Poetry Reading Group Redux- Nominations

[Paulclem]

I think you and I disagree about what that experience entails, though. As I was saying above, his experience seems to point to skepticism rather than worldly, post-lapsarian kind of knowledge. Quark

I wouldn't say that yet Quark. I'm still rolling ideas about, and i wouldn't count my knowledge of the Enlightenment or of Leopardi's life as up to much.

That seems a little far-fetched given what we know about Leopardi. What you're saying makes the poem sound like a pretty typical discussion of fallen man. It's the kind of thing you would expect someone very sure of their faith to write: that man is fallen, but he will eventually be redeemed. That's pretty optimistic. But Leopardi wasn't exactly a super-Christian--if such a title exists. Virgil asked whether he was an atheist when we discussing the last poem, and I think that's a fair question. He certainly has doubts, and he doesn't care for the usual doctrine. Read his poem about the monument to Dante or "The Flower in the Desert" and this really comes out.

I think it is referred to, but I'm unsure of the reason as to why it's there. You seem pretty clear on your interpretation - but I'm not there yet. I don't dispute his loss of faith - his focus seems to be on worldly suffering rather than salvation I agree.

Still musing

[Virgil]

Then what do you make of these lines:



I think you're right that there is some pleasure associated with Sunday. But, when a poem says that something will be empty and melancholy, I think you also have to acknowledge that there's more than just pleasure there, too.

Quark, I'm pretty sure he's referring to Monday with those lines. I had orignally read it as Sunday, but it became clearer on further reads. Judging by your subsequent posts, I think you now agree.

I have to agree with Virgil - I don't doubt the traditions you are referring to Quark, but I think the link with the poem is too thin. I'd like a theory that sits closer to the text, as clearly the biblical links do.

Yes. The kind of analysis Quark made is valid toward an entire opus of a author's works. Unless the poet is specifically making a point about the Enlightenment and Romanticism or whatever, you need to have solid connections, not just suggestive possibilities.

[Virgil]

I was wondering when we would get around to the subject of Leopardi's religious beliefs. My understanding is that he hails from a conservative papal state and converts to atheism sometime in his early twenties. I didn't bring it up in the last poem, because I wasn't sure about the exact date he lost his faith and at the time of Infinitive's creation he would only have been about twenty. But at the time, I was reminded of another Atheist poet Shelley and the ending of his poem Mont Blanc:

What do you want to say about it? When it comes up in a poem someone will bring it up I'm sure. I thought it was suggested in "Infinitive" in the Grennan translation, but the Nichols translation really pointed toward a divinity, and when I read the actual Italian, I believe the Nichols translation is correct. In this poem, "Saturday In The Village," I don't see any suggestion of atheism. Quite the contrary.

[stlukesguild]

And while we are discussing poetic sympathies, this poem reminds me of the beginning of Thomas Gray's Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard (1751) with it's

The curfew tolls the knell of parting day...
The plowman homeward plods his weary way

Yes... but not surprising, Mortal. As Casale states elsewhere in The Leopardi Reader the "graveyard poets" were favorites and major influences.

[Quark]

I was wondering when we would get around to the subject of Leopardi's religious beliefs.

It is an interesting subject. When someone with the atheistic views that Leopardi seemed to have at the time writes a poem with so many religious overtones like those in "Saturday in the Village," it creates quite a tension. I'm sure lots could be said about it, but it's getting a little late tonight. Tomorrow, I'll come back to this.

And while we are discussing poetic sympathies, this poem reminds me of the beginning of Thomas Gray's Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard (1751)

I certainly see some parallels. What do you make of the attitude of the two poems toward the waning day, though? Gray's poem appears a little less cheerful. Leopardi writes about the farmer and the boys eagerly anticipating the coming day. I think the Leopardi's speaker has some reservations about all this, but the people in the poem are nothing if not hopeful. You might want to spell your comparison out more. I think I see what you're saying, but I'm not entirely sure.

You seem pretty clear on your interpretation - but I'm not there yet.

I'm not really there, either--just throwing ideas out there. I just read the poem a few days ago, and I hadn't read any Leopardi up until a week or two ago. This is still pretty new to me.

The kind of analysis Quark made is valid toward an entire opus of a author's works. Unless the poet is specifically making a point about the Enlightenment and Romanticism or whatever, you need to have solid connections, not just suggestive possibilities.

Well, clearly I thought what I was saying was "valid." I wouldn't have bothered posting if it wasn't. All I'm arguing is that the first half of the poem builds up our expectation for a happy country Sunday, but, in the second half of the poem, there's no payoff. Instead, there's equivocation from Leopardi. The first half of the poem ends with the farmhand "Thinking about his day of rest," and we're in this mood of warm anticipation. Yet, once we get into the second half of the poem we find carpenter banging away when "every other light is out." The poet talks about the expectation of a joyous feast day, but he or she skips over it when they consider the future. We hear about a "warmest welcome," but soon it's Monday. What happened to the Sunday we were hearing about? And, in the last lines, Leopardi's speaker tells us that our Sunday may be a long time coming. Why? What's going on here? That's the question I'm driving at. I brought up the Enlightenment and Leopardi's secular views as a possible explanation of that question.

Now, if you don't agree with what I wrote, that's fine. But you've posted a few glib, two-sentence responses to my posts, and I really can't do anything with those. When you say something like "The kind of analysis Quark made is valid toward an entire opus of a author's works," what am I supposed to say back to that? "No, I think it is valid." I guess this is your opinion, but I don't know why it's your opinion. What is "the kind of analysis Quark made?" What does that mean? Why would it be valid for "entire opus of a author's works," but not an individual work? You don't give reasons for why you disagree. You simply want to register that what I'm saying is completely off-base--which seems unnecessarily hostile. I'm just describing what I think is an interesting angle to the poem. If you've got a better idea about what's going on in this poem, put it forward. I'm more than willing to talk about other ways of talking about the poem. It's quite possible that's there's a far better answer to the question I posed above about the absent Sunday. Or, maybe the Sunday is purely cheerful after all. I don't know, but you have to give us something to work with.

What do you want to say about it? When it comes up in a poem someone will bring it up I'm sure.

It actually was brought up. Paulclem's and my own posts directly above mortal's brought that issue into play. In fact, I asked about his atheism pretty outright. mortal may have been trying give more details about an idea that was floated out there. Of course, I can never tell with mortal. I'm never clear when he's joking.

[Virgil]

Now, if you don't agree with what I wrote, that's fine. But you've posted a few glib, two-sentence responses to my posts, and I really can't do anything with those. When you say something like "The kind of analysis Quark made is valid toward an entire opus of a author's works," what am I supposed to say back to that?

Well, I'm sorry Quark, if you feel offended. But there's no way anyone can validate whole eras of intellectual movements from a dozen lines from a single poem, and multiple eras within a single work? Look that's over intellectualizing. Artists don't sit and think I'll fit into this era or that. Art just doesn't work that way.

[Quark]

I'm sorry Quark, if you feel offended.

That's funny. No, LitNet is a little too casual to get offended over. Really, there's only three things that offend me: criticizing my favorite sports teams, the low salaries of teachers, and pointless emoticons (oh, how I loathe that last one). I was just surprised you were giving me such a hard time on this thread. Usually, you're pretty laid-back, but now you're telling me all about things that "there's no way anyone can" do. It's taking me a moment to adjust.

But there's no way anyone can validate whole eras of intellectual movements from a dozen lines from a single poem, and multiple eras within a single work?

Well, you and I could have some academic discussion about the extent that art interacts with intellectual movements, but that seems beside the point. As I've said in a number of posts, I'm not arguing that the poem is making direct reference to the Enlightenment. What I'm saying is that there's some uncertainty about the coming Sunday in Leopardi's "Saturday in the Village," and that the uncertainty has something to do with secularization. The poem raises the idea of a pleasant, enjoyable Sunday in the first half, but in the second half we find some disconcerting details. The carpenter has to "strain" and "sweat" when one would expect the day to be over. The poem looks forward to the Sunday, but when the poet considers the future Sunday is skipped over rather quickly and we move into Monday. What happened to Sunday? And, in the last lines, Leopardi tells us that our Sunday may be delayed. Why? This points to some uncertainty about Sunday. I suggested that the uncertainty may reflect secularization. The carpenter has to work overtime because life doesn't conform to the Bible's idea of a six-day work week. Sunday might be skipped over because ultimately it's empty. Our Sunday may be a long time coming because the promises made by religion may not be fulfilled. That was the interpretation I was offering. I brought up the Enlightenment as evidence for what I saying. I pointed out that the Enlightenment encouraged secularization, and that Leopardi held some rather atheistic positions. It would make sense that given what we know about the historical and biographical context of the poem that he could be talking about unbelief entering into our worldview. That's all I'm saying.

[Virgil]

That's funny. No, LitNet is a little too casual to get offended over. Really, there's only three things that offend me: criticizing my favorite sports teams, the low salaries of teachers, and pointless emoticons (oh, how I loathe that last one).

Well, if I had known that, I would have revealed that I think the Chicago Cubs stink, teachers are over paid, and .

I was just surprised you were giving me such a hard time on this thread. Usually, you're pretty laid-back, but now you're telling me all about things that "there's no way anyone can" do. It's taking me a moment to adjust.

I wasn't intentionally giving you a hard time. I was just disagreeing with something you said.

Well, you and I could have some academic discussion about the extent that art interacts with intellectual movements, but that seems beside the point. As I've said in a number of posts, I'm not arguing that the poem is making direct reference to the Enlightenment. What I'm saying is that there's some uncertainty about the coming Sunday in Leopardi's "Saturday in the Village," and that the uncertainty has something to do with secularization.

Ah, now that's a legitamate point. Forget any reference to an intellectual movement, let's focus on what the poem says. But still I have to disagree. The second to last stanza is fairly clear that Sunday is the best day of the week:

This one [Saturday] get this warmest welcome,
Full of hope, as it is, and joy.
Tomorrow the hours will be leaden
With emptiness and melancholy,
Everybody going back in his mind
To the daily grind. (39-44)

I don't see anything in the poem that would suggest secularism. If Sunday is not heavenly bliss, that's just the toil of life.

The poem raises the idea of a pleasant, enjoyable Sunday in the first half, but in the second half we find some disconcerting details. The carpenter has to "strain" and "sweat" when one would expect the day to be over. The poem looks forward to the Sunday, but when the poet considers the future Sunday is skipped over rather quickly and we move into Monday. What happened to Sunday? And, in the last lines, Leopardi tells us that our Sunday may be delayed. Why? This points to some uncertainty about Sunday. I suggested that the uncertainty may reflect secularization. The carpenter has to work overtime because life doesn't conform to the Bible's idea of a six-day work week. Sunday might be skipped over because ultimately it's empty. Our Sunday may be a long time coming because the promises made by religion may not be fulfilled. That was the interpretation I was offering. I brought up the Enlightenment as evidence for what I saying. I pointed out that the Enlightenment encouraged secularization, and that Leopardi held some rather atheistic positions. It would make sense that given what we know about the historical and biographical context of the poem that he could be talking about unbelief entering into our worldview. That's all I'm saying.

OK, I hear you.

My reading, thanks to Paul's insight of the poem's subtext of death and the carpenter (Christ) possibly building a coffin, is that Sunday is the rest that comes at the end of life, the cessation of toil. But the poem has a circular movement. One generation passeth and the next cometh, and the new week starts with the toil returning.

[Quark]

The second to last stanza is fairly clear that Sunday is the best day of the week:

Oh, there's no doubt that Sunday is the best day of the week. It's just that it never comes. Sunday is skipped over or delayed indefinitely. When we look at the other Sunday poem, "Sunday Evening," I think we'll see the same thing going on there, too. The feast day is just an idea--it's not something that's actually experienced.

If Sunday is not heavenly bliss, that's just the toil of life.

I think I see the point you're making, but I'm not sure. Are you saying that if there's any problem with Sunday it's due to that fact that man is fallen? Is that what you're going for?

[LitNetIsGreat]

Are we ready to move on to a new poem yet? Sunday Evening was suggested earlier I think. No rush if not.

[Quark]

The conversation is in a bit of a lull, so maybe changing things up would help. I gave my book with "Sunday Evening" in it back to the library, so I probably won't be able to post until Monday, though.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Well, we could pick another poem then if that would help or don't you have any of the poems now?

[Paulclem]

You can get one off the internet collections Quark. Why don't you pick and we'll go with whatever you can access.

[Virgil]

I'm ready for the next one. We promised Lynne "Sunday Evening." I'll read it tonight, which happens to be Sunday evening.

[Quark]

Well, we could pick another poem then if that would help or don't you have any of the poems now?

You can get one off the internet collections Quark. Why don't you pick and we'll go with whatever you can access.

Go ahead and do "Sunday Evening." I'll post tomorrow when I can get hold of the book. I checked out three initially, but then I turned two back in since it took it us almost two weeks to get through the first poem. Of course, if anyone has a link to the poem, send it my way, but I haven't been able to find anything by search engine or google books.