Poetry Reading Group Redux- Nominations

[B. Laumness]

If I had to choose to discover a French poet, I’d rather read Du Bellay, Ronsard, Hugo, Vigny or Heredia, whose poetry does not seem well known by the Enghish readers.

OK. To hell with Gautier, Neruda, Garcia-Lorca, and Leopardi. We'll just rush out and buy something by Ronsard, Du Bellay, Hugo, or Heredia at the behest of our first-time poster who finds Gautier to be trifling.

I did not say that you had to read my five poets rather than yours. Did I speak about Neruda or Leopardi? And when I spoke about Gautier I did not use the term “trifling”. In fact I have just translated Flaubert, whose opinion is not the most idiotic, and I have mentioned two opposite views of two great contemporaries writers on the same work. That does not mean Flaubert does not understand poetry; he praised les Fleurs du Mal. I was a little surprised to see here Gautier instead of Hugo for instance. For the one who speaks French, who studied at the university and taught at high school French literature, the author of Émaux et Camées is a second-class poet. I'm not alone to say it, this is not an extravagant opinion. I don't forget he is good novelist : I liked much his short stories la Morte amoureuse and Avatar, and I considered his novels le Capitaine Fracasse and Mademoiselle de Maupin as excellent novels. But I do not prevent you from reading his poetry, as well as Leopardi's one and the others. I like Leopardi even if I read translations. What impressed me and, dare I say it, changed my mind is his diary, the Zibaldone, full of erudite notes and profound thoughts, as big as a dictionary (2000 pages in my beautiful edition). But again these are just suggestions.

[Paulclem]

I did not say that you had to read my five poets rather than yours. Did I speak about Neruda or Leopardi? And when I spoke about Gautier I did not use the term “trifling”. In fact I have just translated Flaubert, whose opinion is not the most idiotic, and I have mentioned two opposite views of two great contemporaries writers on the same work. That does not mean Flaubert does not understand poetry; he praised les Fleurs du Mal. I was a little surprised to see here Gautier instead of Hugo for instance. For the one who speaks French, who studied at the university and taught at high school French literature, the author of Émaux et Camées is a second-class poet. I'm not alone to say it, this is not an extravagant opinion. I don't forget he is good novelist : I liked much his short stories la Morte amoureuse and Avatar, and I considered his novels le Capitaine Fracasse and Mademoiselle de Maupin as excellent novels. But I do not prevent you from reading his poetry, as well as Leopardi's one and the others. I like Leopardi even if I read translations. What impressed me and, dare I say it, changed my mind is his diary, the Zibaldone, full of erudite notes and profound thoughts, as big as a dictionary (2000 pages in my beautiful edition). But again these are just suggestions.

Hi B. Laumness. We started this thread to decide upon lesser known, but recognised poets that we would like to look at in depth. We came up with a top 5 and are now waiting for a couple of people to vote. If you want to join in with the readings and contribute to the discussions that are going to start, then you are welcome.

[Virgil]

Leopardi's lyrics are arranged in the Canti, which covers the developmental of his poetry.

Great, thanks. I will have to order it.

[mortalterror]

If I had to choose to discover a French poet, I’d rather read Du Bellay, Ronsard, Hugo, Vigny or Heredia, whose poetry does not seem well known by the Enghish readers.

Hello Laumness, I thought your post was fantastic, and your translations beautiful. I too would rather read Boileau's Latrine, Ronsard's sonnets, Valéry's La Jeune Parque, or much anything by Hugo than Gautier's poetry. Welcome to Litnet.

To the rest of the group: Where I may, I'd like to use the Eamon Grennan translation of Leopardi's poems. It's one of my favorites. But I shouldn't have trouble finding others if the need arises.

[LitNetIsGreat]

I think I might punt for the Grennen translation just slightly over the Nichols one, though both of these seem OK to me. I think there is just Vigil and Quasimodo to vote for their 5 if they want to, though it looks like Leopardi is likely to be top. I’m going to order the book anyway, it’ll be the only copy in the whole of Sheffield!

I've actually ended up ordering the Nichols one, the Grennen translation that I could find seemed to have far less poems in it.

[Virgil]

I did not realize I needed to vote again. I'm ok with Loepardi. I guess I won't.

[mayneverhave]

I think I might punt for the Grennen translation just slightly over the Nichols one, though both of these seem OK to me. I think there is just Vigil and Quasimodo to vote for their 5 if they want to, though it looks like Leopardi is likely to be top. I’m going to order the book anyway, it’ll be the only copy in the whole of Sheffield!

I've actually ended up ordering the Nichols one, the Grennen translation that I could find seemed to have far less poems in it.

When I originally ordered the Canti, I had a good bit of trouble finding a translation to order, let alone a preferred one. The Nichols one, the one JBI linked to, is a dual language edition which has a fair amount of notation, but, as I stated before - no table of contents and no index of first lines. The top of the page also does not feature the name of the poem, so one must literally look at every page to find what they're looking for.

[LitNetIsGreat]

When I originally ordered the Canti, I had a good bit of trouble finding a translation to order, let alone a preferred one. The Nichols one, the one JBI linked to, is a dual language edition which has a fair amount of notation, but, as I stated before - no table of contents and no index of first lines. The top of the page also does not feature the name of the poem, so one must literally look at every page to find what they're looking for.

Have you got a different edition to the one JBI posted though? I looked on the inside the book part on Amazon and it had a table of contents I'm sure, though it didn't let me see far enough to see any of the poems so I don't know about the poems not being listed at the top of the page. I hope it has because that's a little strange to say the least, though at this stage I'd just be happy to get my hands on a copy to be honest.

This is the edition I've ordered:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Canti-Onewor...7139192&sr=8-1

Is it the same edition as yours or is yours an earlier one?

[Paulclem]

Have you got a different edition to the one JBI posted though? I looked on the inside the book part on Amazon and it had a table of contents I'm sure, though it didn't let me see far enough to see any of the poems so I don't know about the poems not being listed at the top of the page. I hope it has because that's a little strange to say the least, though at this stage I'd just be happy to get my hands on a copy to be honest.

This is the edition I've ordered:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Canti-Onewor...7139192&sr=8-1

Is it the same edition as yours or is yours an earlier one?

It does have a table of contents.

[mayneverhave]

Have you got a different edition to the one JBI posted though? I looked on the inside the book part on Amazon and it had a table of contents I'm sure, though it didn't let me see far enough to see any of the poems so I don't know about the poems not being listed at the top of the page. I hope it has because that's a little strange to say the least, though at this stage I'd just be happy to get my hands on a copy to be honest.

This is the edition I've ordered:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Canti-Onewor...7139192&sr=8-1

Is it the same edition as yours or is yours an earlier one?

The edition you linked to pictures an orange cover with the silhouette of an armless statue - I have that. If you click on the cover, or search inside the book, it gives you a different book, with a different cover - this one of an impressionist-looking painting of a boy playing a pipe, lying in the grass with a girl. This one has the table of contents. Honestly, I'm a little annoyed that I didn't get that version instead of the orange one I own. Maybe you'll have better luck.

The orange one simply has all the poems grouped as "Canti" in the table of contents without saying which poem is on what page. Not a major deal, but slightly irritating.

[stlukesguild]

I too would rather read Boileau's Latrine, Ronsard's sonnets, Valéry's La Jeune Parque, or much anything by Hugo than Gautier's poetry.

But of course you would. You are more of a tied-in-the-wool classicist than I have ever been. Not that I would be against reading Boileau, Ronsard, du Bellay, or Hugo. Unfortunately, over the years I never came upon a solid translated anthology of any of these (with the exception of the recent translations of Hugo by the Blackmores) in spite of looking long for the same. Browsing online, I do see that there are recent translations or recent editions of older translations of all. I will certainly need to be adding these to my library soon.

[LitNetIsGreat]

The edition you linked to pictures an orange cover with the silhouette of an armless statue - I have that. If you click on the cover, or search inside the book, it gives you a different book, with a different cover - this one of an impressionist-looking painting of a boy playing a pipe, lying in the grass with a girl. This one has the table of contents. Honestly, I'm a little annoyed that I didn't get that version instead of the orange one I own. Maybe you'll have better luck.

The orange one simply has all the poems grouped as "Canti" in the table of contents without saying which poem is on what page. Not a major deal, but slightly irritating.

Yes it definitely sounds irritating and badly thought out, I'll just have to see which edition turns up, though there's not much I can do about it either way.

[B. Laumness]

Boileau's Latrine

What’s that? You mean le Lutrin?

I'm afraid that Boileau’s poetry smells old today and that for us its interest is only historical, as an imitation of the ancients and a theory of classicism in the 17th century. In his Art poétique he imitates Horace and appears the heir of the aesthetic principles of Aristotle, understood in a rigid manner. He speaks about the different genres, particularly the theatre, explaining the famous three unities and also two precepts: the rule of ‘probability’ – I don’t know how to translate ‘vraisemblance’ – (that means that what is described or narrated must be probable, seem true without necessarily being true, and everything must follow a reasonable order and not be commanded by fantasy) and the rule of propriety – ‘bienséance’ – (no vulgarity, no violence, no blood). But we may ask the question: is the mechanical observance of all these precepts sufficient to make good poetry? Later the Romantics rejected a part of them and prefered the Shakespearean inspiration.

What is interesting is to see how a genius can create in the frame of a strict codification. Perhaps that helps him to canalize his imagination and form his ideas. I admire Racine for what he succeeded to do in such a frame. After having learned and copied Euripides and once he obeyed that classical rhetoric, he was not imprisoned, but found a liberty. So his verse has a marvellous flow and an ideal purety, almost impossible to translate I guess. With only 2000 words – though the french vocabulary is rich, but all the technical and prosaic terms were forbidden – it remains poetic and sensual. The action of his plays is concentrated, avoids the secondary intrigues and relies on the same economy of means. And as he can’t show fighting and death on the stage, everything depends on the language. His tragedies are tragedies of the language: how to express hate or love, how to tear, to conquer, to kill by words. Phèdre can’t tell her passion, but she has to; Hippolyte tries to tell the truth, but he’s not believed; Thésée calls for punishment and his speech is so powerful that it brings death, even if he eventually does not want such an end, but it was too late, the words were pronounced. For many reasons, Racine is worthy of our admiration, whereas Boileau becomes more and more obscure.

[mortalterror]

What is interesting is to see how a genius can create in the frame of a strict codification. Perhaps that helps him to canalize his imagination and form his ideas. I admire Racine for what he succeeded to do in such a frame. After having learned and copied Euripides and once he obeyed that classical rhetoric, he was not imprisoned, but found a liberty. So his verse has a marvellous flow and an ideal purety, almost impossible to translate I guess. With only 2000 words – though the french vocabulary is rich, but all the technical and prosaic terms were forbidden – it remains poetic and sensual. The action of his plays is concentrated, avoids the secondary intrigues and relies on the same economy of means. And as he can’t show fighting and death on the stage, everything depends on the language. His tragedies are tragedies of the language: how to express hate or love, how to tear, to conquer, to kill by words. Phèdre can’t tell her passion, but she has to; Hippolyte tries to tell the truth, but he’s not believed; Thésée calls for punishment and his speech is so powerful that it brings death, even if he eventually does not want such an end, but it was too late, the words were pronounced. For many reasons, Racine is worthy of our admiration, whereas Boileau becomes more and more obscure.

I've been trying to sell that pitch to people around here for two years now. They don't believe me when I tell them that Racine is almost the equal of Shakespeare. He's barely even translated over here, which is a travesty.

I hadn't realized that Boileau was already considered archaic in the French language. My interest stems from his impact upon another poet who is near and dear to my heart: John Wilmot the 2nd Earl of Rochester.

[Paulclem]

Yes it definitely sounds irritating and badly thought out, I'll just have to see which edition turns up, though there's not much I can do about it either way.

I've ordered that one too. We'll see.