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Thread: The Manufacture of Mozart

  1. #466
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    Only honesty....

    ...and goldman sucks!

    Moral standards are inversely proportional to "quality of life", Robert, it's a law of nature, (and a democratic law at that), as such you can still afford to be a romantic.

    In theory, all subjects are open but, as you might have noticed, there are no openminded people anymore!

    You have exhibited throughout a remarkable eagerness to draw your prepackaged conclusions and I simply don't believe you can become Cocchi, live his life, see his world with his eyes to then, only then, comment on what he did wrong or not.

    Personaly I don't condemn him (the philosophe-politician in him) for anything other than his theory on "public happiness" and how to attain it via a republic where all "equal born" would enjoy "equal rights".

    Well, they are not, they do not and, moreover, they should not:

    In an ideal state, less blessed people should enjoy more rights (be treated far more leniently) than "leaders".

    That's all!

    Cheers!

    Quote Originally Posted by Musicology View Post
    LOL ! The subject is open. The locks rusted two centuries ago, and there is nothing left except honesty.

    And a few red faces !
    Last edited by yanni; 02-18-2010 at 03:51 PM.

  2. #467
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    The truth is that truth is truth. And what we see in its place are hidden, elitist, unaccountable, corporate, occultic, counterfeits. Whose dogmas are forced on the unsuspecting fools who believe them. Fortunately, that stuff belongs to an age that is irrelevant.

    As for 'pre-packaged' conclusions, I was for over 15 years educated to believe the very opposite to what I now know about Mozart. I arrived at my understanding only by detailed study of the subject. That's the very opposite of 'pre-packaged conclusions'. Isn't it ? Indeed, the pre-packaged conclusions of the music industry on this subject are almost laughable. They hide away and have nothing to say. Theirs is a mantra that is never cross-examined. As anyone can see. Just like the icons we find on Easter Island. Which are cleaned, polished up for tourists, and which keep the industry going. Dumbing down the world in the process.

    Well, even Mozart deserves to be criticised. Like every icon of our civilization. The laughter starts when we discover the 'experts' are on the golf course, or hidden in their lodges.

    I really can't write too much at this moment. I'm queing up to hear the latest corporate news from the international oligarchical news channels. And their corporate sponsors. So that I can stay 'well informed', you understand ?

    Quote Originally Posted by yanni View Post
    ...and goldman sucks!

    Moral standards are inversely proportional to "quality of life", Robert, it's a law of nature, (and a democratic law at that), as such you can still afford to be a romantic.

    In theory, all subjects are open but, as you might have noticed, there are no openminded people anymore!

    You have exhibited throughout a remarkable eagerness to draw your prepackaged conclusions and I simply don't believe you can become Cocchi, live his life, see his world with his eyes to then, only then, comment on what he did wrong or not.

    Personaly I don't condemn him (the philosophe-politician in him) for anything other than his theory on "public happiness" and how to attain it via a republic where all "equal born" would enjoy "equal rights".

    Well, they are not, they do not and, moreover, they should not:

    In an ideal state, less blessed people should enjoy more rights (be treated far more leniently) than "leaders".

    That's all!

    Cheers!

  3. #468
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    State promoted art, music included, will always work for the interests of the establishment, Robert, musicians and experts to be bought a dime a dozen.

    Criticize Mozart for what exactly? Following orders?

    As for the media, look at them positively, as a means to discover the masochist in you!


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    'This music that students can learn from, like religion, is an evidence of a better world. But every trace of it has to be hidden, by design, by the shows and diversions of the buffoons and their managers. Does that suprise you ? Since commerce, buffoonery, their own status, the praises of the spectacularists and those of short-lived fashion, and the absent-mindedness of their own professors, become of course the institution they know and love the most, and it is all they can ever achieve and hope to achieve. And see the labour they spend in their sophistry ! You must not be surprised statue makers are busy these days in Vienna - and that ignorance reigns supreme. Remind them, if you dare, that a Bach lived and had no passport there. You may upset their lunch with the fact of it. And leave them to their stories. To their expertise. Love laughter. And tolerate, always tolerate, the fool. Since, we are those saved fools.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcZhT...eature=related

    (J.N. Forkel - Founder of the Science of Musicology - Public Lecture - Gottingen, Germany )


    Quote Originally Posted by yanni View Post
    State promoted art, music included, will always work for the interests of the establishment, Robert, musicians and experts to be bought a dime a dozen.

    Criticize Mozart for what exactly? Following orders?

    As for the media, look at them positively, as a means to discover the masochist in you!

    Last edited by Musicology; 02-19-2010 at 07:42 AM.

  5. #470
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    Noticed today on the internet. At the bottom of the page is reference to 'The Manufacture of Mozart' in a post made by a Professor of Music in Venice. Interesting, Yanni, yes ?

    http://66.102.9.132/search?q=cache:-...&ct=clnk&gl=uk

  6. #471
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    Thumbs down Anglo-Sachsen Musik!

    Assuming these wise words of Forkel's date post 1774 and aware by now that he was not just anti-'buffoons and their managers' but also somewhat(playing it safe) critical of Gluck's reform opera, coming then on stage, I have this to say:

    He was about 20 years behind, in musical as well as political developments, not ready then to deviate from church music, but a pioneer promoter of future german "ethnic" music (as per title) nevertheless.

    His opinion on "Rousseau-Gluck-Cocchi etc" is irrelevant, as a musician he was insignificant and the title "first musicologist" totaly unfounded: He had neither the depth nor the knowledge!

    If I were a musicologist, Robert, I would research similarities between music dictionaries by Rousseau and Koch.

    Finaly: All churches wanted to keep exclusive control of music (and musicians) well aware of its value as a means of persuasion and, as such, a certain envy against those that used it for their own purposes (commerce, Forkel notices) is well understood and to be excused.....

    ...for Forkel!

    You are biased, Robert, by later turn of events and "today".

    But the circumstances were different then!




    Quote Originally Posted by Musicology View Post
    'This music that students can learn from, like religion, is an evidence of a better world. But every trace of it has to be hidden, by design, by the shows and diversions of the buffoons and their managers. Does that suprise you ? Since commerce, buffoonery, their own status, the praises of the spectacularists and those of short-lived fashion, and the absent-mindedness of their own professors, become of course the institution they know and love the most, and it is all they can ever achieve and hope to achieve. And see the labour they spend in their sophistry ! You must not be surprised statue makers are busy these days in Vienna - and that ignorance reigns supreme. Remind them, if you dare, that a Bach lived and had no passport there. You may upset their lunch with the fact of it. And leave them to their stories. To their expertise. Love laughter. And tolerate, always tolerate, the fool. Since, we are those saved fools.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcZhT...eature=related

    (J.N. Forkel - Founder of the Science of Musicology - Public Lecture - Gottingen, Germany )

  7. #472
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    Yanni,

    First of all, here is the Wikipedia article on Johann Forkel -

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Nikolaus_Forkel


    You will note his musical association with the University of Gottingen for close to half a century. He saw it all. His publications are famous for their detail and for their learning. He gave public lectures. And he was increasingly despised by the managers and impresarios of the music industry.

    It was Forkel who (as already said) introduced the accomplishments of Bach to a startled world. Who taught that the greatest music is that which can be used for the teaching of students. And if you will notice carefully his early articles on Bach are not (as you claim) refering to church music at all. Forkel knew perfectly well the prejudices and absurdities of his age. He knew the bigotry which had kept musicians ignorant of the subject. On Bach he focused on the marvellous instrumental music, the sonatas, the partitas, and other secular music such as his concertos. Plus the major works such as the 48 Preludes and Fugues, the 'Art of Fugue' etc. How much more fair could he be ?

    The 'establishment' (to their shame) already knew of Bach's formidable musical legacy. In fact, down in Italy it's recorded that teachers such as Padre Martini kept a copy of Bach's 48 Preludes and Fugues on their desk. But you will search in vain for any reference to J.S. Bach during his whole lifetime in Vienna or in Italy, Bohemia, France or even England. Catholic Europe pretended he did not exist. End of story. And, anyway, they wanted to invent something else. Their own theoretical models. And, by the late 18th century there were charlatans who taught that they could make better arrangements of Bach's own music (complete with their own new harmonies) that were supposedly superior to those of Bach himself. Men such as the buffoon theorist, Abbe Vogler, for example. (A man who also attacked Forkel). Accusing him (as you do) of Bach being 'old fashioned'. When, today, if you were to ask, say, a jazz musician whose music has been the greatest influence on them from classical music they will invariably tell you it's JS Bach. The 19th century saw the teaching of harmony enter into a chaotic state. With fugue itself ignored. Or parodied at best. In Vienna others marvelled at it, and even bought copies of it. But they never performed it publicly. Because, of course, they had their heroes. And the music industry had 'modern' things to give the public in its place. The resistance against Bach (and others of the late baroque period) was relentless. The secularisation was, of course, the emerging industry itself. Which still found no place for this amazing music of the late baroque.

    So, no. Let's be honest about this. People don't exist if they aren't part of the 'system'. And others worked for peanuts whose names are today virtually ignored. That's the reality.

    It would be useless, of course, to replace the idol of Mozart with one of Bach. And that has never happened. Still, the lesson is clear. The industry suffers from 'amnesia' and Bach is amongst the greatest examples. All this taking place within a Holy Roman Empire where, only a few decades before the teaching in most schools was in Latin, with students unable to speak their own language there, and no history taught at all. A recipe for ignorance. Only matched by us today.

  8. #473
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    Elementary logic lessons.

    In my opinion, Robert, following my revelations on Cocchi and his aliases, history and music scholars, having hopefully survived falling of their podiums , should now head straight for the woods and stay there forever.

    I don't give a cent (sic) on what Forkel says or what Wikipedia says or what the early anglosaxon nationalistic attempts by Hanover and the famous(!) University of Goettingen (Founded 1737 by George II as compared to Pragues Karl University founded 1348) "scholars" claimed then, and still claim, as "their music, musicians and musicoloy".

    Further to what I wrote in previous, I suggest you read Daniel Heartz (Words on Music) if you really wish to concentrate on Forkel's 1774 blah-blahs but I don't really see the reason:

    It was you afterall who, a while back in this thread, were talking of the "italian" origins of all european music (even if "musicology" is a greek word and Rousseau's definition of "fuga"-escape-in his dictionary confirms it)!

    As for Bach, his "formidable legacy" and the music establishement (then and now):

    Add to your future tentative "musicology research themas" J.C.Bach, the London Bach, and his special relationship to Baron Bache or Bagge (and his patron Cocchi).

    Preferably after succesfully digesting the rest of my story, in a year or two, and before heading for the woods yourself.

    BTW:

    Louis XV died May 10th, 1774.

    Shortly before Gluck had his Iphigenie premiering in Paris, April 19th 1774, Gossec staged his tragedie lyrique "Sabinus" at Versailles, December the 4th, 1773 to then repeat it early 74 in the Paris Music Academy to then cooperate "somehow" with Gluck, as the story reads currently in "New" France: Avec lui, Gossec forme le projet d'utiliser ce livret dιlaissι pour thθme de son premier opιra :Sabinus.
    http://philidor.cmbv.fr/jlbweb/jlbWe...92.pdf&ext=pdf (notice name of site) and http://www.musicologie.org/Biographies/g/gossec.htm (valid only as far his works are concerned. His biographic data are fake!)

    Cheers!

    (you'll find many french musicologists to keep you company in the "Bois" Robert)



    Quote Originally Posted by Musicology View Post
    Yanni,

    First of all, here is the Wikipedia article on Johann Forkel -

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Nikolaus_Forkel


    You will note his musical association with the University of Gottingen for close to half a century. He saw it all. His publications are famous for their detail and for their learning. He gave public lectures. And he was increasingly despised by the managers and impresarios of the music industry.

    It was Forkel who (as already said) introduced the accomplishments of Bach to a startled world. Who taught that the greatest music is that which can be used for the teaching of students. And if you will notice carefully his early articles on Bach are not (as you claim) refering to church music at all. Forkel knew perfectly well the prejudices and absurdities of his age. He knew the bigotry which had kept musicians ignorant of the subject. On Bach he focused on the marvellous instrumental music, the sonatas, the partitas, and other secular music such as his concertos. Plus the major works such as the 48 Preludes and Fugues, the 'Art of Fugue' etc. How much more fair could he be ?

    The 'establishment' (to their shame) already knew of Bach's formidable musical legacy. In fact, down in Italy it's recorded that teachers such as Padre Martini kept a copy of Bach's 48 Preludes and Fugues on their desk. But you will search in vain for any reference to J.S. Bach during his whole lifetime in Vienna or in Italy, Bohemia, France or even England. Catholic Europe pretended he did not exist. End of story. And, anyway, they wanted to invent something else. Their own theoretical models. And, by the late 18th century there were charlatans who taught that they could make better arrangements of Bach's own music (complete with their own new harmonies) that were supposedly superior to those of Bach himself. Men such as the buffoon theorist, Abbe Vogler, for example. (A man who also attacked Forkel). Accusing him (as you do) of Bach being 'old fashioned'. When, today, if you were to ask, say, a jazz musician whose music has been the greatest influence on them from classical music they will invariably tell you it's JS Bach. The 19th century saw the teaching of harmony enter into a chaotic state. With fugue itself ignored. Or parodied at best. In Vienna others marvelled at it, and even bought copies of it. But they never performed it publicly. Because, of course, they had their heroes. And the music industry had 'modern' things to give the public in its place. The resistance against Bach (and others of the late baroque period) was relentless. The secularisation was, of course, the emerging industry itself. Which still found no place for this amazing music of the late baroque.

    So, no. Let's be honest about this. People don't exist if they aren't part of the 'system'. And others worked for peanuts whose names are today virtually ignored. That's the reality.

    It would be useless, of course, to replace the idol of Mozart with one of Bach. And that has never happened. Still, the lesson is clear. The industry suffers from 'amnesia' and Bach is amongst the greatest examples. All this taking place within a Holy Roman Empire where, only a few decades before the teaching in most schools was in Latin, with students unable to speak their own language there, and no history taught at all. A recipe for ignorance. Only matched by us today.
    Last edited by yanni; 02-20-2010 at 06:52 AM.

  9. #474
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    Yanni,

    Your 'revelations' on Cocchi and his aliases are, in my view, not your strongest arguments. They are the equivalent of carefully peeling an onion only to find another skin. And to remove it only to find another. But, on the other hand, the fact you are focusing on Cocchi is very, very useful. He is, according to you, on some vague mission in life to use lots of aliases for the French government. Although you have not specified his mission. And he is, according to you, a part time musical genius. Plus a diplomat. You also argue that musicians are ten a penny. My opinion may not be worth much but it's this - children do not write symphonies, operas and piano concertos. Nor do they fly jumbo jets across the Atlantic or design computers. And, similarly, nor do French diplomats write operas. Music, Janni, is not making hamburgers.

    And may I gently correct you ? I didn't say 'all music came from Italy'. In fact, what first came from Italy are the forms of music such as concertos, symphonies, sonatas, quartets etc. Plus, of course, operas etc. The immense importance of Italy for these things is plain fact. To this day Italian terms are used on musical scores. And it is a plain fact Italian musicians (and Kapellmeisters) literally dominated the early and middle 18th century musical scene in Austria and Germany. Plus of course Bohemians.

    You mention J.C. Bach and his special relationship to Baron Bache/Bagge in London. Plus of course C.P.E. Bach. Yes, now THAT is a fascinating subject, for sure ! And what of J.C. Bach's relationship to the British monarchy ? (To ask how the son of one of the most talented composers who ever lived, a Protestant composer, had several sons who converted to Roman Catholicism - this alone is a very, very interesting question). And it's not as simply answered as it may first seem. There IS a missing aspect of that subject and I'm convinced it comes from the British Empire. Or, to be more accurate, the East India Company. An Empire who (because of the Venetian/British link) grew to have huge power and influence in Germany. So this 'conversion' of the Bach sons after J.S. Bach's death was seen by them as siding with the British, rather than a religious change of view, as such. To them, they were now succeeding in their careers under British influence instead of dogmatic Catholicism. Which may well explain the role of Hamburg in C.P.E. Bach's life and career (a place where there was a massive East India Company estate of the British).

    The many falsehoods associated with 18th century music are well known. Of all the centuries the 18th century is the most riddled with dubious musical attributions, for a start. But I think (and am sure) Cocchi was part of a musical network and that we are missing the point if we make him (or Gluck, or Rousseau, or anyone else) the solution. There were in fact a whole network of composers. One group of which manufactured certain reputations. Musically. With the collusion of aristocrats, patrons, managers, publishers, occultists, fraternity members etc. Amongst whose products was the career of Mozart. And by no means alone. Josef Haydn too. And, even, to an as yet unresearched degree, Ludwig van Beethoven.

    You are again right Paris is vitally important in those decades. This particular jigsaw puzzle (of Mozart) spanned numerous countries. And it took time.

    But Yanni, I never want to think you have nothing good to share. I have found the opposite. Much of what you say is useful. Some of it is very useful. But not all. I suggest you carefully consider the Venetian/British Empire aspect (i.e. that of the fraternities and the role of them especially within areas outside of the Holy Roman Empire) as being the missing link in all of this. Certainly in the case of Mozart. And that means, yes, Paris and England are hugely important. Without Paris, I believe, we would not have had the earliest publications of many of 'Mozart's' works. Indeed, even on the eve of the French Revolution, the 'factory' in Paris was very occupied with 'Mozart'.

    Regards
    Last edited by Musicology; 02-20-2010 at 06:46 AM.

  10. #475
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  11. #476
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    This link does not work !


  12. #477
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    It works fine with me.

    Try http://www.walnet.org/csis/news/worl...er-030119.html (concerning working girls only, nothing to do with musicology etc)


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    Ah, yes. And why, Janni, are the oldest professions also those of deception ?

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    Why focus on the trade of musicology, Robert, and not aim for something higher?

    My choice early in life was either to be a piano-player in a whorehouse or a politician. And to tell the truth, there's hardly any difference. Harry S. Truman

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    Yanni,

    I cannot write on tennis, brain surgery or electronics. Since I've little knowledge of any of those things.

    I focus on musicology (or, rather, the corporate forgery which today speaks in its name) because control of the culture (and also of the media, politics, banking, commerce etc) have always been hugely important parts of what we are told to believe about ourselves. And where more clearly than in music ? But this manipulation of music and musical history is of course really a form of control. Whose patrons have always managed its progress through manufacturing and controlling what is widely revered and believed on the subject. The extent to which our culture is manipulated and even manufactured in this way by these virtually unknown patrons and propagandists of the past is truly massive. In fact, most wars rely on a manipulated form of culture. And always has done. The role within every society of art and music in controllable ways is massive. And these icons of civilization sustain entire civilizations. They are the stuff of our 'education'. Since the chief patrons of approved art and culture were/are of course none other than these same elites of civilization.

    We of the west are taught to value individualism above almost anything else and we like to believe our cultural heroes were 'individuals'. In fact, they were, almost without exception, stooges of the system that had patronised and controlled them in the first place. 'That's the way it goes in the industry', right ? Sometimes absurdly so. The end result is that a cultural pantheon is manufactured and sustained. Whose statues are testimony to these cultural 'gods of the state', in fact. Whose biographical and artistic merits are never questioned or cross-examined in detail. In fact, the lack of criticism of these giants of our culture is as clear as their dominance of our 'education'. So that spurious biographies enter our textbooks, as fact. And our 'education' never extends to questioning how those icons which now dominate our musical landscape were first constructed nor ever questioning their massive role within our 'education'. Examples in other areas are also plain. They range from NASA moon landings, corporate 'news', the dominant role of Darwinism within biology and 'science', the 'genius' of Mozart, etc. etc. The heroism of this handful of revered individuals emphasises their 'genius' but never, of course, tells the story of their patrons, their role in the propaganda to which we are accustomed, nor, of course, any appreciation of the lives, careers and achievements of countless others.

    We invite cultural barbarianism by corporate, commercialised nonsense. We are, in many respects, little more educated and informed than the barbarians and pagans. Since the criticism that is vital in, say, musicology, or the 'history of music' does not exist and has hardly existed since the time of Forkel. It is not welcomed. And, shortly after its birth this science of musicology (the real science, that is) was blatantly hijacked by the commercial music industry, its managers and by vested interests. So within decades, a pseudo-musicology obtained control. By corporate, commercial ways. Through the emerging 'music industry', of course. Thus 'musicology' is today limited to highly funded corporate products on a handful of these icons whose 'experts' cannot and will not be accountable for what they teach.

    It is of course childish nonsense. But the credit card of 'genius' is used whenever convention is questioned. And the managers of this nonsense laugh all the way to the bank.

    Quote Originally Posted by yanni View Post
    Why focus on the trade of musicology, Robert, and not aim for something higher?

    My choice early in life was either to be a piano-player in a whorehouse or a politician. And to tell the truth, there's hardly any difference. Harry S. Truman
    Last edited by Musicology; 02-20-2010 at 08:41 AM.

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