Heaven and Hell -Are they for real?

[LMK]

I've just read an interesting article in the UK's Independant newspaper on the idea of Heaven.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...e-1949399.html

It says that the Christian/ Jewish/ Muslim version of heaven is an invented idea - around 165BC, which it claims arose due to the insecurity of burial rituals during the Greek occupation of Jewish lands.


It quotes some stats:

83% of US citizens and 51% of UK citizens believe in heaven.

Of these 71% believe it's an actual place

41% of these think their cats and dogs etc will follow them there.

It doesn't say that belief in Heaven implies a belief in Hell. What do you think - does it?

Is the idea of Heaven wish fulfillment, and what about near death experiences?

Are ideas of heaven, and by implication hell, too woolly?

It is my hope that you are not asking if Heaven and Hell are real, but whether various forum members believe in them.

If you are really asking the question of real, I would be hard pressed to accept a single response seriously.

What one believes and what is real may not be the same. I may have faith that when I sit on the park bench it will have been engineered in such a way as to hold my average weight. However, if time, weather, tampering or error in construction, play a significant roll, then I may find myself sprawled on the ground, wondering, "What just happened?"

Faith that good (help) is greater than evil (harm) is a personal guide and those who truly have faith and live by that, I believe, are better for it.

Is Heaven and Hell real? I have no idea. I know what I think, what I believe, but to someone else's reality...I simply do not know.

I will suggest that if one believes in God, then heaven may be eternity in the presence of God and hell the eternal absence from God.

[The Atheist]

What one believes and what is real may not be the same. I may have faith that when I sit on the park bench it will have been engineered in such a way as to hold my average weight. However, if time, weather, tampering or error in construction, play a significant roll, then I may find myself sprawled on the ground, wondering, "What just happened?"

I do find it ironic that you create a very poor analogy like that, yet not realise that people's faith in heaven & hell are a lot weaker even than the kind of irrational faith that would cause someone to plonk down on a rusted and weatherbeaten seat. At least someone who irrationally believed that anything manufactured will last forever and be safe would have some kind of baseline for their stupidity - almost all of the time, the idea that manufactured goods are safe is correct.

Not to mention that men make park benches, not engineering. Engineering is a process, not a guarantee.

[Paulclem]

It is my hope that you are not asking if Heaven and Hell are real, but whether various forum members believe in them.

If you are really asking the question of real, I would be hard pressed to accept a single response seriously.

What one believes and what is real may not be the same. I may have faith that when I sit on the park bench it will have been engineered in such a way as to hold my average weight. However, if time, weather, tampering or error in construction, play a significant roll, then I may find myself sprawled on the ground, wondering, "What just happened?"

Faith that good (help) is greater than evil (harm) is a personal guide and those who truly have faith and live by that, I believe, are better for it.

Is Heaven and Hell real? I have no idea. I know what I think, what I believe, but to someone else's reality...I simply do not know.

I will suggest that if one believes in God, then heaven may be eternity in the presence of God and hell the eternal absence from God.

What do you mean by believe in them and real? If someone believes in heaven and hell, then don't they also think it is real.

I will suggest that if one believes in God, then heaven may be eternity in the presence of God and hell the eternal absence from God

This is not what people who are asked respond with. The article questions the ideas people have about heaven - and hell by implication. Heaven in the usual conception is thought of as a place where relatives and pets are re-united etc The article questions the development of this.

[LMK]

This is not what people who are asked respond with. The article questions the ideas people have about heaven - and hell by implication. Heaven in the usual conception is thought of as a place where relatives and pets are re-united etc The article questions the development of this.

I apologize if I have offended anyone by making a suggestion (offering an idea) in response to the title of the thread "Heaven and Hell - Are they for real?"

Put quite simply if a person believes in God and believes in Heaven and Hell (and that should not be an assumption), couldn't that person believe that God is all things, and further if God is all things and Heaven is being in the presence of all things then might it mean to that person that they would be reunited to all who have gone before them (all things)?

Or, perhaps that being in the presence of God, no longer requires those things that were needed prior to death in this world.

There are many more thoughts (ideas) to explore on this, but given the censure from Paulclem, perhaps I will stop here.

[Paulclem]

I apologize if I have offended anyone by making a suggestion (offering an idea) in response to the title of the thread "Heaven and Hell - Are they for real?"

Put quite simply if a person believes in God and believes in Heaven and Hell (and that should not be an assumption), couldn't that person believe that God is all things, and further if God is all things and Heaven is being in the presence of all things then might it mean to that person that they would be reunited to all who have gone before them (all things)?

Or, perhaps that being in the presence of God, no longer requires those things that were needed prior to death in this world.

There are many more thoughts (ideas) to explore on this, but given the censure from Paulclem, perhaps I will stop here.

I thought I was asking a serious question not censuring you. I was referring to the repondants according to the article who don't spreak of being in the prescence of God, but describe heaven in more concrete terms such as a place where relatives are reunited and their pets now live. It might be a description that reflects the relative unfamiliarity of nominal Christians with what it actually says in the bible, but I couldn't say for sure.

I can assure you that I was not intending to insult or censure you, but prompt debate.

[Lacra]

The topic of this thread is "Heaven and Hell - Are They for Real?" I will just add my thoughts here related to this issue.
People in both old and modern times have engaged themselves in studying and defining the Heaven and the Hell. Thus, we now have various points of views on the Hereafter.
However, you don't need to study or to be a scholar in order to believe in the reality of these two unseen spiritual locations. The religious feeling is original in Man at any time or age and whatever the degree of his culture. I am not sure if it is religious instinct rather than a feeling but I know that it is deeply rooted inside humanity's soul. There doesn't exist old civilisation without the belief in Heaven and Hell: all of them had this double system.
For me, Heaven and Hell are more real than this world. They are actual places, not a mere state of mind or a spiritual entity. They exist at the present time and will continue to exist forever. They will never pass away and their inhabitants will remain there forever.
It is not a hope to live in Hereafter but it is a certitude, I am certain that after the wordly life comes to an end, I will be following one of two ways of life prepared for us in the afterworld.

[Paulclem]

Heaven and Hell -Are they for real?
I've just read an interesting article in the UK's Independant newspaper on the idea of Heaven.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...e-1949399.html

It says that the Christian/ Jewish/ Muslim version of heaven is an invented idea - around 165BC, which it claims arose due to the insecurity of burial rituals during the Greek occupation of Jewish lands.


It quotes some stats:

83% of US citizens and 51% of UK citizens believe in heaven.

Of these 71% believe it's an actual place

41% of these think their cats and dogs etc will follow them there.

It doesn't say that belief in Heaven implies a belief in Hell. What do you think - does it?

Is the idea of Heaven wish fulfillment, and what about near death experiences?

Are ideas of heaven, and by implication hell, too woolly?

Hi Lacra. I have quoted the original post above. The article from where my question originated stems from the assertion by the author that the idea of heaven and hell as we conceive it today has not existed for very long. It can be traced back to a particular biblical time, but it bears little resemblance to modern conceptions.

[Lacra]

I wanted to read the article, Paul, but it didn't want to open, seems that the posted link is broken, can you please post it again? Thank you.

[Redzeppelin]

I will suggest that if one believes in God, then heaven may be eternity in the presence of God and hell the eternal absence from God.

They're both real and this is the correct answer in terms of what their "composition" is.

The only caveat I would add is that whether one "believes" in God or not does not change the fact that s/he ends up in one of these two destinations.

[Paulclem]

I wanted to read the article, Paul, but it didn't want to open, seems that the posted link is broken, can you please post it again? Thank you.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...e-1949399.html

If this doesn't work, then the link on the first page works.

They're both real and this is the correct answer in terms of what their "composition" is.

The only caveat I would add is that whether one "believes" in God or not does not change the fact that s/he ends up in one of these two destinations.

The article questions whether the common view of heaven or hell is merely a modern construct with no basis in the bible.

[Redzeppelin]

The article questions whether the common view of heaven or hell is merely a modern construct with no basis in the bible.

Thanks for the clarification.

[NikolaiI]

Heaven is real - Hell is not real. Many people in this world think this is the only world, but there are many worlds. There are infinite worlds, infinite dimensions, as life is infinite, as there is infinite existence. There is only one reality, which is infinite. This world is most-finite - the only finite. This universe seems infinite but our universe is just the most-finite point of the infinite. The one and only reality is infinite peace, bliss, knowledge, and existence - this world, this reality is just an illusion. The only hells that exist are illusion, and temporary - they are not reality. Certainly not a permanent, eternal physical place. That's a false idea, nothing like that exists.

[Paulclem]

Heaven is real - Hell is not real. Many people in this world think this is the only world, but there are many worlds. There are infinite worlds, infinite dimensions, as life is infinite, as there is infinite existence. There is only one reality, which is infinite. This world is most-finite - the only finite. This universe seems infinite but our universe is just the most-finite point of the infinite. The one and only reality is infinite peace, bliss, knowledge, and existence - this world, this reality is just an illusion. The only hells that exist are illusion, and temporary - they are not reality. Certainly not a permanent, eternal physical place. That's a false idea, nothing like that exists.

The OP contains the article from the Independant. The contention is that the usual formulation of Heaven hell does not tally with biblical texts.

One of the points made is that hellish conditions exist on earth - fire, flood, earthquakes, war, oppression. If you beleive in a hereafter, or reincarnation, then the possibility exists of hell after this life.

As to your post:

this reality is just an illusion


Illusion or not - pain and suffering can still be experienced. Presumably then, the same goes for heaven and hell?

[Alexander III]

"I, also, see it difficult how any reasonable person could disagree with the conclusions reached.

The fool says in his heart, “There is no God” (Psalm 14:1)."


My grandpa told me something like this when I was 8, except it went like this

The fool says in his heart, “There is no Santa Claus”

Boy was I in for a surprise...

I also love the fact that no one responded to the athiest's Scotsman's fallacy link. Funny how logic and reason scares people away.

But in all seriousness, let us follow the bibbles logic.

Live as an atheist and there is no god, you die and become nothing

Live as a christian and there is no god, you die and become nothing

Live as a christian and there is a god, you die and go to heaven

Live as an atheist and there is a god, you die and go to hell for eternal suffering


So logically just before you die, believe in god, so your good. As was pointed out on this thread earlier it doesn't matter how you live as long as you believe before you die, so making peace with god just before death, just incase seems the best option to me. And God, according to the Bible, finds it fine to, rape, kill, whatever, just believe in him.

[Paulclem]

Hellish states certainly exist for some people on earth. It's more a question of do they exist in a hearafter? If you believe in some kind of life after death - then the possibility of there being hellish conditions exists. If you don't, then there is just the hell on earth idea.

Heaven is a bit more problematic. Does anyone live a heavenly life? Some possibly - but this woud be very much down to the definition of the one expereincing. So if heavenly states exist on earth, then if you beieve in some kind of life after death, the possibility of heaven also presents itself.