Heaven and Hell -Are they for real?

[Paulclem]

It a part of faith to believe in it . I believe in the existence of life hereafter.. and in Heaven .. and of the hell too.
And everyone will get what he works for in this life.

This is the attitude of the complacent in my view. There are so many people for whom life was begun at a disadvantage, who don't live very long, who suffer terrible circumstances that they don't have the opportunity to work for anything positive.

It's the same as saying God gives the burdens to those who can stand it, or if it is God's will etc etc. It's all very well to cite such things from the perspective of relative security and comfort, but very different for those whom circumstances are less positive.

Ok - belief is a personal matter and rather unarguable, but can the question of heaven and hell though be indicated by inference or a different kind of logic?

The Atheist has stated his views as a scientific sceptic, and others have stated their views based on belief. Is there a middle ground for discussion?

[The Atheist]

Things that can't be proved wrong is right .

So, the invisible pink unicorn is real after all!

Atheist ! Is that the best you can do ... Someone with your intelligence can think of other ways to make it through ... Don't you even wish !

That's actually an important question, and one which I do get asked occasionally - why don't I even wish for heaven to be real?

I cannot imagine a worse torture than to live eternally.

Not try to convince u but coz i know that we can choose to be in heaven and work for it .

Yes, it's a beautiful theory, but it doesn't actually bode that well under logical examination. If a murderer may be "forgiven" by accepting Jesus into his life, I wonder how an eight year old rape/murder victim will feel when his next door neighbour in heaven is his murderer.

The Atheist has stated his views as a scientific sceptic, and others have stated their views based on belief. Is there a middle ground for discussion?

Well, there are only three positions: atheist, agnostic or theist, so one must examine agnosticism as a middle ground.

Some of the senior theologians in the Church of England support the agnostic position, and even Rowan W has come out and said that belief in things as central as the virgin birth and resurrection of Jesus need not be insisted upon.

The problem, as I see it, is that agnosticism as a considered preference becomes a default theism - which is why Anglicans like it so much.

The "I don't know or care" kind of agnosticism doesn't really count, and I like terms like apatheism* or coproagnostic** to describe those people, as agnosticism is a statement about knowledge of god rather than just an "I don't know".

Suggesting that knowledge cannot be known becomes a default theist position, because it is attributing a finite or fixed value on knowledge, and the only way that can be possible is if a divine/sepreme being is at the top of the tree, deciding what can and cannot be known.

The only possibility of middle ground is for atheists to give way and allow religion a free pass.

As I've repeatedly said, if theism could show that it is capable of being a non-caustic force in society, I'd gladly allow it that free pass, so the ball is firmly in religion's court.

*Apathetic atheism - does not believe in god, but doesn't consider the question.

**Doesn't know, doesn't give a ****!

[hoope]

The concept of heaven and hell consequently present a material image rather than a spiritual image of things to be. Heaven is presented, according to their concept, as an immeasurably large garden literally abounding in beautiful trees casting eternal shadows under which rivers will flow. The rivers would be of milk and honey. The garden will be fruit bearing and all man may desire of fruits would be his at his command. The meat would be that of birds of all sorts; it is only for one to wish which meat he particularly craves. Female companions of exceeding beauty and refinement would be provided to the pious men, with no limit imposed on the number, which will be decided according to their capacity. As many as they can cope with will be theirs. What would they do? How would they relate with each other? Will they bear children or lead a barren life of enjoyment? These are all the moot questions. The enjoyment, as it is conceived, is intensely sensual. No work to be performed, no labour to be wasted, no effort to be made. A perfect life (if such life can be called perfect) of complete and total indolence, with the option of overeating and over-drinking, because also wine will be flowing close to the rivers of milk and honey. No fear of dyspepsia or intoxication! Reclining on heavenly cushions of silk and brocade, they will while their time away in eternal bliss -- but what an eternal bliss!

In Islam, there are others who categorically reject this naive understanding of the Quranic references to heaven, and prove with many a reference to verses of the Holy Quran that what it describes is just metaphorical imagery which has no carnality about it. In fact the Holy Quran makes it amply clear that the form of existence of the life to come will be so different from all known forms of life here on earth, that it is beyond human imagination even to have the slightest glimpse of the otherworldly realities.

In heaven as described in divine book , there is what a mind can't imagine.. what an eye has never seen and what has never been heard about.
We can't visualize many things with our small limited brain.. which from any small tumor can die !


The atheistic view is outside the domain of this discussion.

Its inference and logic .. People who do wrong and those who do right can't be equal.. A criminal (, who steals , kills, raps )can run from the crime he committed in front of the law but what about the Creator who created him .. and who will judge him for his acts.
Nothing and no one is equal when it comes to one's acts and attitude.

Only animal are those who won't be judged for their actions..
A time will come when man says " Oh God brinf me back to do good "

No way we have been in this earth aimlessly or no way we have been created aimlessly .
We work for something......

Am sorry if i can't make my point more clear and easier than this !
I can say that its more like having a FAITH in things that you can't see but you know it's there..

[Paulclem]

In heaven as described in divine book , there is what a mind can't imagine.. what an eye has never seen and what has never been heard about.
We can't visualize many things with our small limited brain.. which from any small tumor can die !


The atheistic view is outside the domain of this discussion.

Its inference and logic .. People who do wrong and those who do right can't be equal.. A criminal (, who steals , kills, raps )can run from the crime he committed in front of the law but what about the Creator who created him .. and who will judge him for his acts.
Nothing and no one is equal when it comes to one's acts and attitude.

Only animal are those who won't be judged for their actions..
A time will come when man says " Oh God brinf me back to do good "

No way we have been in this earth aimlessly or no way we have been created aimlessly .
We work for something......

Am sorry if i can't make my point more clear and easier than this !
I can say that its more like having a FAITH in things that you can't see but you know it's there..

What about a Buddhist who rejects the idea of God, but accepts the Buddhist worldview which includes heaven and hell?

And if you reject the Atheist view as irrelevant, then we might as well just say Heaven yes, hell yes - right lets go home. No discussion.

As for atheist, agnostic and theist - I think in this case we must all be agnostic as we might have belief or non-belief, but we don't have direct knowledge - either through the decision of God in the case of god, or having no experience or scientific proof of it.

[caddy_caddy]

when we will go there we will find out if it is real or not .

[Paulclem]

when we will go there we will find out if it is real or not .

We're talking about it because it's either

or

Who wants to wait and see, or are you entirely sure...

[JuniperWoolf]

The "I don't know or care" kind of agnosticism doesn't really count, and I like terms like apatheism* or coproagnostic** to describe those people, as agnosticism is a statement about knowledge of god rather than just an "I don't know".

**Doesn't know, doesn't give a ****!

I've been looking for a word for a while now, because people ALWAYS eventually ask me "so if you hate Christianity so much, what religion are you?"

I used to respond: "I really, really just don't care. It's all pure bull ****, all of these little theories are insane because they are all so obviously based on nothing at all."

Either that or I called myself "devoutly apathetic" which I thought was kinda clever. Kept the pushy ones off my back, too.

Now I have a word: Coproagnostic! I like it!

[hoope]

And if you reject the Atheist view as irrelevant, then we might as well just say Heaven yes, hell yes - right lets go home. No discussion.

.

It's not what i meant - I mean that the Atheist don't believe in anything , so why they even bother about the existene of God nor heaven nor hell.

What about a Buddhist who rejects the idea of God, but accepts the Buddhist worldview which includes heaven and hell?

But they don't believe that it's the eternal life..

[Paulclem]

It's not what i meant - I mean that the Atheist don't believe in anything , so why they even bother about the existene of God nor heaven nor hell.



But they don't believe that it's the eternal life..

Yes, they don't believe that heaven and hell are eternal - but the point of buddhism is to escape from the cycle of birth ageing sickness and death of which heavens and hells are a part. Enlightenment is the eternal bit.

[hoope]

To start with Buddhism is not a divine religion , wasn't revealed by any prophet nor has a divine book.
Buddhism sees life as a full of pain and teaches us how to be free fom that pain and darkness.
However , the other religions or at least what i mean is divine religions - look at life as living as both in its goodness & bad , the pain and the healings , hateness and love , problems and solvings - all is there and its the mixture of what we experience.
And we humans are required to work and live it , do the right and find the path - not to get rid of it - we have to work in earth - for our life here after.
There have to be something called Moderations - having a life and a religions - spiritually as well as not getting detached from the world.

If you want to disuss about buddhism trust me u will find many things to discuss and there are answers that would only need a common sense to think about . Buddhism is not an answer for people who want to sek enlightment and peace.
With all my respect there many issues i Buddhism that requires questioning :

- the deny of existence of God .

Every divine religion , and every human being with a mind to think - always questions what s death ? who created us ? what is death ? where are we going after death ? Questions take us to one true think!!!
Are we created for a reason or what ? What is the purpose of living ?
All evidence of what were proved by The reasoning , The instinct , the Meditation on the world around us , the sun , the sky the moon etc and theGuidence

- Buddhism believe in shifting or something like the sou goes somewhere else , or to someone else after death.....Rebirthing i guess

Marriage and delivery is not a choice in Buddhism , so how can any one be born again ,, there has to be al ong process in that - two gametes to be and forming a zygote and life to start....
That only makes us think how silly and small we are in believing such thing-No human will be walking on earth if that is true..
Buddhism believes in soul shifthing fromone body to another.. and thus denies the fact of being there a body !!

A list to come..... i didn't want to go through all that but you made me .

[Lynne Fees]

See Psalm 16:11
You have made known to me the path of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence, with eternal pleasures at your right hand.

Not sure how a person enjoys eternal pleasures at God's right hand without being in heaven. David live 1000 years before Christ, so your article is wrong. "Scholars" who begin with the idea that heaven is illusionary don't look too hard to see anything different. It took me about 30 seconds online to find this Psalm.

I've just read an interesting article in the UK's Independant newspaper on the idea of Heaven.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...e-1949399.html

It says that the Christian/ Jewish/ Muslim version of heaven is an invented idea - around 165BC, which it claims arose due to the insecurity of burial rituals during the Greek occupation of Jewish lands.


It quotes some stats:

83% of US citizens and 51% of UK citizens believe in heaven.

Of these 71% believe it's an actual place

41% of these think their cats and dogs etc will follow them there.

It doesn't say that belief in Heaven implies a belief in Hell. What do you think - does it?

Is the idea of Heaven wish fulfillment, and what about near death experiences?

Are ideas of heaven, and by implication hell, too woolly?

[Virgil]

See Psalm 16:11
You have made known to me the path of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence, with eternal pleasures at your right hand.

Not sure how a person enjoys eternal pleasures at God's right hand without being in heaven. David live 1000 years before Christ, so your article is wrong. "Scholars" who begin with the idea that heaven is illusionary don't look too hard to see anything different. It took me about 30 seconds online to find this Psalm.

Yes, I agree. I was going to jump in with something along those lines but I really didn't care that much. You're right, while there is no specific mention of heaven in the Old Testament, it is very much implied in several places.

Just a cursory flip through pulled up this:

He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end.

Eccl 3:11

And in Isaiah 25

On this mountain the LORD of hosts will provide for all peoples A feast of rich food and choice wines, juicy, rich food and pure, choice wines.
7
On this mountain he will destroy the veil that veils all peoples, The web that is woven over all nations;
8
he will destroy death forever. The Lord GOD will wipe away the tears from all faces; The reproach of his people he will remove from the whole earth; for the LORD has spoken.
9
On that day it will be said: "Behold our God, to whom we looked to save us! This is the LORD for whom we looked; let us rejoice and be glad that he has saved us!"

And as you point out, it's all over the Psalms. The Bible was not the sole means of God's word in Judaism. There was the Torah, orally communicated practice and understanding, and written commentary, such as the Talmud. The notion that the Bible is the sole means of religions knowledge is a relatively recent one and it's a Protestant notion, called sola scriptura. Neither the Catholic Church nor the Orthodox Eastern Churches nor the Coptic Church, which make up probably 80% (if not more) of Christianity supports sola scriptura, and neither now nor in the past did Judaism.

[BienvenuJDC]

Abraham must have heard something that would make him believe.

Hebrews 11:13-16,
All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. (14) People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. (15) If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. (16) Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

[NikolaiI]

There are two infinites; Infinite illusion and infinite reality. Neither one can be expressed or encapsulated in words. The infinite reality is the source of reason and all virtues; is it illogical to think that logic has a source, a more-perfect form than what we as humans conceive and perceive? Heavens, no!! And many, many brilliant philosophers East and West have perceived this and written volumes of philosophy, many of which were enlightening to everyone. It's such a shame that people spit on the names of brilliant minds who were believers in a spiritual dimension to existence. It is a shame that they try by any means, the means of persuasion by trying to seem clever and intelligent, and "Above" all those who are "superstitious.." it is really so absurd.

Heaven means spiritual realm, spiritual reality or spiritual dimension. Paradise is where God is, Paradise is the dimension of existence closest to God. It is strange that people think that God does not exist --- when you consider that God is the absolute, the reality, and the source. This may not be the extent of the Source, but we can tell that everything has a source! And to say it is illogical to think that everything has a source! Ah, oh well. Continuing on...!

God is the Source which is infinite. Paradise is again, the closest point to God.

How to understand this... that Heaven is the closest point to God. This means that Paradise, if it is the dimension which the denizens are closest in perception and communion with God, is more real than this physical universe. -Not so that this universe should be neglected, however. Rather it should be transformed into the next step along evolution. Who knows where we will get to in our understanding of each other and the universe, and how far we may go in our enlightenment, to understand love and to share this deepest soul's love. How far will we grow in our beauty and likeness of the divine? Only God knows. The goal of religion is to submit to the will of God, who is the Source of Love and the Source of Being.

We can even understand scientifically that everything in the universe is light! All things are energy and matter; both are light. All life on Earth has come from the same source - Sol - who is light. Now how can we be of a different essence than our source??? Consciousness is light - and consciousness is a mirror - a reflection of the universe, so that subject and object are part of each other, they are one - so that all life is one. Yes this mystical truth found in Islam, Christianity, Paganism, Buddhism (NON-duality), and among other religions like that of the ancient Native Americans.

Paradise is a relative thing - where anyone understands God and lives in LOVE, then this is Paradise.

[Paulclem]

To start with Buddhism is not a divine religion , wasn't revealed by any prophet nor has a divine book.
Buddhism sees life as a full of pain and teaches us how to be free fom that pain and darkness.
However , the other religions or at least what i mean is divine religions - look at life as living as both in its goodness & bad , the pain and the healings , hateness and love , problems and solvings - all is there and its the mixture of what we experience.
And we humans are required to work and live it , do the right and find the path - not to get rid of it - we have to work in earth - for our life here after.
There have to be something called Moderations - having a life and a religions - spiritually as well as not getting detached from the world.

If you want to disuss about buddhism trust me u will find many things to discuss and there are answers that would only need a common sense to think about . Buddhism is not an answer for people who want to sek enlightment and peace.
With all my respect there many issues i Buddhism that requires questioning :

- the deny of existence of God .

Every divine religion , and every human being with a mind to think - always questions what s death ? who created us ? what is death ? where are we going after death ? Questions take us to one true think!!!
Are we created for a reason or what ? What is the purpose of living ?
All evidence of what were proved by The reasoning , The instinct , the Meditation on the world around us , the sun , the sky the moon etc and theGuidence

- Buddhism believe in shifting or something like the sou goes somewhere else , or to someone else after death.....Rebirthing i guess

Marriage and delivery is not a choice in Buddhism , so how can any one be born again ,, there has to be al ong process in that - two gametes to be and forming a zygote and life to start....
That only makes us think how silly and small we are in believing such thing-No human will be walking on earth if that is true..
Buddhism believes in soul shifthing fromone body to another.. and thus denies the fact of being there a body !!

A list to come..... i didn't want to go through all that but you made me .

Yes, Buddism is not a Divine religion because it denies that there is a God. There are clearly areas of Buddhism that you misapprehend, but the thread is not about that so I won't respond here, suffice to say that all the aspects you mentioned can be explained.