Classical Listening

**stlukesguild** · 03-24-2010, 10:38 PM

Haydn is very different from Beethoven and so comparisons there are difficult. Of course anytime we make such comparisons we must remember that if we use the values of one era or style as the standard measure it will certainly result in a skewed comparison. For example, if we compare Rembrandt to Matisse the comparison will surely not be fair if the standards we use are those of Rembrandt's era (anatomical accuracy in drawing, realism, the illusion of three-dimensional form). By the same token, Rembrandt might look rather "dull" by the standards of Modernism: his use of color is tame, he's not incredibly inventive in form, etc...

Haydn was one of the two central figures of the Classical era along with Mozart. Mozart was undoubtedly the greater composer and his early death was one of the greatest losses of Western music. Having said this much, Haydn still stands as one of the towering figures of classical music... not far beneath the "Three Immortals": Bach, Beethoven, and Mozart. Classicism in music was sandwiched between the Baroque and the Romantic eras... both of which were far more about virtuosity. Classicism distilled, codified, or "simplified" musical forms so that the listener could virtually grasp the whole of a work in his or her mind. Perhaps one might think of how we can grasp a sonnet in the same manner... how it sets up certain expectations and limitations... but how these may result in the most masterfully original results in the hands of the best poets.

Admittedly, this era is one of the most challenging for many listeners... especially those familiar with the more blatantly outgoing music of the Romantic and Post-Romantic era which in many ways still dominates the airwaves of classical radio and stands as the established vocabulary of most film music. Where the Baroque has Bach, Vivaldi, Handel, Biber, Telemann, and several other composers well-known to aficionados of the era, and Romanticism has an endless array of "greats" (Schumann, Schubert, Chopin, Wagner, Brahms, Bruckner, late Beethoven, Richard Strauss, Mahler, etc...) the Classical era is often imagined as divided solely between Mozart and Haydn. In a way, the classical era strikes me as not unlike the classicism of 18th century poets who are often quite ignored and underrated in comparison with the later Romantics... but these composers... including Haydn... certainly grow upon the listener who is willing to put forth the effort.

Haydn can also be initially difficult to appreciate as a result of the immense scale of his oeuvre which makes it challenging to know where to begin. Beethoven wrote but 9 symphonies; Mozart wrote 41... but generally it is only no.s 25, 29, and the final 6 or so that are considered among his mature and greatest works. Haydn wrote 104 symphonies!! His final collection of symphonies, known as the "London Symphonies", which include many of his finest works, in comprised of 12 symphonies which push beyond some of the ideas of Mozart. Beyond these there are the 6 "Paris Symphonies", and any number of works from his middle years which are included among those known as his "Sturm und Drang" Symphonies. Add to this his endless string quartets, piano sonatas, choral works, operas... and one may well be overwhelmed... especially when the works remain firmly footed within the given classical structures so that it takes several hearings to begin to discern the differences or the original elements that are so obvious in the works of the Romantic composers such as Beethoven.

The symphonies are full of magnificent moments... and as a whole reward repeated listening. Listen to the muscular start of symphony no. 98 which stands as a precursor to the brooding works of Beethoven. I like this particular rendering... which captures the muscularity of the opening of this work... and because of the discussion by the conductor who admits to his own youthful doubts about Haydn in a brief pre-concert talk:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUlEBoqHYK8

Of course there's the magnificent 104th:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90t9w7aLZL0

The closing to this symphony reminds me of one of Beethoven's more joyous passages... such as the peasant dance from his 6th (Pastoral) Symphony:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVHVRLQ79K0

And of course there's this playful symphonic exploration of a simple theme and variation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJDWh9F3Vig

Of course this but scratches the surface of Haydn's symphonic output... and his symphonies may not be his greatest achievement. Haydn was quite literally the inventor of the string quartet... and an unsurpassed master of the form. What Haydn achieved in the quartet was something of a democratic art form. Rather than the concerto in which a single virtuoso instruments dominates the dialog, as it were, with the string quartet Haydn virtually created a musical equivalent of a dialog... in which four instruments/speakers take turns talking, arguing, laughing, etc...:

Here is the famous adagio cantabile from the Emperor Quartet:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rc34Jr9udlU

And a few other marvelous selections:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS_TF...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hymdXgFND4I

Of course, being a fanatic of vocal and choral music, I might just suggest that Haydn's choral works are his most towering achievements. Haydn quite well surpasses both Mozart and Beethoven as a choral composer. Among his great choral achievements: St. Cecilia Mass:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmixN...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uqw37PwVYA

The Lord Nelson Mass:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2E9Iu...eature=related

and Haydn's nearly undisputed masterpiece, The Creation... an oratorio that clearly builds upon Handel... and vies with Handel's Messiah as one of the greatest oratorios ever composed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5RHDwdaanQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vafm_PdWsrI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Yg6PMCkmJc

**mortalterror** · 03-25-2010, 12:23 AM

Originally Posted by Drkshadow03

Haydn? Any fans? I've been using that Classical Music Book St. Luke recommended awhile ago, so I've been going in order of the Top 50 list. I've been listening to Haydn's music and I find him him kind of blah, especially compared to Mozart, Beethoven, and Bach. Anyone else feel this way? Anyone want to tell me I'm insane and why?

**L.M. The Third** · 03-25-2010, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by Drkshadow03

Haydn? Any fans? I've been using that Classical Music Book St. Luke recommended awhile ago, so I've been going in order of the Top 50 list. I've been listening to Haydn's music and I find him him kind of blah, especially compared to Mozart, Beethoven, and Bach. Anyone else feel this way? Anyone want to tell me I'm insane and why?

I'm a very ignorant person to be bursting in here, but I had to comment on this. I was recently listening to "The Creation", and although there are undoubtedly some superb parts, the Adam and Eve duets left me with this impression:

"Philip burst into one of his invectives against 'The Creation' the
other day," said Lucy, seating herself at the piano. "He says it has a
sort of sugared complacency and flattering make-believe in it, as if
it were written for the birthday _fÃªte_ of a German Grand-Duke."

[I]The Mill on the Floss[I]

Oh, well, it was probably simply the way of the times, and I do intend to listen to more Haydn. Once I've listened to the 5 new Beethoven CDs I just got, and some more sacred arias.

**LitNetIsGreat** · 03-25-2010, 05:54 PM

I just can't get enough of opera at the moment, in particular Verdi and La Traviata. I can recommend the Domingo/Zeffirelli enough, it just seems perfect in every way, I've watched it about four times...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Verdi-Travia...9553017&sr=1-4

As someone quite new to the form La Traviata has resonated with me more than any others at present I think. More Verdi needed ASAP...

I mean the little overture is just so beautiful alone, it's delightful:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEzEa_LUy84

**Drkshadow03** · 03-25-2010, 11:30 PM

@ St. Luke

I've listened to many of those pieces: Symphony 98, 104, parts of the Creation, etc. Basically anything Phil Goulding recommended in his book, and then some. I usually listen to a few pieces beyond what he recommends. Don't get me wrong, I think some of Haydn is okay, but I keep listening and I never find myself moved by his work the way I am by some of the other composers I've listened to so far. It just sounds so bland at times.

I think I'm trying to figure out if I should move forward to Brahms or continue listening to Haydn and hope I can learn to appreciate him or if something will click. I'll probably keep at Haydn for a bit since I'm moving in two days and don't really have time to put together a Brahms collection anyway. Plus I want to give Haydn a fair chance. Some of the pieces are growing on me, but I find it doesn't have that instant Wow factor that pieces by Beethoven, Handel, Bach, Mozart, and Tchaichovsky all have had for me.

**stlukesguild** · 03-26-2010, 01:35 AM

No one will love every composer... no matter how good. With the exception of the Symphonie Fantastique, Berlioz has never really clicked with me. I sometimes find Brahms to be a bit of an old fuddy-duddy in comparison with Wagner or even Bruckner (although his chamber works are unsurpassed), and I have a love-hate relationship with Tchaikovsky... and often the whole of Russian music. The reason I read or listen to music is for the aesthetic pleasure. Stick with what gives you the most pleasure... but certainly be open to exploring the unfamiliar and to re-examining that which you think you know well. As we grow and change as a result of our experiences, so too do our responses to art. There are any number of artists, writers, composers who once left me indifferent... who I even once hated (Emily Dickinson, Emerson, Matisse, Gauguin

) whom I now love.

**Gladys** · 03-26-2010, 01:46 AM

Originally Posted by Drkshadow03

I think I'm trying to figure out if I should move forward to Brahms or continue listening to Haydn...

Haydn's The Surprise (94) and The Drum Roll (103), along with other London symphonies, introduced my love of classical music late in high school. But pre-eminent in following years was Brahms's majestic Piano Concerto No 2 (Op. 83). I have since heard the odd exquisite trio by Haydn though, I agree, much of his output seems somewhat clinical.

**Drkshadow03** · 03-26-2010, 08:49 AM

Originally Posted by stlukesguild

No one will love every composer... no matter how good. With the exception of the Symphonie Fantastique, Berlioz has never really clicked with me. I sometimes find Brahms to be a bit of an old fuddy-duddy in comparison with Wagner or even Bruckner (although his chamber works are unsurpassed), and I have a love-hate relationship with Tchaikovsky... and often the whole of Russian music. The reason I read or listen to music is for the aesthetic pleasure. Stick with what gives you the most pleasure... but certainly be open to exploring the unfamiliar and to re-examining that which you think you know well. As we grow and change as a result of our experiences, so too do our responses to art. There are any number of artists, writers, composers who once left me indifferent... who I even once hated (Emily Dickinson, Emerson, Matisse, Gauguin

) whom I now love.

How could you ever not like this:

I completely agree about age changing our responses to art. There are plenty of works I disliked in high school that grew on me when I reached college age and Post-College age. The particular example that comes to mind is Edith Wharton.

**mortalterror** · 03-26-2010, 10:28 AM

Not including a Gauguin in my list of visual masterpieces was a terrible oversight. The man is a master of color and composition. I like the picture you included, though I'm more partial to The Vision After the Sermon, or In the Waves.

In more music related news, the death of Seneca in Monteverdi's Corronation of Poppea is badass. I love that guy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qb9nCKAQVyA I'm digging that scene even more than Orpheus' grieving over Euridice http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ll_u870PG8 or The Lament of the Nymph http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qz2aj2oB68

**Drkshadow03** · 03-26-2010, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by mortalterror

Not including a Gauguin in my list of visual masterpieces was a terrible oversight. The man is a master of color and composition. I like the picture you included, though I'm more partial to The Vision After the Sermon, or In the Waves.

Well, I was recently in Boston and saw that painting in the Museum of Fine Arts, so I selected that one.

**LitNetIsGreat** · 03-31-2010, 03:54 AM

Well it was Figaro last night and my head is still full of this wonderful unreal world. Real life is just so dull compared to the opera! I'm feeling a serious addiction coming on. The language thing was hardly an issue, yes I would still prefer Italian with English stage titles, but overall the thing was totally spell-binding - I couldn't sleep last night and I can't function now. The whole thing is completely under my skin, wonderful!!! What a fool I’ve been for ignoring this form for so long. I wish it was on again tonight for I would go again and again, incredible!!!

**stlukesguild** · 03-31-2010, 08:21 PM

Neely...

Opera can surely do that to you. Just think... an art form that merges narrative, theater, song, music, a sheer visual spectacle. And Le Nozze di Figaro is surely one of the finest ever. I envy you. I haven't been able to get to the orchestra or the opera from quite some time now... although the wife's birthday is coming up soon. Hmmmm???

**LitNetIsGreat** · 04-01-2010, 03:59 AM

Yes, yes exactly it's just a combination of all these forms married together and in the case of Mozart perfectly so, sublime! Music and drama perfectly combined bringing out the very best of both! I went to a full concert a few days before but this was completely over-shadowed by the opera performance. It's the ETO - English Touring Opera and I've looked to follow them around for at least another performance but the logistics (trains) are just not workable. I read that when Figaro was first performed it was a sensation and everybody was addicted to it - I can see why.

Yes you'll have to 'treat the wife' to a performance, let her pick or better still use your own judgement on what she'll like

and book them for her! It's my birthday soon, I also feel a little trip coming on too...

Really though the amount of opera on offer around the country seems to me to be really thin on the ground, disappointing.

**stlukesguild** · 04-01-2010, 09:37 PM

London, man! London! I'm quite serious... if I lived as close to London (or New York or Washington D.C. for that matter) I'd be there every other week. I doubt that you can possibly live in a greater cultural wasteland than Cleveland... although the orchestra and art museum are world class.

My own taste recently has swung toward Modern and contemporary composers... and the Baroque. I'm currently listening to John Tavener...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOCXM...eature=related

while Peteris Vasks is waiting in the wings:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZsenEas8jw

I have been listening to a good deal of "early music" recently... especially Baroque works... including Pachelbel, Buxtehude, Vivaldi, Handel, and of course Bach. What I have come to recognize is how limited my range of composers is for the music of this period... in spite of the fact that I am so enamored of it. If I were to look at the works I have by late 19th century composers, for example, the sheer range is astounding: Wagner, Brahms, Richard Strauss, Mahler, Bruckner, Bruch, Debussy, Ravel, Mussorgsky, Tchaikovsky, Rimsky-Korsakov, Faure, Dvorak, Puccini, Duparc, Delius, Elgar, Vaughan-Williams... and this barely scratches the surface. But my Baroque collection on the other hand...? It is actually embarrassingly slim... with the exception of Bach. I have a good amount of music by Handel... but nothing like what I should have when I consider his wealth of operatic and choral compositions. With the rediscovery of a cache of music by Vivaldi I certainly need to explore his choral and operatic oeuvre far more. And then there's Telemann:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOfDfqgr18A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQatl...eature=related

(who was THE biggest composer of the era)...

Buxtehude:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FJIw...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0s-j7YyQuiM

(whose organ and choral music inspired Bach and Handel... and whose oeuvre has recently been tackled by the great Ton Koopman... who also recorded the whole of Bach's cantatas).

And what of Biber?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6vTF85l_AU

Schütz?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBXMlZrmiB0

Frescobaldi?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdup8lxR8m0

Allegri?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8C4xmB1QWYk

Scarlatti?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lmqDOjHx70

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-oVk...eature=related

(a magnificent composer of works for keyboard)

Praetorius?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sj2kz8nSSfE

And the French: Rameau?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKvd4tMkFHc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpwYj...eature=related

Lully?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6ggB...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6ggB...eature=related

Charpentier?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uT9nC...eature=related

And Purcell?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB3lS...eature=related

Of course here is a slightly more modern version of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVVnB...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAnQQ4_Jpd8

It's like reading: so much music... so little time... and money.

**LitNetIsGreat** · 04-02-2010, 10:26 AM

Absolutely, so little time and so much hidden away.

Yes, yes London I have been looking into that place - £60/70 return ticket for the train and a two hour journey. I’m currently looking into what’s on and when. It is essential that I see more opera and soon...

Some of these shows are out of Mrs Neely's price range though.

I must see this:
http://www.roh.org.uk/video/index.ht...id=71372967001

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