For I have known them all already, known them all:
Have known the evenings, mornings, afternoons,
I have measured out my life with coffee spoons;
I know the voices dying with a dying fall
Beneath the music from a farther room.
So how should I presume?Eliot
Here's the OED definition:
Fegalicious: adj - fer-ga-li-shus
As delicious as Fergus was: also used as a general description of something tasty.
Tyrone was fergalicious. It was a fergalicious pizza.
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I have always considered this song to be really Shakesperian. What do you think?
The Twelfth of Never - Johnny Mathis
You ask how much I need you, must I explain?
I need you, oh my darling, like roses need rain.
You ask how long I'll love you; I'll tell you true:
Until the twelfth of never, I'll still be loving you.
Hold me close, never let me go.
Hold me close, melt my heart like April snow.
I'll love you till the bluebells forget to bloom;
I'll love you till the clover has lost its perfume.
I'll love you till the poets run out of rhyme,
Until the twelfth of never and that's a long, long time.
Hold me close, never let me go.
Hold me close, melt my heart like April snow.
I'll love you till the bluebells forget to bloom;
I'll love you till the clover has lost its perfume.
I'll love you till the poets run out of rhyme,
Until the twelfth of never and that's a long, long time.
Until the twelfth of never and that's a long, long time.
How about Elvis' As long as I have you? Perhaps the best love song I have ever heard:
AS LONG AS I HAVE YOU (Elvis Presley)
Let the stars fade and fall
And I won't care at all
As long as I have you
Every kiss brings a thrill
And I know that it will
As long as I have you
Let's think of the future
Forget the past
You're not my first love
But you're my last
Take the love that I bring
Then I'll have everything
As long as I have you
Let's think of the future
Forget the past
You're not my first love
But you're my last
Take the love that I bring
Then I'll have everything
As long as I have you
As long, as long as I have you
Dream as though you'll live forever, live as though you'll die today (James Dean)
I have always considered this song to be really Shakesperian. What do you think?
That should cover it.
Beware of the man with just one book. -Ovid
The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the man who can't read them.- Mark Twain
My Blog: Of Delicious Recoil
http://stlukesguild.tumblr.com/
Could you argument this reaction, please?
Dream as though you'll live forever, live as though you'll die today (James Dean)
I think the problem with trying to read song lyrics taken from Pop or rock songs as poetry in the traditional sense is the structure of the songs themselves. Take this song, "Love and Peace, or Else!" by U2:
On the one hand, the lyrics are moderately clever in that this is either a song where war is a metaphor for a sexual relationship or a song where a relationship is a metaphor for war. Release, release, release can mean sexual release or release of his broken heart through violence. Lay down, can mean lay down for sexual intercourse or lay down your weapons. Break the monster's back can mean sexual intercourse or war can be the monster and you're ending war.Lay down
Lay down
Lay your sweet lovely on the ground
Lay your love on the track
We're gonna break the monster's back
Yes we are...
Lay down your treasure
Lay it down now brother
You don't have time
For a jealous lover
As you enter this life
I pray you depart
With a wrinkled face
And a brand new heart
I don't know if I can take it
I'm not easy on my knees
Here's my heart I'll let you break it
I need some release, release, release
We need
Love and peace
Love and peace
Lay down
Lay down your guns
All your daughters of Zion
All your Abraham sons
I don't know if I can make it
I'm not easy on my knees
Here's my heart I'll let you break it
I need some release, release, release
We need
Love and peace
Love and peace
Baby don't fight
We can talk this thing through
With me, me and you
I'll call on your phone
The TV is still on
But the sound is turned down
And the troops on the ground
Are about to dig in
And I wonder where is the love?
Where is the love?
Love and peace
Where is the love?
Where is the love?
Where is the love?
On the other, this clearly isn't Shakespeare, or Wordsworth, etc. When taken on its own in lyrical form, the repetition of a line like: "I need some release, release, release" seems kind of silly, blunt, and crude. Ditto the ending repetition of: "Where is the love?" Not to mention the expression itself is rather simplistic. The repetition suggests it was made for music in the first place. When backed by the appropriate chords, this kind of repetition works fine and makes sense. It's hard to compare it to poetry of the traditional sense because of the inherent repetition in music related to rock musical structure, usually with a repeating chorus, which thus repeats the same lyrics over and over again.
I think there are a ton of songs that are meaningful and important and great music, but I'm not sure they function as poetry without their musical backing. This isn't to say that the music works by itself without the lyrics either. The two compliment each other. The music gives the lyrics more power and profundity, while the lyrics give a structure and strength to sheer emotional thrust of the music.
"You understand well enough what slavery is, but freedom you have never experienced, so you do not know if it tastes sweet or bitter. If you ever did come to experience it, you would advise us to fight for it not with spears only, but with axes too." - Herodotus
https://consolationofreading.wordpress.com/ - my book blog!
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I think what he's saying is that Shakespeare's songs sound more like
O Mistress mine, where are you roaming?
O, stay and hear! Your truelove's coming,
That can sing both high and low.
Trip no further, pretty sweeting.
Journeys end in lovers meeting,
Every wise man's son doth know.
What is love? 'Tis not hereafter.
Present mirth hath present laughter.
What's to come is still unsure.
In delay there lies no plenty,
Then come kiss me, sweet and twenty.
Youth's a stuff will not endure.
"So-Crates: The only true wisdom consists in knowing that you know nothing." "That's us, dude!"- Bill and Ted
"This ain't over."- Charles Bronson
Feed the Hungry!
"You understand well enough what slavery is, but freedom you have never experienced, so you do not know if it tastes sweet or bitter. If you ever did come to experience it, you would advise us to fight for it not with spears only, but with axes too." - Herodotus
https://consolationofreading.wordpress.com/ - my book blog!
Feed the Hungry!
It's interesting that you compared this song to Shakespeare. I wonder if there is something specific that you have in mind about the song that reminds you of Shakespeare?
For one, the verses have a very regular meter, and they're essentially in iambic pentameter. Three of the four lines in each verse are in iambic pentameter (with an anapest in the fourth foot), and the fourth line is in iambic hexameter (again, with an anapest in the fourth foot). One of the great things about well written lyrics is that they tend to have much more compelling rhythmic structures than other forms of contemporary poetry. It's actually somewhat unique that the verses use pentameter; most songs have shorter lines (for example, the Tool song that Molpadia posted earlier, which is in tetrameter), so that may be one thing that made it feel more like Shakespeare to you than other songs do.
I don't usually associate Shakespeare with heterogeneous stanzas like these (extra foot in the last line, regular anapests), but these features are part of the reason I find Spenser so enjoyable.
As for stlukesguild's comment, I think if you've been around long enough you'd know that he is offended by comparisons of established literary authorities to any kind of popular expression. He's written voluminously on it already, and it's unlikely he'll provide any more insight than he already has.
A number of posters scoffed at the meaningless repetitions that appear when songs are transcribed. I think it's quite reasonable to simply leave out the vocal embellishments of performances (the "yeah, yeah, yeah"s and "oh, oh"s). However, repetitions and refrains are sometimes quite important structures not just in songs, but in non-song poetry as well. Many examples can be found, from Theocritus to Shakespeare (Double, double toil and trouble) to T.S. Eliot.
Finally, everyone here seems quite apologetic about reading song lyrics as poems. As far as I'm concerned, song lyrics are well within the range implied when such random scraps as
andAfraid of losing you
I ran fluttering
like a little girl
after her mother
are regarded as poetry.1(a
le
af
fa
ll
s)
one
l
iness
Last edited by bluevictim; 02-23-2010 at 02:14 AM.
Optima dies ... prima fugit
I somehow find it hard to imagine these lyrics as ordinary peotry because when I'm reading them I automatically fall into the rythm of the songs. Maybe someone who doesn't know the songs will be in better place to comment. Here just some suggestions - and if they don't make for good poetry, they're still awesome songsBy the way, I'm trying to show that even modern punk pop & rock can have cool lyrics..
Hero of War - Rise Against
He said, "Son,
Have you seen the world?
Well, what would you say
If I said that you could?
Just carry this gun, you'll even get paid."
I said, "That sounds pretty good."
Black leather boots
Spit-shined so bright
They cut off my hair
but it looked alright
We marched and we sang
We all became friends
As we learned how to fight
A hero of war
Yeah, that's what I'll be
And when I come home
They'll be damn proud of me
I'll carry this flag
To the grave if I must
'cause it's the flag that I love
And the flag that I trust
I kicked in the door
I yelled my commands
The children, they cried
But I got my man
We took him away
A bag over his face
From his family and his friends
They took off his clothes
They pissed in his hands
I told them to stop
But then I joined in
We beat him with guns
And batons not just once
But again and again
A hero of war
Yeah that's what I'll be
And when I come home
They'll be damn proud of me
I'll carry this flag
To the grave if I must
'cause it's the flag that I love
And the flag that I trust
She walked
through bullets and haze
I asked her to stop
I begged her to stay
But she pressed on
So I lifted my gun
And I fired away
And the shells
jumped through the smoke
And into the sand
That the blood now had soaked
She collapsed
with a flag in her hand
A flag white as snow
A hero of war
Is that what they see
Just medals and scars
So damn proud of me
And I brought home that flag
Now it gathers dust
But it's the flag that I love
It's the only flag I trust
He said, "Son, have you seen the world?
Well what would you say
If I said that you could?"
East Jesus Nowhere (excerpts) - Green Day
Put your faith in a miracle
and it's non-denominational
join the choir we'll be singing
in the Church of Wishful Thinking
A fire burns today
of blasphemy and genocide
the syrens of decay
will infiltrate the faith fanatics
Oh bless me Lord for I have sinned
It's been a lifetime since I last confessed
I threw my crutches in a river of a shadow of doubt
and I'll be dressed in my Sunday best
Say a prayer for the family
drop a coin for humanity
ain't this uniforms so flattering?
I never a asked you a god damn thing!
A fire burns today
of blasphemy and genocide
the syrens of decay
will infiltrate the inside
Tears into Wine (excerps) - Billy Talent
His fate was written on a neon sign
A DUI never changed his mind
He got hooked like a fish caught on a line
You never gave yourself a chance to shine
Your destination's a chalk outline
And when you get to the gates you'll be denied
White Sparrows - Billy Talent
Today I walked down our old street
Past the diner where we'd meet
Now I dine alone in our old seats
The cold wind blows right through my bones
And I feel like I'm getting old
But I wish I was getting old with you
I held your hand while we took shelter from the rain
She laughed as we picked out our children's names
White sparrows fell from heaven and carried her away
Black arrows cut the strings of my heart,
I kneel and pray
Her clothes hang in the closet still
The phone sits on the windowsill
And every time it rings it gives me chills
My heart just stopped when I was told
Doctor, doctor, on the phone
Said my love was never coming home
I hold your casket gently walking to the grave
Dark clouds eclipse the sun won't shine again
White sparrows fell from heaven and carried her away
Black arrows cut the strings of my heart,
I kneel and pray
They gave her one more day
To say the words I couldn't say
I'm crying in pain, crying in pain
And I'm not looking for answers
No, I'm not looking for answers
But dear God, why did you choose her?
White sparrows fell from heaven and carried her away
Black arrows cut the strings of my heart,
I kneel and pray
They gave her one more day
To say the words I couldn't say
I'm crying in pain, crying in pain
Our love will remain
I'm crying in pain.
I don't think repetition is meaningless, so much as structured around song patterns: Lyrics, chorus, lyrics, chorus, bridge, chorus. My point was really that you can't remove the song lyrics from the music itself. The reason the lyrics are repetitive is usually because the music behind it is repetitive.
I mean "Know Your Rights" by The Clash is a great politically-charged song:
But lines like "This is a public service announcement with guitar" clearly lose something when not backed by music. Not to mention if I read it as a straight poem, it comes off as a bit crude and blunt. However, as a song it works well. Listen in The Clash how the music adds both the feeling that we are listening to an actual public service announcement and the malevolent feeling of the nonexistent rights.This is a public service announcement
With guitar
Know your rights all three of them
Number 1
You have the right not to be killed
Murder is a CRIME!
Unless it was done by a
Policeman or aristocrat
Know your rights
And Number 2
You have the right to food money
Providing of course you
Don't mind a little
Investigation, humiliation
And if you cross your fingers
Rehabilitation
Know your rights
These are your rights
Wang
Know these rights
Number 3
You have the right to free
Speech as long as you're not
Dumb enough to actually try it.
Know your rights
These are your rights
All three of 'em
It has been suggested
In some quarters that this is not enough!
Well..............................
Get off the streets
Get off the streets
Run
You don't have a home to go to
Smush
Finally then I will read you your rights
You have the right to remain silent
You are warned that anything you say
Can and will be taken down
And used as evidence against you
Listen to this
Run
I am all for music as a kind of poetry. In an American poetry class where we read poetry from 1800s onward: poets like Pound, Frost, Whitman, etc. were included, but we also had the Beat Poets, Bukowski, Slam Poets, and even a modern poet talking about the art of ***-licking (don't remember who the poet was). The last class we were all told to pick a favorite song and print out the lyrics, each person had to present the song, given background on the musical style, on the band itself, and give a quick interpretation of the lyrics and why they liked the song so much. For me I just don't think you can remove the music.
"You understand well enough what slavery is, but freedom you have never experienced, so you do not know if it tastes sweet or bitter. If you ever did come to experience it, you would advise us to fight for it not with spears only, but with axes too." - Herodotus
https://consolationofreading.wordpress.com/ - my book blog!
Feed the Hungry!
Yes, some of Shakespeare's best songs are repetitive.
or how aboutBlow, blow, thou winter wind,
Thou art not so unkind
As man's ingratitude;
Thy tooth is not so keen
Because thou art not seen,
Although thy breath be rude.
Heigh-ho! sing heigh-ho! unto the green holly:
Most friendship is feigning, most loving mere folly:
Then, heigh-ho! the holly!
This life is most jolly.
Freeze, freeze, thou bitter sky,
Thou dost not bite so nigh
As benefits forgot:
Though thou the waters warp,
Thy sting is not so sharp
As friend remember'd not.
Heigh-ho! sing heigh-ho! unto the green holly:
Most friendship is feigning, most loving mere folly:
Then, heigh-ho! the holly!
This life is most jolly.
I am reminded of Blake's Jerusalem HymnWhen that I was and a little tiny boy,
With hey, ho, the wind and the rain,
A foolish thing was but a toy,
For the rain it raineth every day.
But when I came to man’s estate,
With hey, ho, the wind and the rain,
’Gainst knaves and thieves men shut their gate,
For the rain it raineth every day.
But when I came, alas! to wive,
With hey, ho, the wind and the rain,
By swaggering could I never thrive,
For the rain it raineth every day.
But when I came unto my beds,
With hey, ho, the wind and the rain,
With toss-pots still had drunken heads,
For the rain it raineth every day.
A great while ago the world begun,
With hey, ho, the wind and the rain,
But that’s all one, our play is done,
And we’ll strive to please you every day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKaJ4b0XYmIAnd did those feet in ancient time
Walk upon England's mountains green?
And was the holy Lamb of God
On England's pleasant pastures seen?
And did the Countenance Divine
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was Jerusalem builded here
Among those dark Satanic mills?
Bring me my bow of burning gold:
Bring me my arrows of desire:
Bring me my spear: O clouds, unfold!
Bring me my chariot of fire!
I will not cease from mental fight,
Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand
Till we have built Jerusalem
In England's green and pleasant land.
And though I could not find any on the web, I know I've heard Wyatt's sonnets set to music before. Oh well, I did find these English Madrigals.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hd0oZXi-YgsApril is in my mistress' face,
And July in her eyes hath place;
Within her bosom is September,
But in her heart a cold December.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_lD4cYjkj0Fair Phyllis I saw sitting all alone
Feeding her flock near to the mountain side.
The shepherds knew not,
they knew not whither she was gone,
But after her lover Amyntas hied,
Up and down he wandered
whilst she was missing;
When he found her,
O then they fell a-kissing.
"So-Crates: The only true wisdom consists in knowing that you know nothing." "That's us, dude!"- Bill and Ted
"This ain't over."- Charles Bronson
Feed the Hungry!
I agree that there are common forms of song, and I agree that the repetition of lyrics found in many songs are closely related to the form of the song. I disagree that the lyrics are usually repetitive merely because the music behind it is repetitive.
The refrains found so commonly in songs serve many purposes beyond just being verbal filler for the music. Sometimes they provide segues between different episodes of a narrative. Sometimes they serve as a point of contact for otherwise disparate (or not obviously connected) observations. Often they reinforce a central theme of the song. The repetition is often very crucial to the economy with which many songs achieve a deep emotional effect. The repetition is usually entirely intentional, and not merely because the music happens to repeat; after all, the music of the verses repeat, too, but the lyrics usually do not.
As an example, I think the Beatles' Eleanor Rigby is quite an effective song about loneliness, which is not atypical in its use of a refrain. The pad between the verse about Eleanor Rigby and Father MacKenzie helps to create the tension in the narrative whose resolution comes when the two threads come together (when Father MacKenzie buries Eleanor Rigby). At the same time, it deepens the emotional response of the audience to the bare wisps of narrative provided in the verses.
I also somewhat disagree that you can't remove the lyrics from the music. I think it goes without saying that the music enhances the song (in most cases), and it's quite clear that the lyrics of some songs are particularly reliant on the music (and even sometimes sound effects) -- that Clash song being a great example. However, there are many songs whose lyrics do repay attention even apart from their music. Sometimes, I find reading the lyrics without the music even reveals things about the song that I miss when I listen to the song because my visceral response to the music makes me overlook them.
Optima dies ... prima fugit
Has anyone mentioned W. S. Gilbert from Gilbert and Sullivan? He was knighted long after Sullivan presumable because of his very critical view of politics.
His librettos are biting but often their beauty is overlooked.
King.
Oh, better far to live and die
Under the brave black flag I fly,
Than play a sanctimonious part,
With a pirate head and a pirate heart.
Away to the cheating world go you,
Where pirates all are well-to-do;
But I’ll be true to the song I sing,
And live and die a Pirate King.
For I am a Pirate King!
And it is, it is a glorious thing
To be a Pirate King!
For I am a Pirate King!
Chorus.
You are!
Hurrah for our Pirate King!
King.
And it is, it is a glorious thing
To be a Pirate King.
Chorus.
It is!
Hurrah for our Pirate King!
King & Chorus.
Hurrah for the/our Pirate King!
King. Darrell Fancourt as the Pirate King
1926
When I sally forth to seek my prey
I help myself in a royal way.
I sink a few more ships, it’s true,
Than a well-bred monarch ought to do;
But many a king on a first-class throne,
If he wants to call his crown his own,
Must manage somehow to get through
More dirty work than ever I do,
For I am a Pirate King!
And it is, it is a glorious thing
To be a Pirate King!
For I am a Pirate King!
Chorus.
You are!
Hurrah for the Pirate King!
King.
And it is, it is a glorious thing
To be a Pirate King.
Chorus.
It is!
Hurrah for our Pirate King!
King & Chorus.
Hurrah for the/our Pirate King!
And of course the Major General's solo. This time do it REALLY fast!
I am the very model of a modern Major-General,
I've information vegetable, animal, and mineral,
I know the kings of England, and I quote the fights historical
From Marathon to Waterloo, in order categorical;
I'm very well acquainted, too, with matters mathematical,
I understand equations, both the simple and quadratical,
About binomial theorem I'm teeming with a lot o' news,
With many cheerful facts about the square of the hypotenuse.
I'm very good at integral and differential calculus;
I know the scientific names of beings animalculous:
In short, in matters vegetable, animal, and mineral,
I am the very model of a modern Major-General.
I know our mythic history, King Arthur's and Sir Caradoc's;
I answer hard acrostics, I've a pretty taste for paradox,
I quote in elegiacs all the crimes of Heliogabalus,
In conics I can floor peculiarities parabolous;
I can tell undoubted Raphaels from Gerard Dows and Zoffanies,
I know the croaking chorus from The Frogs of Aristophanes!
Then I can hum a fugue of which I've heard the music's din afore,
And whistle all the airs from that infernal nonsense Pinafore.
Then I can write a washing bill in Babylonic cuneiform,
And tell you ev'ry detail of Caractacus's uniform:
In short, in matters vegetable, animal, and mineral,
I am the very model of a modern Major-General.
In fact, when I know what is meant by "mamelon" and "ravelin",
When I can tell at sight a Mauser rifle from a javelin,
When such affairs as sorties and surprises I'm more wary at,
And when I know precisely what is meant by "commissariat",
When I have learnt what progress has been made in modern gunnery,
When I know more of tactics than a novice in a nunnery—
In short, when I've a smattering of elemental strategy—
You'll say a better Major-General has never sat a gee.
For my military knowledge, though I'm plucky and adventury,
Has only been brought down to the beginning of the century;
But still, in matters vegetable, animal, and mineral,
I am the very model of a modern Major-General.
I'm not sure you're comments disagree with anything I said. Lyrics are repetitive because the musical patterns are repetitive. Choruses, of course, provide the central theme for the musical composition of a rock song, hence why they repeat the choruses in the first place (both musically and lyrically), and serve as segues between the lyrics. It's the glue so to speak of a song.
I think lyrics can be very meaningful. I just don't think they're meant to be read as poetry in the same way a Shakespeare poem is supposed to be read.
I mean I like The Rolling Stones a lot, but is "Hot Stuff" really all that deep song?
And what about songs that fulfill part of the thematic work through solos when there isn't any lyrics being song, such as the solo guitar work in Metallica's Ride the Lightning, which imitates lightning coursing through someone's body (at 3:43, although the solo starts earlier than that, I consider that the "lightning coursing through a body" part).Hot stuff, yeah
Hot stuff
Hot stuff, yeah
Hot stuff
Can't get enough
Hot stuff, yeah
Hot stuff
Hot stuff
Can't get enough
The music is mighty, mighty fine
Hot stuff
Hot stuff
Can't get enough
Hot stuff
Can't get enough
Hot stuff
Can't get enough
The music is mighty, mighty fine
Hot stuff
Hot stuff
I can't get enough
Hot stuff
Play it rough, yeah
I can't get enough
'Cause music is what I want
To keep my body always moving, yeah
Shake it up
Hot stuff
Every day I need another dose
I can't stand it when the music stop
Hot stuff
Everybody on the dancefloor
You know what I'm talkin' about
Music make you forget all your trouble
Make you kiss and make you tell the whole wide world
So what
Hot stuff
Hot stuff
Shake it up
Shake it up
I wanna tell all my friends in London
There ain't nothin' wrong with you
But you better shape up, yeah
Shake it up
You're hot stuff
All the people in New York City
I know you are goin' broke
But I know you're tough, yeah
You're hot stuff
Hot stuff
To everybody in Jamaica
That is workin' in the sun
You're hot
You're hot stuff
Shake it up
Shake it up
You're hot stuff
Hot stuff
Play it rough
Hot stuff
Shake it up
Hot stuff
Rarely do lyrics reach the depth of any of Shakespeare's poetry by themselves. Looking at the variety of lyrics posted here in this thread hasn't changed my mind at all on that point. However, I think lyrics can be meaningful. I'm certainly not calling them meaningless and vapid. I thought the U2 lyrics that I posted were meaningful.
"You understand well enough what slavery is, but freedom you have never experienced, so you do not know if it tastes sweet or bitter. If you ever did come to experience it, you would advise us to fight for it not with spears only, but with axes too." - Herodotus
https://consolationofreading.wordpress.com/ - my book blog!
Feed the Hungry!