A Song of Ice and Fire by George R. R. Martin

[PabloQ]

I have a theory that this series will never see its end. I read the first 3 volumes in this series and was looking forward to the fourth. And then we learned that volume 4 was too big and the editors wanted Martin to split it into two pieces, which took over a year to produce volume 4. Over a year later, volume 5 has yet to be published. If volume 4 was finished at one point, what takes so long to seperate it into two volumes?
I suspect that Martin has lost interest in his own story. I also suspect that Martin lacks the work ethic to stay focused enough to complete the story. The story was supposed to be six volumes, now its seven or possibly eight and the next in the series are not forthcoming. I suspect that Martin will never finish it. He'll either give up or croak before it's finished.
When I get back to reading mindless popular fiction, I may reread this series, but with a different light. Is Martin really revolutionizing the fantasy genre or is he just injecting gratuitous atrocities to sell books? I suspect that JBI is correct on this and that it's the latter.

[Sepulchrave]

I suspect that Martin has lost interest in his own story. I also suspect that Martin lacks the work ethic to stay focused enough to complete the story.

I can sympathise with those suspicions -- the wait between books has become utterly ridiculous, to be honest. Poor form from Martin.

Is Martin really revolutionizing the fantasy genre or is he just injecting gratuitous atrocities to sell books? I suspect that JBI is correct on this and that it's the latter.

This is an interesting question. I would argue that he has changed the genre to a degree -- most current big authors in the field acknowledge the influence he has had over their work (Lynch and Abercrombie, for example. Hobb has stated that she was 'stunned' by his work. Stover isn't as big, but he's also gone into his admiration for Martin in an interview). From another perspective, however, it's not so much him as it is the changing tone of society as a whole, with the shift toward darker/grittier material. In popular culture, the best examples would be the 'reboots' of classic franchises, in the form of Casino Royale and Batman Begins.

But, getting back to the point, I think that implying Martin is only selling books on the basis of 'gratuitous atrocities' doesn't fly. Maybe more people are embracing this 'dark' factor than ever before, but a good story needs more than that. It needs characters that the reader can connect to (on some level or another) for one. I think Martin is excellent in the realm of characterisation -- it's not just due to the format of one perspective per chapter, but due to the psychological verisimilitude of his portraits. Many people talk of being 'sucked in' to his work, and this is due to (in my opinion, of course) his skill with fleshing out characters on the page. Not an easy thing to do.

[bluevictim]

If I taught a fantasy course at a college level, I think SOIAF (probably just the first book because of time constraints) would be an excellent choice for the Capstone of the course, especially if you're including some Heroic/Epic fantasy in the reading list. It's the perfect book to rethink all the other books that I would probably include. ...

Drkshadow03, thanks for this informative post. I've been curious about this series for a while, and now I'm even more interested. I'll probably read A Game of Thrones sometime in the next couple of months.

So I did finally get around to reading the first three books of this series. I found them quite enjoyable, and I look forward to reading the rest of the series. I think Martin handles his multiple point-of-view approach pretty well; I thought it was a nice touch that the prose in each character's sections reflected that character -- Arya's sections sounded bratty, Tyrion's sections were jaded, and Daenery's sections were visionary. Unfortunately, I feel like he doesn't really have the plot under control, and it doesn't seem like he has the ability to write a good ending. I agree with you (Drkshadow03) that the nature of power is one of the central themes of all three books, along with the conflict between idealism and pragmatism (or between naivete and unscrupulousness?). I liked that he explored these themes in a fairly grown up way -- ideals contradict each other, power is unstable, cunning moves come back to cause catastrophes.

It's blatantly obvious that he is aware of and comments on the rampant misogyny in the story (he does this quite explicitly, really). I don't find the accusation that Martin himself is being misogynistic very convincing; he deals the women a bad hand, but he also gives many of the women in the story the strength (mental and physical) and self agency to play their hands well. At the risk of exposing to the world that I am a twisted pervert, I didn't really find the depictions of sex overly graphic or gratuitously titillating.

By the way, I am curious what the rest of the reading list for your hypothetical fantasy course would contain?

Drk, the fact that you recognize thematic intent in Martin's work does not mean that he is a good writer, sorry. He has pacing down, which is commendable, but I can do that too. This segment is from one of my stories which an editor from the now defunct Bone & Flesh praised for being "a realistic depiction of violence against women". And it is a fantastical piece, though in an urban setting:

"His erection came upon him before Frecca knew a man was there, before the shape and form of an intruder brooked alarm to her mind, before she knew it as a man was there, before she knew he was a man or even the pronoun of maleness (before she knew a man was there), even before she knew something was wrong as she stepped from the kitchenette to the living room, simultaneously speaking to her feline as a mother would speak to an adored adolescent child about the *****iness of the day, before she knew anything else, before he lunged at her--as erections, semen full and charged, somehow seem to signal themselves, she knew of it, her flesh knew of it, and the flesh turned, hackles raised, wanting to tear that aroused sensation out of the air, when he did lunge at her, threw himself at her with the force of a semi-automatic, the bulk of his body impacting against the muscular flesh of her intestines as she screamed, her eyes flashing the horror in phosphorescent red and green and yellows, don’t faint! the horror no this is not happening to me, no! But was there time for denial? The apartment had been empty when the key had unclicked the lock, this she would have sworn to, had she known she still had the ability to swear. She felt the danger a live wire seething just before it hits your skin with its tinge and sizzle, and then this man was on her, threw himself at her, his denim jeans scratching against her stockings, like burlap, the sound. She struggled hard even with the shock of it rolling on her in waves, fortunate in that her body was naturally athletic, taking its routines of jogging and workouts with ease, being an active member of the Washington Square Theatrical Performers Gym though you would never see her near the stage: An arrangement had been worked out in exchange for her occasional paid weekend instruction, that she could have permanent membership at a discount--and so she fought back, as equally, as what she had been given to fight against. Where did he come from? Where was the answer?"

The only reason I did not get paid was the magazine went under, but I will take my work ethic over Martin's any day. I don't care what the genre is, fantasy authors have no excuse for poor diction. No one is saying Martin has to be Faulkner, but he also doesn't have to be as lazy as his excerpts display him to be.

I know it was a long time ago that you posted this, but I wonder if you'd care to be more specific about what you feel makes the excerpt from your story better writing than Martin's? You hinted that you think Martin's diction betrays a lack of effort. I thought his prose was quite useful and appropriate for his novels. Whether or not he spent a lot of effort on it doesn't seem to be particularly relevant.

[Drkshadow03]

Unfortunately, I feel like he doesn't really have the plot under control, and it doesn't seem like he has the ability to write a good ending.

Yeah, I think this becomes more obvious in the 4th book where the plot really feels like it's meandering. He claims he can finish it in 7 books, but so far finishing book 5 has taken him forever, which is making me wonder if he really has lost control of his story.

Still, I'm looking forward to the HBO series.

It's blatantly obvious that he is aware of and comments on the rampant misogyny in the story (he does this quite explicitly, really). I don't find the accusation that Martin himself is being misogynistic very convincing; he deals the women a bad hand, but he also gives many of the women in the story the strength (mental and physical) and self agency to play their hands well. At the risk of exposing to the world that I am a twisted pervert, I didn't really find the depictions of sex overly graphic or gratuitously titillating.

By the way, I am curious what the rest of the reading list for your hypothetical fantasy course would contain?

The Odyssey by Homer

The Tempest by Shakespeare

Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien

The Wizard of Earthsea by Ursula K. LeGuin

Smoke and Mirrors by Neil Gaiman

Perdido Street Station by China Mieville

A Game of Thrones by George R. R. Martin

Course reader:

Epic Pooh essay by Michael Moorcock
"The Library of Babel" by Jorge Luis Borges
"The Call of Cthulhu" by H. P. Lovecraft
"Little Gods" by Tim Pratt
"The Fantasy Writer's Assistant" by Jeffrey Ford
"Paladin of the Lost Hour" by Harlan Ellison
"Travels with the Snow Queen" by Kelly Link
A few other essays/lit crit on fantasy perhaps.

Maybe, or maybe not. There are a lot of directions I could go with a fantasy class. I am not happy that there are no people of color represented in the list, unless you count Borges. I am not thrilled that there are only two women (one novel, one short story). The book selection has a dual personality since one goal when constructing it was to get students to think more broadly about what constitutes fantasy, while focusing heavily on epic, but also including works of Urban fantasy or weird non-traditional fantasy.

[bluevictim]

Yeah, I think this becomes more obvious in the 4th book where the plot really feels like it's meandering. He claims he can finish it in 7 books, but so far finishing book 5 has taken him forever, which is making me wonder if he really has lost control of his story.

Yeah, I just read the first three books because there was a long gap between it and the fourth book so I hoped he would have brought the story to some kind of stopping point. I'll probably wait at least until he finishes book 5 before taking the series up again.

The book selection has a dual personality since one goal when constructing it was to get students to think more broadly about what constitutes fantasy, while focusing heavily on epic, but also including works of Urban fantasy or weird non-traditional fantasy.

Your inclusion of the Odyssey reminds me of a discussion I had a while ago with Petrarch's Love about fantasy being the inheritors of the epic tradition. I disagreed with her because I felt the fundamental nature of fantasy fiction and the role it plays in society were too different from epic. On those points I still pretty much feel the same, but having read more epic fantasy now I see that fantasy writers have adopted many conventions from epic.

[Tyrionforprez]

I have read the first four and i have to say i became nearly obsessed with them ever sense. I have never really been into High Fantasy like Tolkien or the god awful Wizard's first rule series, but A Song of Ice and Fire really sucked me in. I like the Large cast of distinct characters, the pacing and flow of the stories and some of the events which made me nearly jump up and cheering wildly at work. I love how much realism there is because, well, fantasy can sometimes get too caught up in the fantastic and i have a hard time believing what I'm reading. I dont see that with Martin. There may be Dragons, but there's also back-stabbings, infidelity and mothers who just miss there sons.

[Modest Proposal]

Meh, Read Guy Gavriel Kay instead. As fantasy goes, Kay is far more original than Martin could ever be, and, especially in his later works, approaches something which is unseen in Fantasy fiction - decent prose.

I am a late comer to the conversation, but have input both on JBI's condemnation of Martin and on the issue of Fantasy prose.

I have read GRRM's series as far as he has finished writing them and have enjoyed them to a point. His structuring of medieval politics and war are interesting as well as, often, historically accurate. His writting is servicable for the story and even occasionally sustains about as much aesthetic liscense as the mass of fantasy audiences will allow. Mostly, I'm impressed with his endlessly inventive characters--though not as psychologically deep as say Fyodor D.'s--who constantly bring new variations on the many perspectives of the events occuring. He rarely falters from pointing out the evil done by the "good" side, or the incedental justice imposed by the "bad" side. Succinctly, his characters are human, driven by human drives and act intellegently toward their desires, not as plot devices.

I do find myself however enjoying the story despite the treatment of sex. I read Lolita, not unflinchingly, because I read most of it during a week of watching my daughter while my wide was in class. It is difficult and heady, however, I never felt the author excused or condoned the actions--rather, there was a very circuitous absurd, horror at the events. G. Martin however, is not telling the story of a pedophile but the epic of a country. Is the percentage devoted to taboo sexuality really representitive of the percentage it neccessitates in the plot? No, I believe it is not. Like battle scenes, dramatic arguements, escapes, captures the sex is used as entertainment, another event loaded with excitement. But when something as awful as pre-pubescent rape is used in such a wanton manner I find it often obscene and always unnecissary. This is not to condemn all manner of illicit sexual writings, just ones that use such loaded concepts for such cheap aims. It is also, weak and beneath an artist.

As to whether Kay's best works have accomplished the "unseen" in fantasy, in the form of decent prose I must strenuously object. Even the modern dismissal of Lewis and Tolkein--in large part due to their politics and popularity--I would think any student of prose must be impressed with LeGuin, Chesterton, Crowley and even Gene Wolff. All of them--though LeGuin seems of the group the most concerned with substance over style--maintain a level of quality comparable with the highest standards of quality.

I have refrained from bogging down my thoughts with the essential "in my opinion" and hope that the fact that I am writing this makes clear that all of the above is just that.

[JBI]

Historically accurate? Please, show me where - I feign to see the "historical accuracy" in anything there - if we are to take the setting as The War of the Roses, than the warfare is anachronistic - Longbow was the way to go, not heavy cavalry - the Knight errand of the medieval imagination was all but replaced as the main bulk of the army by then - or better yet, the sexual morals which, having done some research into the subject, can be dismissed as anachronistic, and almost entirely a product of Martin's imagination too.

As for my statement about something "unseen" - that was largely hyperbole - I have praised the work of other fantasy authors at various points - I guess I just got carried away in the argument.


On another note, I think this whole concept of "round" fantasy, that is, fantasy without good or bad as something problematic - ultimately there is a good and bad, it is just hidden in its engagement with the audience. The removal of the world implies some necessity, or at least desire from removal - if the world is reflecting this urge of relocation, ultimately it must project an imprint that is a) readable, to an extent, meaning it tells a story people would choose to read, and b) marketable, meaning it tells a story that has the potential of an audience that can make decent money (otherwise we wouldn't all know about it).

In that sense, the removal of Martin's world acts as a means of carrying out a fantasy - one which seeks out the facets of this world, for whatever reasons - be they aesthetic or political. The moralizing then is, if we say that there is no definite good and bad, transferred to the reader, who, by cheering when the prepubescent girls are raped, or shouting when one character is killed, or another not killed ends up being part of that moralizing feature - the fact that there is a desire to read the book implies there is some subjectivity in the reading - it is impossible to escape good and bad, as, ultimately, the reader will decide if it is not obviously spelled out for them - neutrality isn't exactly possible given the nature of the diegetic removal.

In that sense, I don't think it is too big a stretch to suggest that the book invites a sort of rape fantasy - if it itself is not moralizing, the desire to rape - the urge to portray a sort of landscape filled with rape and murder, and forced prostitution - is made all the more disturbing. This isn't Atwood where the moral, or stance of the text is defined - As you put it, everything in Martin is supposedly "Grey", how then can we view an anachronistic portrayal of sexual violence? Can we take it as being part of a "desire" by Martin to have little girls raped in his books? Or a desire of the reader to read about little girls getting raped - either way, the diegesis reflects a fantastical vision of a rather disturbing rape fantasy - it perhaps "aestheticizes" violence against women as a form of entertainment - I think morally such a thing needs to be commented on - why is it that there is so much rape and violence against women in the text? Why is it that the characters are grey? why is it that the book is constructed to portray these things, and how does that fit into marketing?

If we look at other rape sequences in fantasy literature, perhaps we can come up with some other, although still strange, conclusions.


Goodkind is probably the king of rape fantasy fiction - I didn't read too far in his series, but I don't think there was one major female character who is not brutally raped somehow throughout the text - even some of the male characters get thrown to these weird dominatrix-rapist types - the landscaping of his world seems intent on creating an obscure dystopia for some strange political reasons - the actual rape is more commonplace than almost any other event besides dialogue - here we have a world constructed out of violence, and rape, with a sort of hazy political, anti-communist message tied in. What do we make of that then? What is the significance of the landscape in telling a story?


Another strange example is Thomas Covenant (we'll take the first one, since I doubt anybody besides a true devotee to fantasy could go further) by Stephen R. Donaldson. What is the meaning of the rape at the beginning of the text? What does it signify - well, ultimately it is perpetuating a political impression based on the workings of our world. The fact that the book opens in our world suggests an intended meaning to the removal from the realistic plain into the fantasy - the rape then acts, I would argue, as the rape of the fantasy world itself - the world is open, and almost unreal in its existence, and the anti-heroic hero comes in, and does what he wants to it - he is unable to moralize, and is intended to show the weakness of our species, in that, perhaps, some of us aren't able to come to the right decision - still, I know many people who found the scene to be disturbing, and offputting (though, the terrible prose could have facilitated that). How then do we read the text? Well, that is another matter.

[Modest Proposal]

JBI, let me begin by saying I agree with you on most of your points, specifically those associated with the troublesome preoccupation with rape and other sexual abuses. Also, I find myself largely alone among my peers in agreeing with your view of morality in fantasy. My main qualm is a feeling that things are brought in for marketing purposes, or as a clumsy plot device. As I said, this type of usage is obscene and immoral.

I completely understand your hyperbole regarding the prose, no harm done.

As far as historical accuracy, I meant not so much perfect coordination between his world and ours, but a sense that things were organic within the cast rather than driven by the authors plan. Many times surprising, main characters are killed in a very unglorified, even "offstage" manner. Rather than following the formula of good losing every battle until the end--in which they are hopelessly outnumbered--and then winning soundly, I NEVER knew going in who would win. In the middle of a book would be a battle where we'd find out the anagonists were absolutely trounced. This as opposed to someone like Robin Hobb, who seems to give the protagonist no success until the last chapter. It always seemed like Martin flipped a coin to see who won battles and just wrote on the back of fate.

[Babyguile]

"you think it is a work of imaginitive genius"

I never said That. It is a good read.

The whole series doesn't focus on sex. That just seems to be the only parts you payed any attention to.

I've read the first two books. I hated the head-hopping which each chapter (combined with short chapters) and the treatment of women. Whenever I got into one person's story he would change the perspective so that I had to spend three or four pages reading against my will untill I became interested in this persons story, and then he would change it again.

Martin was portraying a misogynistic world for the sake of it. Because he could, because it sells, because it's fantasy and escapism and he could fall on that sword. He wasn't saying anything important about the treatment of women, he was just describing it.

I think it's poor. But remember that this man can write what he wants.

[Drkshadow03]

Did JBI just seriously argue that Martin's work is primarily a rape fantasy, despite the fact that if you brought together all the sexual content and rape scenes at best it would only make up perhaps four chapters of material from a four book series with 500+ pages in each book? And I don't remember the story ever directly depicting a non-consensual rape. There were scenes where the power differences made the sexual engagement questionable, but I don't remember any scene where they depict a completed rape in detail, challenging the titillation hypothesis, and pretty much confirming that most the sexual content is there to complete the "realist" aesthetics of violence as a critique of the fantasy genre's often sanitized violence, and to add another commentary on power dynamics, which is one of the main themes of the story (reason for its inclusion).

The multiple female POV characters (Arya, Sansa, Cersei, and Brienne) that directly comment on the misogyny of their world and restrictions on them as women, completely invalidates JBI's comments that one cannot discern Martin's POV on those issues like one could in Atwood's work. If he wasn't trying to comment on the misogyny of his world there would be no need for these characters whose decisions and desires directly pit them against that misogyny and who directly comment on it during their POVs.

JBI's analysis also confuses what is meant by "grey" characters. They are grey characters because their are many angles to what makes them tick, they have reasons for their behavior, but most importantly of all they are not by essence evil or good (this last point is the crux of the matter). That doesn't mean some of their deeds aren't immoral. To de-sexualize the content, trying to murder an eight-year-old by pushing him off the window sill is clearly immoral. Funny, no one is declaring that people get off on Bran falling and crippling himself, and it's really a child abuse fantasy or a disability fantasy. Having grey characters doesn't mean there are no moral issues; it just means they're more complex, and right and wrong isn't as easy to separate from each other, not that there is no right or wrong at all, hence the misreading.

So I will agree with one point that JBI makes, that the story invites a rape fantasy for certain readers. Usually very unsophisticated readers.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I was looking through old posts of mine and stumbled on to this, one of my first real debates on LitNet (one I executed quite poorly, I see now). Since this took place, I've grown a lot as a reader and appreciator of literature. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire still ranks as my favorite books.

Reading over this thread, the accusation that I most disagree with now is that Martin's prose and diction are poor (the pro-rape argument just seems silly, now). Just false.

Anyways, just bumping this to see if anyone has anything to say on the series. I'm really looking forward to the HBO adaptation; it looks really good. I just hope Martin actually finishes his series before he keels over.

[mortalterror]

Why would he finish it now? His check's already cleared.

[Drkshadow03]

Why would he finish it now? His check's already cleared.

Yet, he continues to work on a ton of other projects. I think the guy just has the worst case of writer's block imaginable. I mean seriously it's been five freaking years since the last one and he supposedly had half the book already done five years ago (in his decision to split A Feast of Crows and the long-awaited Dance of Dragons)!

[OrphanPip]

The fifth book is a bit overdue, it's been five years since the last one was published and Martin is tight lipped about his progress on the most recent one.

Edit: I wouldn't be surprised if he pulled a Robert Jordan though.