Christmas Reading '09: The Turn of the Screw

[kasie]

.....In this regard I am most interested in Mrs Grose. Does she see the ghosts? Either way, does she believe in them, is she thoroughly superstitious, or is she just kindly humouring the governess? Why is Mrs Grose so guarded about the past and, in particular, the history of Quint, Jessel and the Master? Is she hiding something sinister as the governess suggests, or simply declining to gossip out of respect for the privacy and reputation of others......

I've been wondering about Mrs Grose for some time and meaning to post some similar thoughts, Gladys. I think she is one of the least reliable characters in the story, along with the uncle. It is Mrs Grose who immediately identifies the apparition as Quint, with no prompting from anyone else: I think she is fully aware of what has been happening and is much relieved that the governess has arrived to shoulder the burden of responsibilty. Her later reluctance to confirm the governess' experiences is an indication of her reluctance to become involved again in events which have previously thoroughly frightened and mystified her. Likewise, I think the uncle is fully aware of what has been going on and by stressing to the governess that he does not wish to be involved, is denying any responsibility for the happenings in his own house. It was he, after all, who left the children to the care of Quint and Miss Jessel; Quint had been in his employ for some time - surely he knew the man's character? I think he feels guilt over how events developed - maybe he had come under Quint's malign influence himself and banished the man to the country to escape from him, only to realise too late the peril in which he had placed his wards.

Now, I have offered no textual backup for this interpretation! But James (William) proposed that events should be interpreted by intuitive means rather than logical deduction, so I'm following Jamesian lines of analysis - and was brother Henry doing the same thing?

Thanks for your interpretation of the line from the end of the story, Jozanny, but I'm still not sure how it should be read - it's the final ambiguity.

[LitNetIsGreat]

I think the uncle is fully aware of what has been going on and by stressing to the governess that he does not wish to be involved, is denying any responsibility for the happenings in his own house. It was he, after all, who left the children to the care of Quint and Miss Jessel; Quint had been in his employ for some time - surely he knew the man's character? I think he feels guilt over how events developed - maybe he had come under Quint's malign influence himself and banished the man to the country to escape from him, only to realise too late the peril in which he had placed his wards.

I don't go along with this reading personally. Mrs Grose says that the master didn't know what he was like, although he was "his" man. I think he just wants to be left alone because he doesn't really have any affection for the children and just wants to carry out his sort of bachelor lifestyle.

As for Mrs Grose being unreliable, possibly, but we of course she her through the governess's eyes, who for me is utterly unreliable being full of wild romantic notions and the overblown image of her self-importance - so much so that it makes you wonder that any of us believes a word she says!

I've nearly re-read this story again and if anything, I am more convinced that we are dealing with visions from a deluded mind and not the ghosts of Quint and Jessel. I'll post something else tomorrow on it if I can.

[Virgil]

There are a few stock characteristics to Mrs. Grose. First she's Scottish, which in the perception of the Victorians was an unimaginative person, hard working, deligent, and down to earth. Second, she's older, uneducated, perhaps proned to superstition, but practical. She's the perferct contrast to the Governess.

[LitNetIsGreat]

I said earlier that I would be quite prepared to accept various readings on this text, something along the lines of that I could get out of bed next week and support an entirely different reading. Well, having re-read this I am now hardened in my belief in my interpretation that we are dealing with a deluded, almost certainly repressed, individual who sees the visions as a result of that repression. Even if she is not repressed (which I think she is) she is in my mind clearly deluded and not to be believed, and I can't seriously support any reading that argues for the ghosts as real visitants. Put it this way, if I was on a jury I wouldn't believe her story one bit; I'd send her to a madhouse!

I think in terms of Freud we could use some elements to possibly detail how and why, she has visions, but overall I think that she hangs herself as mentally unstable without these regardless. I've made quite a few notes against the governess, but I haven't got time to write them all out!

In terms of Freud, I think that there is a case for sublimation, transference of some sort and Oedipal feeling towards that of Miles, though, as I say I think it stands perfectly well without Freud that these images are part of her twisted imagination regardless of how we classify them.

Virgil, do you still support a reading alongside that of the ghosts, I know you said you were re-reading it, or has the second read changed your mind a little? I just can’t imagine a strong case to be made for the ghosts as real, outside of minor possibilities.

[Gladys]

...she is in my mind clearly deluded and not to be believed, and I can't seriously support any reading that argues for the ghosts as real visitants.

Supposing the ghosts are fantasy, how are we to explain the following loose ends?

1. The sudden and mysterious departure and death of the former governess, Miss Jessel.
   
   
2. The significance of Quint's untimely death.
   
   
3. The unsavoury relationship that had existed between Quint and Jessel, and their negative influence on the two children.
   
   
4. The reasons for Miles expulsion from school and his impeccable behaviour on returning home.

I've been wondering about Mrs Grose for some time and meaning to post some similar thoughts, Gladys. I think she is one of the least reliable characters in the story, along with the uncle.

Let's suppose that Scottish Mrs Grose, and eventually the children, are as deluded as the governess. All mystery and ambiguity are resolved, and we are dealing with mass hysteria, not merely female hysteria. In this case, the conspiracy theories, delusions and exaggerations of Mrs Grose infect our impressionable young governess and her two wards.

Mrs Grose is to blame!

[kasie]

...... Put it this way, if I was on a jury I wouldn't believe her story one bit; I'd send her to a madhouse!.....

But didn't you say you had watched the Beeb's version over Christmas, Neely? I have it recorded to watch after these discussions are over as I don't want a visual interpretation to influence me too much but I caught the last few minutes of the live transmission and couldn't quite work out what was happening. I take it the governess (Oh, I wish she had a name!) was being driven off to the local Asylum, though I did at first think she was being taken to be executed, with the Scripture-reading cleric following the carriage. This would be in your line with your interpretation of her being insane - but how do you interpret that final (non-Jamesian) scene of Flora with the new governess?

Gladys: I wouldn't go quite that far - I just said she was unreliable.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Supposing the ghosts are fantasy, how are we to explain the following loose ends?

1. The sudden and mysterious departure and death of the former governess, Miss Jessel.

2. The significance of Quint's untimely death.

3. The unsavoury relationship that had existed between Quint and Jessel, and their negative influence on the two children.

4. The reasons for Miles expulsion from school and his impeccable behaviour on returning home.

Yes there are some interesting points, but I don't really see how they connect to the visions versus ghosts debate (even if that is an over simplification of the "debate"). We take a lot for granted because I see the governess as someone who is quick to run with an idea and "reads into" things that are and aren't there. (See below). So for example these points are only significant because the governess runs with the idea of them as important. For me, these two people died young and that's it. Early death would not have been unusual at this time.

But didn't you say you had watched the Beeb's version over Christmas, Neely? I have it recorded to watch after these discussions are over as I don't want a visual interpretation to influence me too much but I caught the last few minutes of the live transmission and couldn't quite work out what was happening. I take it the governess (Oh, I wish she had a name!) was being driven off to the local Asylum, though I did at first think she was being taken to be executed, with the Scripture-reading cleric following the carriage. This would be in your line with your interpretation of her being insane - but how do you interpret that final (non-Jamesian) scene of Flora with the new governess?

I'll not spoil the BBC version for you so I won't say on that point - get back to me when you have seen it though and tell me what you thought. As you expect from TV adaptations though they take the liberty at times, but overall it is a good production.

Do you mean the scene when Flora reacts strongly against the governess? Actually that fits into my reading of the governess as a deluded individual from whom any sane person would want to flee, also covered below.

Here is a rough list of some of my main points against the governess in rough note form (please forgive the messiness of it): (And the high threat of typos.)

1 She constantly “reads into” what other people are saying or thinking and then puts her interpretation on that. She is being manipulative, whether she is aware of it or not. She’s just not to be trusted.

I only sat there on my tomb and read into what my little friend has said to me the fullness of its meaning p81.

“But none the less, between Miles and me, it’s now all out.”
“All out?” My companion stared. “But what, Miss?”
“Everything. It doesn’t matter I’ve made up my mind.” p85.

“He was looking for someone else , you say – someone who was not you?”
“He was looking for little Miles.” A portentous clearness now possessed me. “That’s whom he was looking for.”
“But how do you know?”

“I know, I know, I know” My exaltation grew. “And you know, my dear!”

“Flora saw!”
... “She has told you so?”
“Not a word – that’s the horror”. P45.

“...if I had “made it up”, I came to be able to give, of each of the persons appearing to me, a picture disclosing, to the last detail, their special marks” p50. (Because you so manipulate Mrs Grose.)

I just can't trust the governess, she does this throughout.

2 She has lived a sheltered life and is almost certainly repressed in some way.

I learnt something, at first certainly – that had not been one of the teachings of my small, smothered life; learnt to be amused, and even amusing, and not to think for the morrow. It was the first time, in a manner, that I had known space and air and freedom, all the music of summer and all the mystery of nature. P25

Eccentric nature of my father. P72.

3 Her head is full of romance literature and she constantly imagines that she is playing the part in some big romance. She is very unstable and dreamlike.

“Well, that, I think, is what I came for – to be carried away. I’m afraid, however.” I remember feeling the impulse to add, “I’m rather easily carried away”. P17.

Was there a “secret” at Bly – a mystery of Udolpho or an insane, an unmentionable relative kept in unsuspected confinement? (Of course the reference to Jane Eyre is also apt as the governess in that story married the master!) p28.

I call it a revolution because I now see how, with the word he spoke, the curtain rose on the last act of my dreadful drama and the catastrophe was precipitated. P77.

The book I had in my hand was Fieldings’s Amelia; also that I was wholly awake. I recall further both a general conviction that it was horribly late and particular objection to looking at my watch. P58. (As with previous encounters her visions come after reading or dreaming.)

4 She is highly passionate, this is seen in the overflowing of emotion towards the children. Perhaps this is also part of the escape of her repressed and idealised vision of life?

With a great childish light that seemed to offer it as a mere result of the affection she had conceived for my person, which had rendered necessary that she should follow me. I needed nothing more than this to feel the full force of Mrs Grose’s comparison, and, catching my pupil in my arms, covered her with kisses in which there was a sob of atonement. P21.

“Oh handsome – very, very,” I insisted “wonderfully, handsome. But infamous”. P48.

“... an imperturbable little prodigy of delightful, loveable goodness”. P52.

5 She suffers from a lack of sleep, which by itself is enough to cause visions! On the two days she had no sleep at all and the first hints of visions (strange noises etc) came at this time. It was two weeks later that she saw the first vision of Quint, so we can assume that she slept better after that, but we can be relatively certain from this evidence that her excitability results in poor sleep, which only makes the potential for greater visions more likely.

But it was a comfort that there could be no uneasiness in a connexion with anything so beatific as the radiant image of my little girl, the vision of whose angelic beauty had probably more than anything else to do with the restlessness that, before morning, made me several times rise and wander about my room. P. 16.

I had better have let it wait till morning, for it gave me a second sleepless night. P19.

6 She is full of her own self-importance that goes beyond her position.

I was strangely at the helm! P18.

I dare say I fancied myself, in short, a remarkable young woman and took comfort in the faith that this would more publicly appear. P26.

7 She works hard and only has one hour a day to herself. This is also the point when she saw the first two visions/ghosts I don’t take it as coincidence that the one time of day that she can relax her mind is when the visions first appear.

In the first weeks the days were long; they often, at their finest, gave me what I used to call my own hour.

“When was it on the tower?”
“About the middle of the month . At the same hour”. P35.

8 She is in love with the master or, more importantly perhaps, has been in love with the idea of someone of that status.

[On Quint] He remained there a few seconds – long enough to convince me he also saw and recognised; but it was as if I had been looking at him for years and had known him always. P32.

“I was carried away in London!”...
“Well, Miss, you’re not the first – and you won’t be the last”. P17.

[She refuses to contact the master even when events go too far] They were too beautiful to be posted; I kept them myself; I have them all to this hour. P76.

My letter, sealed and directed, was still in my pocket. P91.

9 She actually says that the visions are in her head!

What arrested me on the spot – and with a shock much greater than any vision had allowed for – was that sense that my imagination had, in a flash, turned real. He did stand there! P26.

Yet it was not at such an elevation that the figure I had so often invoked seemed most in place. P26.

...and the figure that faced me – a few more seconds assured me – a little anyone else I know as it was the image that had been in my mind. I had not seen it in Harley Street – I had not seen it anywhere. P27.

10 Mrs Grose does not see the visions.

Miss! Where on earth do you see anything? P100.

“I took it from her, by the lake that, just then and there at least, there was nobody.” Italics in was. P104.

11Flora does not see the visions (or at least she doesn’t admit to it).

I see nobody. I see nothing. I never have. I think you’re cruel and I don’t like you. P101.

She persists in denying to you that she saw, or has ever seen, anything? P103.

12 Miles does not see them either, or doesn’t admit to it, I can't find evidence at the moment, but I have noted it somewhere.

13 She ruthlessly refuses to contact the master, even when it goes way too far, as covered above in letters.

Freudian elements that may support the visions as actual visions (she also mentions repression, “she would repress every betrayal” p99.):

14 The language used to describe Quint is heavily sexual, more so than at any other time in the whole story. This shows her sexual repression which is perhaps partly to answer for her visions.

“Tower” “measure” “loomed” “grandeur” p26. “so intimately concerned” p29. He’s tall, active and erect. P36, etc.

15 Sublimation is perhaps present in her self-imposed role as protector of the children. Here we could argue that her repression is being released in this form.

I was there to protect and defend the little creatures. P42.

[Well no, you are there to teach].

I was in these days literally able to find a joy in the extraordinary flight of heroism the occasion demanded of me. P42.

They had never, I think, wanted to do so many things for their poor protectress. P56.

They were at this period extravagantly and preternaturally fond of me. P56.

16 Transference could be ascribed to the vision of Quint (she could even see herself as Jessel).

[On Jessel with Quint] “it must have been also what she wished!” (italics on she) p49.

He gives me a sort of sense of looking like an actor. P36 (Actors of course playing the part of someone else.)

17 Oedipal feeling perhaps spill over into her affection towards Miles.

He bent forward and kissed me. It was practically the end of everything. I met his kiss and I had to make, while I folded him for a minute in my arms, the most stupendous effort not to cry. P67.

He “had” me indeed, and in a cleft stick; for who would ever absolve me, who would consent that I should go unhung, if, by the faintest tremor of an overture, I were the first to introduce into our perfect intercourse an element so dire? P67.

My face was close to his, and he let me kiss him simply taking it with indulgent good humour. “well, old lady?” p90.

We sat there in absolute stillness; yet he wanted, I felt, to be with me. P102

.

Get off with his sister as soon as possible and leave me with him alone. P105.

My voice trembled so that I felt it impossible to suppress the shake.
“Don’t you remember how I told you, when I came and sat on your bed the night of the storm, that there was nothing in the world I wouldn’t do for you?” p114.

The idea of grossness and guilt on a small helpless creature who had been for me a revelation of the possibilities of beautiful intercourse. P115.

My sternness was all for his judge, his executioner...p120.

As I say, this is just a list of notes, but I think you can see my point (hopefully) against the governess's position, some of them overlap and support each other, the overall point being that I can find little in support of the ghosts as real figures, at least alongside the points above. There are a couple of points in favour of the ghosts, such as a mention at the start of another ghost story with affecting two children, and a couple of minor points here and there, but overall for me the governess is clearly deluded, and the "ghosts" are surely visions of some sort.

[Virgil]

Virgil, do you still support a reading alongside that of the ghosts, I know you said you were re-reading it, or has the second read changed your mind a little? I just can’t imagine a strong case to be made for the ghosts as real, outside of minor possibilities.

I just started the other night. Most of my reading gets done on the weekends (unless it's a poem). I did get through the frame part of the story and it seems that Douglas fully believes the ghosts are real, despite acknowledging the Governess being nervous and in love. So far I don't see anything that would suggest that my original reading is incorrect. Those that would claim the ghost is a hallucination still haven't answered why the story is named The Turn of the Screw. Look at this passage from the openning frame:

"I quite agree--in regard to Griffin's ghost, or whatever it was--that its appearing first to the little boy, at so tender an age, adds a particular touch. But it's not the first occurrence of its charming kind that I know to have involved a child. If the child gives the effect another turn of the screw, what do you say to two children--?"

"We say, of course," somebody exclaimed, "that they give two turns! Also that we want to hear about them."

[Gladys]

Yes there are some interesting points, but I don't really see how they connect to the visions versus ghosts debate

Here's the connection. Let's assume the two ghosts are mere visions of the governess - nothing but fantasy. My four questions become critical because they have nothing to do with the governess and her fantasies, yet are fundamental to the story, to the mystery. If the ghosts were real, the four are easily answered! Otherwise the four questions hang disconcertingly in the air at the end.

If the ghosts are fantasy I now blame, as I said before, a neurotic Mrs Grose for starting and fuelling the train of events recounted in the transcript of the governess. This would best explain the respect Douglas has for the old governess, and the prologue narrator for Douglas.

[LitNetIsGreat]

I just started the other night. Most of my reading gets done on the weekends (unless it's a poem). I did get through the frame part of the story and it seems that Douglas fully believes the ghosts are real, despite acknowledging the Governess being nervous and in love. So far I don't see anything that would suggest that my original reading is incorrect. Those that would claim the ghost is a hallucination still haven't answered why the story is named The Turn of the Screw. Look at this passage from the openning frame:

Yes that is one of the points I have got for the ghosts too, there are one or two other little pointers, but overall the evidence against the governess (as I detailed above) is massive.

Here's the connection. Let's assume the two ghosts are mere visions of the governess - nothing but fantasy. My four questions become critical because they have nothing to do with the governess and her fantasies, yet are fundamental to the story, to the mystery. If the ghosts were real, the four are easily answered! Otherwise the four questions hang disconcertingly in the air at the end.

If the ghosts are fantasy I now blame, as I said before, a neurotic Mrs Grose for starting and fuelling the train of events recounted in the transcript of the governess. This would best explain the respect Douglas has for the old governess, and the prologue narrator for Douglas.

I think if anybody is neurotic that title surely has to go to that of the governess! I just think that Mrs Grose is a little easily led, though from that a little unreliable. But anyway, I don't think that they do become loose ends if we take it that the governess has visions. I don't take it as significant that two middle aged people died in the Victorian period, their deaths I think means little.

With Miles being excluded from school, again it is an annoying little mystery why he has been, but I don't think it is fundamental to the story either way.

More apt I think is the massive list against the governess detailed above most of which point directly to the idea of visions from a deluded mind. I mean how do you explain the fact that she actually admits to having visions, the fact that she stuggles sleeping, the fact that she is sexually repressed, and a thousand other things?

No, I can't read a single page of the story (almost) without seeing something against the governess and that is where the truth of the matter surely lies.

[Virgil]

Here's the connection. Let's assume the two ghosts are mere visions of the governess - nothing but fantasy. My four questions become critical because they have nothing to do with the governess and her fantasies, yet are fundamental to the story, to the mystery. If the ghosts were real, the four are easily answered! Otherwise the four questions hang disconcertingly in the air at the end.

If the ghosts are fantasy I now blame, as I said before, a neurotic Mrs Grose for starting and fuelling the train of events recounted in the transcript of the governess. This would best explain the respect Douglas has for the old governess, and the prologue narrator for Douglas.

Very good points Gladys. I'm reserving any judgements until I do my second reading, but it does feel that there are too many unresolved issues if the ghosts are not real.

[Jozanny]

It is interesting that the skeptics and believers seem to divide over the ghosts according to our skepticism or belief; I am about 91% with Neely, but reserve that last 9% precisely because Miles goes from angelically divine to sinister in the course of 30 pages or so--if his expulsion amounted to little more than boys being boys, we aren't really treated to much evidence of that.

[Virgil]

It is interesting that the skeptics and believers seem to divide over the ghosts according to our skepticism or belief; I am about 91% with Neely, but reserve that last 9% precisely because Miles goes from angelically divine to sinister in the course of 30 pages or so--if his expulsion amounted to little more than boys being boys, we aren't really treated to much evidence of that.

Yeah, it's hard to explain Miles if the ghosts aren't real. So you lean to the ghosts aren't real theory? How do you explain the title, The Turn of the Screw?

[Gladys]

I think if anybody is neurotic that title surely has to go to that of the governess! I just think that Mrs Grose is a little easily led, though from that a little unreliable.

Why not call both neurotic; doesn't Mrs Grose feed the fantasies of the governess?

I don't take it as significant that two middle aged people died in the Victorian period, their deaths I think means little.

With Miles being excluded from school, again it is an annoying little mystery why he has been, but I don't think it is fundamental to the story either way.

If so, am I the only one who vainly scanned every page for answers to these mysteries?

[Virgil]

If so, am I the only one who vainly scanned every page for answers to these mysteries?

No, no, Gladys. I'm re-reading. I'm looking for all that now.