fugue by G.F. Handel published in Six fugues or voluntarys for organ or harpsichord. Sassoon notes that "Handels theme is much shorter than the Kings, but its musical architecture is uncannily similar: jumps followed by a descending chromatic scale." He also elaborates on their additional similarities, leading Sassoon to suggest that Bach used Handels Fuga V as a structural model or guide for the Musical Offerings Ricercar a 6, and that Fuga Vs musical concepts may also have influenced Bachs development of the Ricercar a 3.Humphrey F. Sassoon (2003). JS Bachs Musical Offering and the Source of Its Theme: Royal Peculiar. The Musical Times, Vol. 144, No. 1885, pp. 38-39

**http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Sassoon