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Thread: Song lyrics that can stand alone as poetry

  1. #121
    Bright Star Heathcliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulclem View Post
    It is an Irish cannibal word referring to the fact that fergus is delicious.
    Hilarious. So if I call someone Fergalicious it means I want to eat them? Hilarious.
    For I have known them all already, known them all:
    Have known the evenings, mornings, afternoons,
    I have measured out my life with coffee spoons;
    I know the voices dying with a dying fall
    Beneath the music from a farther room.

    So how should I presume?
    Eliot

  2. #122
    TobeFrank Paulclem's Avatar
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    Here's the OED definition:

    Fegalicious: adj - fer-ga-li-shus
    As delicious as Fergus was: also used as a general description of something tasty.
    Tyrone was fergalicious. It was a fergalicious pizza.


  3. #123
    Ars longa, vita brevis downing's Avatar
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    I have always considered this song to be really Shakesperian. What do you think?

    The Twelfth of Never - Johnny Mathis

    You ask how much I need you, must I explain?
    I need you, oh my darling, like roses need rain.
    You ask how long I'll love you; I'll tell you true:
    Until the twelfth of never, I'll still be loving you.

    Hold me close, never let me go.
    Hold me close, melt my heart like April snow.

    I'll love you till the bluebells forget to bloom;
    I'll love you till the clover has lost its perfume.
    I'll love you till the poets run out of rhyme,
    Until the twelfth of never and that's a long, long time.

    Hold me close, never let me go.
    Hold me close, melt my heart like April snow.

    I'll love you till the bluebells forget to bloom;
    I'll love you till the clover has lost its perfume.
    I'll love you till the poets run out of rhyme,
    Until the twelfth of never and that's a long, long time.

    Until the twelfth of never and that's a long, long time.

    How about Elvis' As long as I have you? Perhaps the best love song I have ever heard:
    AS LONG AS I HAVE YOU (Elvis Presley)

    Let the stars fade and fall
    And I won't care at all
    As long as I have you

    Every kiss brings a thrill
    And I know that it will
    As long as I have you

    Let's think of the future
    Forget the past
    You're not my first love
    But you're my last
    Take the love that I bring
    Then I'll have everything
    As long as I have you

    Let's think of the future
    Forget the past
    You're not my first love
    But you're my last
    Take the love that I bring
    Then I'll have everything
    As long as I have you

    As long, as long as I have you
    Dream as though you'll live forever, live as though you'll die today (James Dean)

  4. #124
    Artist and Bibliophile stlukesguild's Avatar
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    I have always considered this song to be really Shakesperian. What do you think?



    That should cover it.
    Beware of the man with just one book. -Ovid
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  5. #125
    Ars longa, vita brevis downing's Avatar
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    Could you argument this reaction, please?
    Dream as though you'll live forever, live as though you'll die today (James Dean)

  6. #126
    Bibliophile Drkshadow03's Avatar
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    I think the problem with trying to read song lyrics taken from Pop or rock songs as poetry in the traditional sense is the structure of the songs themselves. Take this song, "Love and Peace, or Else!" by U2:

    Lay down
    Lay down
    Lay your sweet lovely on the ground
    Lay your love on the track
    We're gonna break the monster's back
    Yes we are...
    Lay down your treasure
    Lay it down now brother
    You don't have time
    For a jealous lover

    As you enter this life
    I pray you depart
    With a wrinkled face
    And a brand new heart

    I don't know if I can take it
    I'm not easy on my knees
    Here's my heart I'll let you break it

    I need some release, release, release

    We need
    Love and peace
    Love and peace

    Lay down
    Lay down your guns
    All your daughters of Zion
    All your Abraham sons
    I don't know if I can make it
    I'm not easy on my knees
    Here's my heart I'll let you break it
    I need some release, release, release

    We need
    Love and peace
    Love and peace

    Baby don't fight
    We can talk this thing through
    With me, me and you
    I'll call on your phone
    The TV is still on
    But the sound is turned down
    And the troops on the ground
    Are about to dig in

    And I wonder where is the love?
    Where is the love?
    Love and peace
    Where is the love?
    Where is the love?
    Where is the love?
    On the one hand, the lyrics are moderately clever in that this is either a song where war is a metaphor for a sexual relationship or a song where a relationship is a metaphor for war. Release, release, release can mean sexual release or release of his broken heart through violence. Lay down, can mean lay down for sexual intercourse or lay down your weapons. Break the monster's back can mean sexual intercourse or war can be the monster and you're ending war.

    On the other, this clearly isn't Shakespeare, or Wordsworth, etc. When taken on its own in lyrical form, the repetition of a line like: "I need some release, release, release" seems kind of silly, blunt, and crude. Ditto the ending repetition of: "Where is the love?" Not to mention the expression itself is rather simplistic. The repetition suggests it was made for music in the first place. When backed by the appropriate chords, this kind of repetition works fine and makes sense. It's hard to compare it to poetry of the traditional sense because of the inherent repetition in music related to rock musical structure, usually with a repeating chorus, which thus repeats the same lyrics over and over again.

    I think there are a ton of songs that are meaningful and important and great music, but I'm not sure they function as poetry without their musical backing. This isn't to say that the music works by itself without the lyrics either. The two compliment each other. The music gives the lyrics more power and profundity, while the lyrics give a structure and strength to sheer emotional thrust of the music.
    "You understand well enough what slavery is, but freedom you have never experienced, so you do not know if it tastes sweet or bitter. If you ever did come to experience it, you would advise us to fight for it not with spears only, but with axes too." - Herodotus

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  7. #127
    Alea iacta est. mortalterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by downing View Post
    Could you argument this reaction, please?
    I think what he's saying is that Shakespeare's songs sound more like

    O Mistress mine, where are you roaming?
    O, stay and hear! Your truelove's coming,
    That can sing both high and low.
    Trip no further, pretty sweeting.
    Journeys end in lovers meeting,
    Every wise man's son doth know.

    What is love? 'Tis not hereafter.
    Present mirth hath present laughter.
    What's to come is still unsure.
    In delay there lies no plenty,
    Then come kiss me, sweet and twenty.
    Youth's a stuff will not endure.
    "So-Crates: The only true wisdom consists in knowing that you know nothing." "That's us, dude!"- Bill and Ted
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  8. #128
    Bibliophile Drkshadow03's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mortalterror View Post
    I think what he's saying is that Shakespeare's songs sound more like

    O Mistress mine, where are you roaming?
    O, stay and hear! Your truelove's coming,
    That can sing both high and low.
    Trip no further, pretty sweeting.
    Journeys end in lovers meeting,
    Every wise man's son doth know.

    What is love? 'Tis not hereafter.
    Present mirth hath present laughter.
    What's to come is still unsure.
    In delay there lies no plenty,
    Then come kiss me, sweet and twenty.
    Youth's a stuff will not endure.
    Pssh, "I wanna rock and roll all nite and party every day!"

    Take that Shakespeare!
    "You understand well enough what slavery is, but freedom you have never experienced, so you do not know if it tastes sweet or bitter. If you ever did come to experience it, you would advise us to fight for it not with spears only, but with axes too." - Herodotus

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  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by downing View Post
    I have always considered this song to be really Shakesperian. What do you think?

    The Twelfth of Never - Johnny Mathis

    You ask how much I need you, must I explain?
    I need you, oh my darling, like roses need rain.
    You ask how long I'll love you; I'll tell you true:
    Until the twelfth of never, I'll still be loving you.

    Hold me close, never let me go.
    Hold me close, melt my heart like April snow.

    I'll love you till the bluebells forget to bloom;
    I'll love you till the clover has lost its perfume.
    I'll love you till the poets run out of rhyme,
    Until the twelfth of never and that's a long, long time.

    Hold me close, never let me go.
    Hold me close, melt my heart like April snow.
    It's interesting that you compared this song to Shakespeare. I wonder if there is something specific that you have in mind about the song that reminds you of Shakespeare?

    For one, the verses have a very regular meter, and they're essentially in iambic pentameter. Three of the four lines in each verse are in iambic pentameter (with an anapest in the fourth foot), and the fourth line is in iambic hexameter (again, with an anapest in the fourth foot). One of the great things about well written lyrics is that they tend to have much more compelling rhythmic structures than other forms of contemporary poetry. It's actually somewhat unique that the verses use pentameter; most songs have shorter lines (for example, the Tool song that Molpadia posted earlier, which is in tetrameter), so that may be one thing that made it feel more like Shakespeare to you than other songs do.

    I don't usually associate Shakespeare with heterogeneous stanzas like these (extra foot in the last line, regular anapests), but these features are part of the reason I find Spenser so enjoyable.

    As for stlukesguild's comment, I think if you've been around long enough you'd know that he is offended by comparisons of established literary authorities to any kind of popular expression. He's written voluminously on it already, and it's unlikely he'll provide any more insight than he already has.

    A number of posters scoffed at the meaningless repetitions that appear when songs are transcribed. I think it's quite reasonable to simply leave out the vocal embellishments of performances (the "yeah, yeah, yeah"s and "oh, oh"s). However, repetitions and refrains are sometimes quite important structures not just in songs, but in non-song poetry as well. Many examples can be found, from Theocritus to Shakespeare (Double, double toil and trouble) to T.S. Eliot.

    Finally, everyone here seems quite apologetic about reading song lyrics as poems. As far as I'm concerned, song lyrics are well within the range implied when such random scraps as
    Afraid of losing you

    I ran fluttering
    like a little girl
    after her mother
    and
    1(a

    le
    af
    fa
    ll

    s)
    one
    l

    iness
    are regarded as poetry.
    Last edited by bluevictim; 02-23-2010 at 02:14 AM.
    Optima dies ... prima fugit

  10. #130
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    I somehow find it hard to imagine these lyrics as ordinary peotry because when I'm reading them I automatically fall into the rythm of the songs. Maybe someone who doesn't know the songs will be in better place to comment. Here just some suggestions - and if they don't make for good poetry, they're still awesome songs By the way, I'm trying to show that even modern punk pop & rock can have cool lyrics..


    Hero of War - Rise Against

    He said, "Son,
    Have you seen the world?
    Well, what would you say
    If I said that you could?
    Just carry this gun, you'll even get paid."
    I said, "That sounds pretty good."

    Black leather boots
    Spit-shined so bright
    They cut off my hair
    but it looked alright
    We marched and we sang
    We all became friends
    As we learned how to fight

    A hero of war
    Yeah, that's what I'll be
    And when I come home
    They'll be damn proud of me
    I'll carry this flag
    To the grave if I must
    'cause it's the flag that I love
    And the flag that I trust

    I kicked in the door
    I yelled my commands
    The children, they cried
    But I got my man
    We took him away
    A bag over his face
    From his family and his friends

    They took off his clothes
    They pissed in his hands
    I told them to stop
    But then I joined in
    We beat him with guns
    And batons not just once
    But again and again

    A hero of war
    Yeah that's what I'll be
    And when I come home
    They'll be damn proud of me
    I'll carry this flag
    To the grave if I must
    'cause it's the flag that I love
    And the flag that I trust

    She walked
    through bullets and haze
    I asked her to stop
    I begged her to stay
    But she pressed on
    So I lifted my gun
    And I fired away

    And the shells
    jumped through the smoke
    And into the sand
    That the blood now had soaked
    She collapsed
    with a flag in her hand
    A flag white as snow

    A hero of war
    Is that what they see
    Just medals and scars
    So damn proud of me
    And I brought home that flag
    Now it gathers dust
    But it's the flag that I love
    It's the only flag I trust

    He said, "Son, have you seen the world?
    Well what would you say
    If I said that you could?"



    East Jesus Nowhere (excerpts) - Green Day

    Put your faith in a miracle
    and it's non-denominational
    join the choir we'll be singing
    in the Church of Wishful Thinking

    A fire burns today
    of blasphemy and genocide
    the syrens of decay
    will infiltrate the faith fanatics

    Oh bless me Lord for I have sinned
    It's been a lifetime since I last confessed
    I threw my crutches in a river of a shadow of doubt
    and I'll be dressed in my Sunday best

    Say a prayer for the family
    drop a coin for humanity
    ain't this uniforms so flattering?
    I never a asked you a god damn thing!

    A fire burns today
    of blasphemy and genocide
    the syrens of decay
    will infiltrate the inside


    Tears into Wine (excerps) - Billy Talent

    His fate was written on a neon sign
    A DUI never changed his mind
    He got hooked like a fish caught on a line

    You never gave yourself a chance to shine
    Your destination's a chalk outline
    And when you get to the gates you'll be denied


    White Sparrows - Billy Talent

    Today I walked down our old street
    Past the diner where we'd meet
    Now I dine alone in our old seats
    The cold wind blows right through my bones
    And I feel like I'm getting old
    But I wish I was getting old with you

    I held your hand while we took shelter from the rain
    She laughed as we picked out our children's names

    White sparrows fell from heaven and carried her away
    Black arrows cut the strings of my heart,
    I kneel and pray

    Her clothes hang in the closet still
    The phone sits on the windowsill
    And every time it rings it gives me chills
    My heart just stopped when I was told
    Doctor, doctor, on the phone
    Said my love was never coming home

    I hold your casket gently walking to the grave
    Dark clouds eclipse the sun won't shine again

    White sparrows fell from heaven and carried her away
    Black arrows cut the strings of my heart,
    I kneel and pray

    They gave her one more day
    To say the words I couldn't say
    I'm crying in pain, crying in pain

    And I'm not looking for answers
    No, I'm not looking for answers
    But dear God, why did you choose her?

    White sparrows fell from heaven and carried her away
    Black arrows cut the strings of my heart,
    I kneel and pray

    They gave her one more day
    To say the words I couldn't say
    I'm crying in pain, crying in pain
    Our love will remain
    I'm crying in pain.

  11. #131
    Bibliophile Drkshadow03's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluevictim View Post

    A number of posters scoffed at the meaningless repetitions that appear when songs are transcribed. I think it's quite reasonable to simply leave out the vocal embellishments of performances (the "yeah, yeah, yeah"s and "oh, oh"s). However, repetitions and refrains are sometimes quite important structures not just in songs, but in non-song poetry as well. Many examples can be found, from Theocritus to Shakespeare (Double, double toil and trouble) to T.S. Eliot.

    Finally, everyone here seems quite apologetic about reading song lyrics as poems. As far as I'm concerned, song lyrics are well within the range implied when such random scraps as

    and

    are regarded as poetry.
    I don't think repetition is meaningless, so much as structured around song patterns: Lyrics, chorus, lyrics, chorus, bridge, chorus. My point was really that you can't remove the song lyrics from the music itself. The reason the lyrics are repetitive is usually because the music behind it is repetitive.

    I mean "Know Your Rights" by The Clash is a great politically-charged song:

    This is a public service announcement
    With guitar
    Know your rights all three of them

    Number 1
    You have the right not to be killed
    Murder is a CRIME!
    Unless it was done by a
    Policeman or aristocrat
    Know your rights

    And Number 2
    You have the right to food money
    Providing of course you
    Don't mind a little
    Investigation, humiliation
    And if you cross your fingers
    Rehabilitation

    Know your rights
    These are your rights
    Wang

    Know these rights

    Number 3
    You have the right to free
    Speech as long as you're not
    Dumb enough to actually try it.

    Know your rights
    These are your rights
    All three of 'em
    It has been suggested
    In some quarters that this is not enough!
    Well..............................

    Get off the streets
    Get off the streets
    Run
    You don't have a home to go to
    Smush

    Finally then I will read you your rights

    You have the right to remain silent
    You are warned that anything you say
    Can and will be taken down
    And used as evidence against you

    Listen to this
    Run
    But lines like "This is a public service announcement with guitar" clearly lose something when not backed by music. Not to mention if I read it as a straight poem, it comes off as a bit crude and blunt. However, as a song it works well. Listen in The Clash how the music adds both the feeling that we are listening to an actual public service announcement and the malevolent feeling of the nonexistent rights.

    I am all for music as a kind of poetry. In an American poetry class where we read poetry from 1800s onward: poets like Pound, Frost, Whitman, etc. were included, but we also had the Beat Poets, Bukowski, Slam Poets, and even a modern poet talking about the art of ***-licking (don't remember who the poet was). The last class we were all told to pick a favorite song and print out the lyrics, each person had to present the song, given background on the musical style, on the band itself, and give a quick interpretation of the lyrics and why they liked the song so much. For me I just don't think you can remove the music.
    "You understand well enough what slavery is, but freedom you have never experienced, so you do not know if it tastes sweet or bitter. If you ever did come to experience it, you would advise us to fight for it not with spears only, but with axes too." - Herodotus

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  12. #132
    Alea iacta est. mortalterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drkshadow03 View Post
    I don't think repetition is meaningless, so much as structured around song patterns: Lyrics, chorus, lyrics, chorus, bridge, chorus.
    Yes, some of Shakespeare's best songs are repetitive.

    Blow, blow, thou winter wind,
    Thou art not so unkind
    As man's ingratitude;
    Thy tooth is not so keen
    Because thou art not seen,
    Although thy breath be rude.
    Heigh-ho! sing heigh-ho! unto the green holly:
    Most friendship is feigning, most loving mere folly:
    Then, heigh-ho! the holly!
    This life is most jolly.

    Freeze, freeze, thou bitter sky,
    Thou dost not bite so nigh
    As benefits forgot:
    Though thou the waters warp,
    Thy sting is not so sharp
    As friend remember'd not.
    Heigh-ho! sing heigh-ho! unto the green holly:
    Most friendship is feigning, most loving mere folly:
    Then, heigh-ho! the holly!
    This life is most jolly.
    or how about

    When that I was and a little tiny boy,
    With hey, ho, the wind and the rain,
    A foolish thing was but a toy,
    For the rain it raineth every day.

    But when I came to man’s estate,
    With hey, ho, the wind and the rain,
    ’Gainst knaves and thieves men shut their gate,
    For the rain it raineth every day.

    But when I came, alas! to wive,
    With hey, ho, the wind and the rain,
    By swaggering could I never thrive,
    For the rain it raineth every day.

    But when I came unto my beds,
    With hey, ho, the wind and the rain,
    With toss-pots still had drunken heads,
    For the rain it raineth every day.

    A great while ago the world begun,
    With hey, ho, the wind and the rain,
    But that’s all one, our play is done,
    And we’ll strive to please you every day.
    I am reminded of Blake's Jerusalem Hymn

    And did those feet in ancient time
    Walk upon England's mountains green?
    And was the holy Lamb of God
    On England's pleasant pastures seen?
    And did the Countenance Divine
    Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
    And was Jerusalem builded here
    Among those dark Satanic mills?

    Bring me my bow of burning gold:
    Bring me my arrows of desire:
    Bring me my spear: O clouds, unfold!
    Bring me my chariot of fire!
    I will not cease from mental fight,
    Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand
    Till we have built Jerusalem
    In England's green and pleasant land.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKaJ4b0XYmI
    And though I could not find any on the web, I know I've heard Wyatt's sonnets set to music before. Oh well, I did find these English Madrigals.
    April is in my mistress' face,
    And July in her eyes hath place;
    Within her bosom is September,
    But in her heart a cold December.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hd0oZXi-Ygs
    Fair Phyllis I saw sitting all alone
    Feeding her flock near to the mountain side.
    The shepherds knew not,
    they knew not whither she was gone,
    But after her lover Amyntas hied,
    Up and down he wandered
    whilst she was missing;
    When he found her,
    O then they fell a-kissing.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_lD4cYjkj0
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  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Drkshadow03 View Post
    I don't think repetition is meaningless, so much as structured around song patterns: Lyrics, chorus, lyrics, chorus, bridge, chorus. My point was really that you can't remove the song lyrics from the music itself. The reason the lyrics are repetitive is usually because the music behind it is repetitive.

    I mean "Know Your Rights" by The Clash is a great politically-charged song:

    ...

    But lines like "This is a public service announcement with guitar" clearly lose something when not backed by music. Not to mention if I read it as a straight poem, it comes off as a bit crude and blunt. However, as a song it works well. Listen in The Clash how the music adds both the feeling that we are listening to an actual public service announcement and the malevolent feeling of the nonexistent rights.
    I agree that there are common forms of song, and I agree that the repetition of lyrics found in many songs are closely related to the form of the song. I disagree that the lyrics are usually repetitive merely because the music behind it is repetitive.

    The refrains found so commonly in songs serve many purposes beyond just being verbal filler for the music. Sometimes they provide segues between different episodes of a narrative. Sometimes they serve as a point of contact for otherwise disparate (or not obviously connected) observations. Often they reinforce a central theme of the song. The repetition is often very crucial to the economy with which many songs achieve a deep emotional effect. The repetition is usually entirely intentional, and not merely because the music happens to repeat; after all, the music of the verses repeat, too, but the lyrics usually do not.

    As an example, I think the Beatles' Eleanor Rigby is quite an effective song about loneliness, which is not atypical in its use of a refrain. The pad between the verse about Eleanor Rigby and Father MacKenzie helps to create the tension in the narrative whose resolution comes when the two threads come together (when Father MacKenzie buries Eleanor Rigby). At the same time, it deepens the emotional response of the audience to the bare wisps of narrative provided in the verses.

    I also somewhat disagree that you can't remove the lyrics from the music. I think it goes without saying that the music enhances the song (in most cases), and it's quite clear that the lyrics of some songs are particularly reliant on the music (and even sometimes sound effects) -- that Clash song being a great example. However, there are many songs whose lyrics do repay attention even apart from their music. Sometimes, I find reading the lyrics without the music even reveals things about the song that I miss when I listen to the song because my visceral response to the music makes me overlook them.
    Optima dies ... prima fugit

  14. #134
    Neo-Scriblerus Modest Proposal's Avatar
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    Has anyone mentioned W. S. Gilbert from Gilbert and Sullivan? He was knighted long after Sullivan presumable because of his very critical view of politics.

    His librettos are biting but often their beauty is overlooked.

    King.
    Oh, better far to live and die
    Under the brave black flag I fly,
    Than play a sanctimonious part,
    With a pirate head and a pirate heart.
    Away to the cheating world go you,
    Where pirates all are well-to-do;
    But I’ll be true to the song I sing,
    And live and die a Pirate King.

    For I am a Pirate King!
    And it is, it is a glorious thing
    To be a Pirate King!

    For I am a Pirate King!
    Chorus.
    You are!
    Hurrah for our Pirate King!
    King.
    And it is, it is a glorious thing
    To be a Pirate King.
    Chorus.
    It is!
    Hurrah for our Pirate King!
    King & Chorus.
    Hurrah for the/our Pirate King!

    King. Darrell Fancourt as the Pirate King
    1926

    When I sally forth to seek my prey
    I help myself in a royal way.
    I sink a few more ships, it’s true,
    Than a well-bred monarch ought to do;
    But many a king on a first-class throne,
    If he wants to call his crown his own,
    Must manage somehow to get through
    More dirty work than ever I do,

    For I am a Pirate King!
    And it is, it is a glorious thing
    To be a Pirate King!

    For I am a Pirate King!
    Chorus.
    You are!
    Hurrah for the Pirate King!
    King.
    And it is, it is a glorious thing
    To be a Pirate King.
    Chorus.
    It is!
    Hurrah for our Pirate King!
    King & Chorus.
    Hurrah for the/our Pirate King!



    And of course the Major General's solo. This time do it REALLY fast!

    I am the very model of a modern Major-General,
    I've information vegetable, animal, and mineral,
    I know the kings of England, and I quote the fights historical
    From Marathon to Waterloo, in order categorical;
    I'm very well acquainted, too, with matters mathematical,
    I understand equations, both the simple and quadratical,
    About binomial theorem I'm teeming with a lot o' news,
    With many cheerful facts about the square of the hypotenuse.
    I'm very good at integral and differential calculus;
    I know the scientific names of beings animalculous:
    In short, in matters vegetable, animal, and mineral,
    I am the very model of a modern Major-General.
    I know our mythic history, King Arthur's and Sir Caradoc's;
    I answer hard acrostics, I've a pretty taste for paradox,
    I quote in elegiacs all the crimes of Heliogabalus,
    In conics I can floor peculiarities parabolous;
    I can tell undoubted Raphaels from Gerard Dows and Zoffanies,
    I know the croaking chorus from The Frogs of Aristophanes!
    Then I can hum a fugue of which I've heard the music's din afore,
    And whistle all the airs from that infernal nonsense Pinafore.
    Then I can write a washing bill in Babylonic cuneiform,
    And tell you ev'ry detail of Caractacus's uniform:
    In short, in matters vegetable, animal, and mineral,
    I am the very model of a modern Major-General.
    In fact, when I know what is meant by "mamelon" and "ravelin",
    When I can tell at sight a Mauser rifle from a javelin,
    When such affairs as sorties and surprises I'm more wary at,
    And when I know precisely what is meant by "commissariat",
    When I have learnt what progress has been made in modern gunnery,
    When I know more of tactics than a novice in a nunnery—
    In short, when I've a smattering of elemental strategy—
    You'll say a better Major-General has never sat a gee.
    For my military knowledge, though I'm plucky and adventury,
    Has only been brought down to the beginning of the century;
    But still, in matters vegetable, animal, and mineral,
    I am the very model of a modern Major-General.

  15. #135
    Bibliophile Drkshadow03's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluevictim View Post
    I agree that there are common forms of song, and I agree that the repetition of lyrics found in many songs are closely related to the form of the song. I disagree that the lyrics are usually repetitive merely because the music behind it is repetitive.

    The refrains found so commonly in songs serve many purposes beyond just being verbal filler for the music. Sometimes they provide segues between different episodes of a narrative. Sometimes they serve as a point of contact for otherwise disparate (or not obviously connected) observations. Often they reinforce a central theme of the song. The repetition is often very crucial to the economy with which many songs achieve a deep emotional effect. The repetition is usually entirely intentional, and not merely because the music happens to repeat; after all, the music of the verses repeat, too, but the lyrics usually do not.

    As an example, I think the Beatles' Eleanor Rigby is quite an effective song about loneliness, which is not atypical in its use of a refrain. The pad between the verse about Eleanor Rigby and Father MacKenzie helps to create the tension in the narrative whose resolution comes when the two threads come together (when Father MacKenzie buries Eleanor Rigby). At the same time, it deepens the emotional response of the audience to the bare wisps of narrative provided in the verses.

    I also somewhat disagree that you can't remove the lyrics from the music. I think it goes without saying that the music enhances the song (in most cases), and it's quite clear that the lyrics of some songs are particularly reliant on the music (and even sometimes sound effects) -- that Clash song being a great example. However, there are many songs whose lyrics do repay attention even apart from their music. Sometimes, I find reading the lyrics without the music even reveals things about the song that I miss when I listen to the song because my visceral response to the music makes me overlook them.
    I'm not sure you're comments disagree with anything I said. Lyrics are repetitive because the musical patterns are repetitive. Choruses, of course, provide the central theme for the musical composition of a rock song, hence why they repeat the choruses in the first place (both musically and lyrically), and serve as segues between the lyrics. It's the glue so to speak of a song.

    I think lyrics can be very meaningful. I just don't think they're meant to be read as poetry in the same way a Shakespeare poem is supposed to be read.

    I mean I like The Rolling Stones a lot, but is "Hot Stuff" really all that deep song?

    Hot stuff, yeah
    Hot stuff
    Hot stuff, yeah
    Hot stuff
    Can't get enough
    Hot stuff, yeah
    Hot stuff
    Hot stuff
    Can't get enough
    The music is mighty, mighty fine
    Hot stuff
    Hot stuff
    Can't get enough
    Hot stuff
    Can't get enough
    Hot stuff
    Can't get enough
    The music is mighty, mighty fine
    Hot stuff
    Hot stuff
    I can't get enough
    Hot stuff
    Play it rough, yeah
    I can't get enough
    'Cause music is what I want
    To keep my body always moving, yeah
    Shake it up
    Hot stuff
    Every day I need another dose
    I can't stand it when the music stop
    Hot stuff
    Everybody on the dancefloor
    You know what I'm talkin' about
    Music make you forget all your trouble
    Make you kiss and make you tell the whole wide world
    So what
    Hot stuff
    Hot stuff
    Shake it up
    Shake it up
    I wanna tell all my friends in London
    There ain't nothin' wrong with you
    But you better shape up, yeah
    Shake it up
    You're hot stuff
    All the people in New York City
    I know you are goin' broke
    But I know you're tough, yeah
    You're hot stuff
    Hot stuff
    To everybody in Jamaica
    That is workin' in the sun
    You're hot
    You're hot stuff
    Shake it up
    Shake it up
    You're hot stuff
    Hot stuff
    Play it rough
    Hot stuff
    Shake it up
    Hot stuff
    And what about songs that fulfill part of the thematic work through solos when there isn't any lyrics being song, such as the solo guitar work in Metallica's Ride the Lightning, which imitates lightning coursing through someone's body (at 3:43, although the solo starts earlier than that, I consider that the "lightning coursing through a body" part).

    Rarely do lyrics reach the depth of any of Shakespeare's poetry by themselves. Looking at the variety of lyrics posted here in this thread hasn't changed my mind at all on that point. However, I think lyrics can be meaningful. I'm certainly not calling them meaningless and vapid. I thought the U2 lyrics that I posted were meaningful.
    "You understand well enough what slavery is, but freedom you have never experienced, so you do not know if it tastes sweet or bitter. If you ever did come to experience it, you would advise us to fight for it not with spears only, but with axes too." - Herodotus

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