Let's Go Vegetarian

[Paulclem]

Thanks Comedian. I think there is room for compromise, as you noted in your earlier post. The veggie question tends to polarize opinion a bit.

[MarkBastable]

The point about the slaughter of your own food is about realising and accepting the consequences of your actions. I think that many people would be uncomfortable with killing their own food, but are happy to let others do it.

Two things here.

First, even as a pretty standard urban consumer, I think that I have sufficient imagination to understand the processes and consequences of eating meat - even without having to actually slaughter a pig. I do realise and I do accept the consequences of my actions. However, if killing an animal is a necessary precursor to eating meat, I'll sign up. I might learn something.

Still, as a strategy adopted by vegetarians in the hope of persuading carnivores not to eat meat, I think the insistence on killing pigs is a shaky one - because human beings are pretty callous when asked to inflict cruelty on a no-blame basis, and I think you might end up with a lot of utterly convinced butchers and a huge pile of pork chops.

But I don't think that the argument about secondary responsibility really applies in any practical way.

You say, "...many people would be uncomfortable with killing their own food, but are happy to let others do it." Which is true. That's how people are. And I can't see anything wrong with that, really. We all square that circle of disengagement from the process.

For instance - I can't think of anyone who doesn't - in one way or another - rely on coal. And digging coal out of the ground is not a pleasant thing to do. It's not merely an uncomfortable job - it's seriously unpleasant and quite dangerous. Yep - the miners get paid - but that's their bargain.

The rest of us get benefit from their suffering. We might not like to think about how coal gets out of the ground, but as we sit in our warm living rooms, we are happy that others do it. And that's the deal all of us make with life. We live with it. We might not like the implications of it - but we understand that's it's a slightly messed up universe.

For me, at least, the suffering of animals is something I can both regret and live with. I'm glad someone else is killing the animals* and I'm happy for them to do it, although I don't want to think about what that means. That's an implicit hypocrisy - but the dichotomy that fuels it isn't argument enough to persuade most carnivores to become vegetarian.


*Incidentally, ask me about my friend the turkey-farmer, and his December schedule. It's not pretty.

[Paulclem]

Two things here.

First, even as a pretty standard urban consumer, I think that I have sufficient imagination to understand the processes and consequences of eating meat - even without having to actually slaughter a pig. I do realise and I do accept the consequences of my actions. However, if killing an animal is a necessary precursor to eating meat, I'll sign up. I might learn something.

Still, as a strategy adopted by vegetarians in the hope of persuading carnivores not to eat meat, I think the insistence on killing pigs is a shaky one - because human beings are pretty callous when asked to inflict cruelty on a no-blame basis, and I think you might end up with a lot of utterly convinced butchers and a huge pile of pork chops.

But I don't think that the argument about secondary responsibility really applies in any practical way.

You say, "...many people would be uncomfortable with killing their own food, but are happy to let others do it." Which is true. That's how people are. And I can't see anything wrong with that, really. We all square that circle of disengagement from the process.

For instance - I can't think of anyone who doesn't - in one way or another - rely on coal. And digging coal out of the ground is not a pleasant thing to do. It's not merely an uncomfortable job - it's seriously unpleasant and quite dangerous. Yep - the miners get paid - but that's their bargain.

The rest of us get benefit from their suffering. We might not like to think about how coal gets out of the ground, but as we sit in our warm living rooms, we are happy that others do it. And that's the deal all of us make with life. We live with it. We might not like the implications of it - but we understand that's it's a slightly messed up universe.

For me, at least, the suffering of animals is something I can both regret and live with. I'm glad someone else is killing the animals* and I'm happy for them to do it, although I don't want to think about what that means. That's an implicit hypocrisy - but the dichotomy that fuels it isn't argument enough to persuade most carnivores to become vegetarian.


*Incidentally, ask me about my friend the turkey-farmer, and his December schedule. It's not pretty.

Hi MarkBastable. I wouldn't presume to know the extent of your imagination, and it wasn't meant that way. My point was to both vegetarians and meat eaters that it has to be a personal choice. I would dispute whether many people do make that choice though. I wasn't referring to your good self in this regard, as you clearly have some experience of the issue. When i was a meat eater, I too made the choice and accepted the consequences of this. Nothing needs to stay the same though.

I would now not use the argument to persuade a meat eater either. I don't think soap box vegetarianism works, in fact I think it is counter productive. It may well harden attitudes.

Being aware of actions though is, I think, a good thing. It is about making informed choice against an upbringing, such as mine, that may well not offer choice or education or insight. Meat and two veg were the norm in my parents house, and they would have been very scornful of vegetarianism. If people choose, then fine. I think they are entitled to their choice. I maintain that it is a moral choice, factoring in the suffering of animals.

I hope you now don't think I was attacking you.

So what about this Turkey farmer? I hve a strong stomach - I used to work in a slaughterhouse.

[MarkBastable]

Don't worry. I didn't feel attacked, or offended. The argument is an intellectual one for me. And for you, I guess. Though admittedly not for the pig.

[LitNetIsGreat]

I find the whole vegetarian debate very interesting. I’m not a vegetarian myself but I have been leaning towards that track for a while. It comes down to not really being able to justifying having a creature killed just so I can have a particular flavour filling for a sandwich! I mean, I like cheese, I like egg, I like a whole manner of things, so how can I justify putting meat in the middle when the others will do just fine?

As it happens I eat meat relatively rarely, but the point is I do still eat meat and why is that? No, I couldn’t kill a creature for the sake of one meal in a day-to-day context. I would find it a little difficult, (I think) it would be a too messy and quite frankly it would be just easier to boil some pasta or whatever.

I suppose it comes down to convenience and lack of choice in certain contexts. Often in restaurants in particular the vegetarian option is all too often a token choice with very little appeal. I usually struggle in these cases to go for the vegetarian option. I suppose the argument is that the more vegetarians there are, the better the choice there will be, market demand and all that, but where does that leave me in the meantime?

I think, however that I will eventually cut out meat altogether, and join the ranks of the vegetarians, I just see myself drifting this way.

[skib]

I find the whole vegetarian debate very interesting. I’m not a vegetarian myself but I have been leaning towards that track for a while. It comes down to not really being able to justifying having a creature killed just so I can have a particular flavour filling for a sandwich! I mean, I like cheese, I like egg, I like a whole manner of things, so how can I justify putting meat in the middle when the others will do just fine?

As it happens I eat meat relatively rarely, but the point is I do still eat meat and why is that? No, I couldn’t kill a creature for the sake of one meal in a day-to-day context. I would find it a little difficult, (I think) it would be a too messy and quite frankly it would be just easier to boil some pasta or whatever.

I suppose it comes down to convenience and lack of choice in certain contexts. Often in restaurants in particular the vegetarian option is all too often a token choice with very little appeal. I usually struggle in these cases to go for the vegetarian option. I suppose the argument is that the more vegetarians there are, the better the choice there will be, market demand and all that, but where does that leave me in the meantime?

I think, however that I will eventually cut out meat altogether, and join the ranks of the vegetarians, I just see myself drifting this way.

Cheese is iffy. It is an animal by product (it doesn't harm the animal in any way) so if your views are strictly for not harming a creature, no biggy. Eggs, definitely. Eggs would eventually grow into chickens. I don't see how that counts as vegetarianism.
Meat is not strictly about taste. If I was more educated in nutrition, I would tell you, but something about amino acids, protein, things like that. For carnivores like myself, taste is a definite plus. But taste isn't the sole reason for consumption.

[Scheherazade]

I think "kill to eat" is a rather weak argument for vegetarianism as I probably would not have many vegetables/fruit or fish either if I had to grow/catch them myself... Somewhat out of laziness, somewhat out of a dislike for serious gardening, I doubt I could/would grow everything I am happily consuming today.

PS: I am not a great meat-consumer but I wouldn't consider myself a vegetarian either.

[billl]

Again, I think the "kill to eat" usually (or, at least, most usefully) occurs in the form of a "Would you..." thought experiment. Laziness or skill aside, gardening would of course be quite different to do or observe being done, for most people. I used to be completely oblivious to how meat made it into the supermarkets, and always sensed it would be troublesome to pursue such thinking.

Whatever one's conclusions, I think it is useful to think about how so much cheap meat comes about. Presumably, it could be even cheaper, if less consideration for the animals (and workers) were shown. Looking into current practices, I've seen some improvements (apparently, a growing fraction of veal, 35% on the Wikipedia page, is coming from animals that have been permitted to socialize, walk, and see grass and sky like normal cattle would), and plenty of situations that remain disturbing, and uncomfortable to contemplate.

I am sure that my eating habits aren't perfect, and I am no "fundamentalist" about animal suffering. But I think we can push back against the often inhuman thrust of large-industry profit motives, from time to time, at the very least. If not to shut a factory down, then perhaps to at least slow the line down, when necessary.

[Paulclem]

No-one can be compelled to vegetarianism, but it may be that our eating choices are really habits nurtured by a culture of meat eating. I was brought up on meat and two veg, and it was only later that I reflected upon it and decided to become a veggie. Similarly, there are veggie societies such as in parts of India.

The kill to eat argument isn't about actually having to do it - nobody needs to, as has been pointed out. It is sorted by others. It is about informed choices. Things are a little better nowadays in that there is more information available about meat production methods. My reaction to seeing information on factory farmed eggs on the TV at the age of 25 was to go free range. I didn't like what I saw.

If it is a moral choice, then a choice needs to be made. My younger self - and I am not referring to anyone else on this forum - didn't realise that there was a choice. It was just an eating habit.

Someone else has also pointed out the very bad representation of veggies that you get with celebrity chefs and cooking in general. We watch a number of such progs, and their attitude is consistently scornful. If they do a veggie dish, then it usually involves goat's cheese, which all my family think tastes of stables. Veggies are not well represented.

The moral aspect may be why meat eaters are a bit defensive about it. I think a choice is proper, and a non judgemental attitude to others best. It may become an increasingly poignant issue though if food poverty increases, and we have to re-evaluate our habits. Perhaps a sensible reduction would help.

[JackieGinger]

Well, do not worry your heads off that way, some are compelled to vegetarianism. Around here meat is getting more and more expensive as each year passes...I think we (my family) will not afford to buy meat too often! Will we be vegetarians by choice?

[LitNetIsGreat]

Eggs would eventually grow into chickens. I don't see how that counts as vegetarianism.

Eggs? No eggs that are sold for human consumption are unfertilized, and fair food for vegetarians surely?

Though for me it is a moral choice of having an animal killed just for the sake of it. If I order a chicken salad I am effectively ordering the death of another chicken, which is starting to come across as a bit selfish from my perspective, when I could quite easily order something else. For me it is as simple as that.

I've improved my diet over the last 6 months or so and cutting out mass produced factory meat is just part of that move. I eat much more fruit and veg, pasta and rice, and cutting down of pizzas and such. So I sort of see my move towards vegetarianism as an extension of that. It is often hard to get quality meat or to guarantee the quality of it anyway - and top quality stuff is often hard to come by and on the expensive side. I certainly won't touch microwave ready meals and never have, just think of the meat in those!

I did go for an an Italian the other day and went for the vegetarian option, where usually I wouldn't have probably. I was a little disappointed with it, if I'm honest, as I said before I think they are often sort of token dishes in some restaurants, but in all reality I would be quite happy eating the margarita pizza washed down with a glass of red wine - so next time I'll just do that, it's not a problem.

Well, do not worry your heads off that way, some are compelled to vegetarianism. Around here meat is getting more and more expensive as each year passes...I think we (my family) will not afford to buy meat too often! Will we be vegetarians by choice?

Yes, it's probably only going to go up too. Where are you from anyway?

[JackieGinger]

trust me you don't want to know
well, I think from now on people won't talk to me

I'm from Romania
And I'm a Hungarian (we are a numerous minority here) - is that correct?!

[LitNetIsGreat]

No I do want to know I'm interested. What's wrong with Romania or being Hungarian?

[JackieGinger]

Many western people are prejudiced about Romanians (not Hungarians), and they do have reasons (there are many Romanians going to their countries, and - to put it euphemistically - they tend to misbehave) nevertheless, there are many more that don't, but these aren't really in mass media, as the thugs and rapists,what's more, there are a lot of scientists for instance in America and almost everywhere else, both Hungarian and Romanian, that are very useful for those countries(Romanian educational system is not the best there can be, but it is tough enough, and if you're resistant, determined and ambitious, you have opportunities to learn, from excellent teachers). All in all this country and the people are not bad, they do commit mistakes, as all of us do, but as I said, the bad things are everywhere (TV, newspapers etc.), and there are several negative preconceptions about Romanians, although they are warm, kind and friendly, some of them even open-minded and smart! (But this is the wrong place for me to think that people judge according to the opinions of others.) Glad we cleared this!

[LitNetIsGreat]

Oh I see. I think it unlikely that many people here are going to hold such preconceived views of an entire nation - you're safe I think.