The Benefits of Celibacy and Chastity

[NikolaiI]

I believe I was the one speaking of "uncontrollable desires." If you are able to live as a truly celibate person, that is to your credit, and may God richly bless you.

Now I'm not trying to start trouble, but I note that most practitioners of enforced celibacy tend to withdraw from society, and live apart from the world. We cannot judge what they do or do not, as what goes on behind closed doors does, and should, stay there.

Blessed are they that can live such a life, but don't take your vows if you cannot keep them. The Bible says Qoh.5
[4] When thou vowest a vow unto God, defer not to pay it; for he hath no pleasure in fools: pay that which thou hast vowed.

Qoh.5
[6] Suffer not thy mouth to cause thy flesh to sin; neither say thou before the angel, that it was an error: wherefore should God be angry at thy voice, and destroy the work of thine hands?

In other words, if you take a vow, take it seriously, don't break it! And if you feel you might break that vow, don't start on that pathway.

God bless

Pen

Well, I never mentioned forced celibacy, or vows of celibacy. I am just speaking of it as a natural way of life, and unfortunately one which is covered up in our Western society. Why make any vow at all? That wasn't at all part of what I was thinking of.

As far as I can tell, mainly it is about what we believe. In spiritual life in India for example, it is fairly universal, a high ideal is to be satisfied, to be without desires, to live a peaceful and spiritually striving life. And in America, you get so much junk mail, advertising, everything, which is saying exactly the opposite. "Don't be happy unless you have THIS product." And so it has its effect.

Ah, this is an incomplete post, but it is already way too late, so forgive me for leaving it so.



Well, I also wanted to say two things addressing this philosophically. One is this. It is not an ontological proof. It comes from Vedanta, from Taoism (Tao Te Ching) and so forth. The idea is that peace is attained when non-duality is realized, and further, that that peace is infinite. I don't know what I can say about this. But it is real. The Self that you really are is infinite.

The second thing is from your religion. Christ said, be perfect as God is perfect. And yet perfection seems to be abhorrent to Christians - the reason I say this is that nothing is reacted to as negatively as someone saying "I am perfect." This is not just true for Christians but also Buddhists, etc. They think it is antagonistic and so many other things.

But would Christ say be perfect if it were not possible? Here's the thing: it is possible. There are at least millions of humans living perfected lives today, this very day.

Perfection is not something you attain. See, here is the thing. We are complete. Whole. Ourselves, as we are. Whether we are physically fit or even a cripple - this is not a physical perfection but an ontological truth. Everything in the universe is whole and complete. The parts are whole and complete. So this is what we are searching for, what we need - wholeness, completeness, perfection.

Everything and everyone is whole. So it is the greatest disservice to preach the opposite, to preach that we are weak, that we are sinners, that we are incomplete. If you say these things, then they will become true.

So this is a pervasive idea in our society, that we are lacking something. That we need a, b, c, infinite things, we must have them, to be satisfied. We must be rich. Attractive. Adored. Intelligent. And if you take any of them away, ah, then you are inferior. No one is perfect. You hear it all the time. No one is complete.

So it is the opposite of reality. Everyone is complete. This is a distinction that really must be understood. We don't need all those things, not really. Srila Prabhupada called sex an "unnecessary necessity."

Maybe it is a high ideal. Of course balance is good and necessary. Only, someone who is very pure, you cannot call them imbalanced. If you doubt me, all I can say is find out for yourself. Go to a monastery! You will find people imbued with good qualities and warmth. Go to a Hindu temple! These are people who have in their culture very high ideals, and ones very beneficial for harmonious society.

As far as the philosophy goes; that is the main thing, that the highest enlightenment (or also, really, many stages along the way, as well) is that one is at peace. The philosophy is that we are complete, whole. Perfect. That is why it is self-realization. Perfection is not impossible. We are not incomplete by nature, that is a great lie. It becomes true, however, when it is believed. Likewise the truth that we are whole by nature, complete in our essence, that also becomes true when it is believed.

I know there is nothing I can say to describe the fact that in relation to the knowledge of infinite peace, everything, including this entire life, is merely nothing. But yet it is true. But that is a slightly different realm of topic. The thing is though - we are not lacking anything. This can be realized, it can be known.

But philosophically - that is my position. That we are whole, complete. If we realize this, then we do not need anything. Desire, actually, nothing else means anything in relation to enilghtenment, to self-realization. And no this is not something that can be argued or forced. Nor is it meant to.

[NikolaiI]

Nobody has to make a vow about celibacy just because they want to do it, right?

Right. Exactly. Vows and forced celibacy are, albeit related, side topics to the one of this thread.

[blazeofglory]

Nikolai,
You have a very positive attitude in life and take everything positively and spiritually. The world is different than you sublimely and sentimentally take it to be. Of course in Hindu temples and monasteries there are people seemingly maintaining but in reality they are not and they are indulging in things of luxuries and even in sexual perversions. They live with lives of double standards, one to keep to themselves and the other public.
Life is really different than we perceive and if we can see privacies or something people do in hiding and even so called religiously minded saints priests, popes and the like they are simply hypocrites.

[kiki1982]

Unless you can come with real hard facts, BlazeofGlory, I find it utterly low to accuse ALL of those who are celibate of keeping double standards.

Sure, there must be some who don't keep up, should never have become a monk (should never have chosen or should never have been forced), but there are definitely loads wohave chosen that and who keep their celibacy.

They do not all live in luxury and hypocrisy. Some might do, but it does not take away the honour of the rest.

[grotto]

As far as I can tell, mainly it is about what we believe. In spiritual life in India for example, it is fairly universal, a high ideal is to be satisfied, to be without desires, to live a peaceful and spiritually striving life. And in America, you get so much junk mail, advertising, everything, which is saying exactly the opposite. "Don't be happy unless you have THIS product." And so it has its effect.

Well, I also wanted to say two things addressing this philosophically. One is this. It is not an ontological proof. It comes from Vedanta, from Taoism (Tao Te Ching) and so forth. The idea is that peace is attained when non-duality is realized, and further, that that peace is infinite. I don't know what I can say about this. But it is real. The Self that you really are is infinite.

But would Christ say be perfect if it were not possible? Here's the thing: it is possible. There are at least millions of humans living perfected lives today, this very day.

Perfection is not something you attain. See, here is the thing. We are complete. Whole. Ourselves, as we are. Whether we are physically fit or even a cripple - this is not a physical perfection but an ontological truth. Everything in the universe is whole and complete. The parts are whole and complete. So this is what we are searching for, what we need - wholeness, completeness, perfection.

Everything and everyone is whole. So it is the greatest disservice to preach the opposite, to preach that we are weak, that we are sinners, that we are incomplete. If you say these things, then they will become true.

So this is a pervasive idea in our society, that we are lacking something. That we need a, b, c, infinite things, we must have them, to be satisfied. We must be rich. Attractive. Adored. Intelligent. And if you take any of them away, ah, then you are inferior. No one is perfect. You hear it all the time. No one is complete.

So it is the opposite of reality. Everyone is complete. This is a distinction that really must be understood. We don't need all those things, not really. Srila Prabhupada called sex an "unnecessary necessity."

Maybe it is a high ideal. Of course balance is good and necessary. Only, someone who is very pure, you cannot call them imbalanced. If you doubt me, all I can say is find out for yourself. Go to a monastery! You will find people imbued with good qualities and warmth. Go to a Hindu temple! These are people who have in their culture very high ideals, and ones very beneficial for harmonious society.

As far as the philosophy goes; that is the main thing, that the highest enlightenment (or also, really, many stages along the way, as well) is that one is at peace. The philosophy is that we are complete, whole. Perfect. That is why it is self-realization. Perfection is not impossible. We are not incomplete by nature, that is a great lie. It becomes true, however, when it is believed. Likewise the truth that we are whole by nature, complete in our essence, that also becomes true when it is believed.

I know there is nothing I can say to describe the fact that in relation to the knowledge of infinite peace, everything, including this entire life, is merely nothing. But yet it is true. But that is a slightly different realm of topic. The thing is though - we are not lacking anything. This can be realized, it can be known.

But philosophically - that is my position. That we are whole, complete. If we realize this, then we do not need anything. Desire, actually, nothing else means anything in relation to enilghtenment, to self-realization. And no this is not something that can be argued or forced. Nor is it meant to.

There is not much I could argue with nor do I care to pick any of what you said apart, a lot of what you have stated is very fundamental but, and here is my only point. Is not seeking enlightenment a form of desire? Is not setting one way or philosophy against another a dualism? Is not assuming that sex is a banal level desire as you seem to described no different than someone accusing all spiritual schools of thought banal because a few leaders of those schools of thought have abused their power? If everything is as it truly needs to be, then everything is as it should be, so to go against by picking a “better” way is in rebellion against what is. Is not all seeking desire?

I’m not arguing against anyone’s wish to be celibate, if they decide for themselves that they choose that path, best of luck to them, it’s only when they point to their reason for doing so as a defense against what they see as mere carnal desiring that I will point out that they may be missing a bigger piece of the pie. There are those who will never get beyond a base level, those who do and those who choose to ignore, like enlightenment, sex is the same for all. We make our choices and in making a choice we automatically negate the other, there is no way around it unless, unless we truly open our eyes!

[NikolaiI]

There is not much I could argue with nor do I care to pick any of what you said apart, a lot of what you have stated is very fundamental but, and here is my only point. Is not seeking enlightenment a form of desire? Is not setting one way or philosophy against another a dualism? Is not assuming that sex is a banal level desire as you seem to described no different than someone accusing all spiritual schools of thought banal because a few leaders of those schools of thought have abused their power? If everything is as it truly needs to be, then everything is as it should be, so to go against by picking a “better” way is in rebellion against what is. Is not all seeking desire?

I’m not arguing against anyone’s wish to be celibate, if they decide for themselves that they choose that path, best of luck to them, it’s only when they point to their reason for doing so as a defense against what they see as mere carnal desiring that I will point out that they may be missing a bigger piece of the pie. There are those who will never get beyond a base level, those who do and those who choose to ignore, like enlightenment, sex is the same for all. We make our choices and in making a choice we automatically negate the other, there is no way around it unless, unless we truly open our eyes!

Ah, thank you for all your nice questions. I am sorry I don't have time to reply much in depth at the moment.

Is not seeking enlightenment a form of desire?

Yes.

Is not setting one way or philosophy against another a dualism?

Kind of. Sort of. Perhaps. But then on one level there is distinction while on another level there is not. There are numerless paths, and also there is one best path, I think, which the poem by Seng Ts'an, Hsin Hsin Ming, describes quite beautifully. The opening words, "The Great Way requires nothing difficult, only to refrain from picking and choosing."

Sex is definitely part of life, and just as I never mentioned vows of celibacy or forced celibacy, I also never intended to sound as though I thought it was banal; nor that some celibacy means necessarily life-long celibacy.

I was recently reading some quotes of William James. Part of his philosophy seems to be, perhaps crudely or over-simply stated, character building. This is also inherent in Buddhism, as you know. We should not live only for our own comfort and desire. Buddhists sometimes say, we should try to find out who we really are, or begin that spiritual path of seeking truth, even if there is some suffering along the way. We shouldn't avoid suffering like it is the plague. And I think it is also in the Hsin Hsin Ming, or the Inscription on Trust in the Mind, where he says, he doesn't distinguish between coarse or fine...

I would write more and reply to some more of your questions but I have to go.

[*Classic*Charm*]

I'm curious, Nik: where do masturbation and oral sex figure into your views on celibacy and chastity?

[*Classic*Charm*]

I'm going to respond to your scientific claims as well.

I'm really curious to know what book this was that you read, Nik, as well upon what research it is based.

A couple weeks ago I was reading a book, about the benefits of celibacy and chastity, and it was really remarkable and enlightening. I never knew how beneficial it was for health and well-being, physically, mentally and spiritually. This book was actually mainly centered on celibacy in males, and I don't know much about it with women.

But anyway, being celibate much improves how much energy one has, and one's ability to think well and creatively.

False! An hour of sex burns roughly 400 calories, which is significant enough to constitute exercise, but not more than a good trip to the gym. It's also good for promoting good cardiac health. Besides that, it releases lots of good endorphins, which decrease depression and generally put people in a better mood, which I'll go so far as to say makes for better thinking!

The evidence is fairly persuasive for this. Sex depletes vital fluids,

False! Firstly, you'll want to be more specific about what you mean by "vital fluids". If you're speaking in terms of sweat and electrolytes, again, that loss is equivalent to that lost during a trip to the gym which is in most cases not harmful to one's health. If you're speaking in terms of the ejaculate fluid, there's nothing especially vital to a man's health in that fluid. What's there is meant to be there specifically for the purpose of helping move along the little swimmers. Also, the actual volume of the ejaculate in not anywhere close to being dangerous in terms of, say, dehydrating the man, were there anything in that fluid that would cause dehydration.

which if not depleted get reabsorbed into the body, to be precise, reabsorbed into the spine, which is where the nervous center is. Thus to be celibate retains the vital fluids which are very helpful for brain development and so forth.

False! Your spine does not absorb fluid. It contains fluids, but those fluids don't come and go. Also, the fluid contained within the spinal cord does not influence brain development.

Semen consists of almost the exact same chemical constituion as the brain. It is mostly lechitin, and the grey matter in the brain is composed of 20% lechitin.

False! Not even close. Grey matter is composed of a whole pile of different types of bundles of nerve cells. There is no part of semen that compares to the composition of nerve fibres or nervous tissues. They simply are not comparable.

As a disclaimer, I am not a scientist and I could be wrong about the wording of some of this. It's also been a couple of weeks since I read from the book, so forgive my imperfect knowledge. But it's my understanding that the vital fluids, when conserved, are reabsorbed into the spine, and that the nervous center is also around the same area.

If anyone knows more than I do and would like to share, please do! And of course I am very interested to know all your opinions.

Lastly, the list of scientists, philosophers, artists, mathematicians, and so forth, and geniuses from all fields, who lived continent lives is very great. I'll just list a few which are a little more well known to people, especially from the Western countries.

Pythagoras, Hippocrates, Democritus, Aristotle, Celsus, Prophets Elijah and Elisha, John the Baptist, Jesus Christ, Apollonius of Tyana, Plotinus, Porphyry, Fra Angelico, Michelangelo, Pascal, Spinoza, Newton, Leibniz, Handel, Kant, Beethoven, Schopenhauer, Thoreau, Spencer, Nietzsche, Tesla, Sidis...

Have any of you studied about the physiological and other benefits of celibacy and chastity? For me it is also connected with vegetarianism and avoidance of intoxication, which have somewhat similar benefits..

Sorry Nik! This is definitely not directed at you, just at whoever wrote that book. The claims made by the author are simply not true. All my information is based on my own university education, and some info from a friend who's university degree program includes a lot of courses on sex haha.

[Pendragon]

Everything and everyone is whole. So it is the greatest disservice to preach the opposite, to preach that we are weak, that we are sinners, that we are incomplete. If you say these things, then they will become true.

I wasn't aware that I was preaching the opposite. I merely believe that perfection can be obtained without extreme measures, such as forbidding natural sexual desires.

So it is the opposite of reality. Everyone is complete. This is a distinction that really must be understood. We don't need all those things, not really. Srila Prabhupada called sex an "unnecessary necessity."

Not to cast stones at this revered person, but something is either necessary or unnecessary, but it cannot be both. It may be something that one chooses to react or not react to, but not empirical in any way. Thus your choice rules you, to, as Yoda says, "Do or do not. There is no try."

God bless you on your chose pathway to eternal peace, and may you be perfect in all of your ways. I enjoy talking with you, as I find you most polite, and defending your points without personal rancor. So few manage to do that.

Again. God bless and keep you, my friend.

Pen

[Pendragon]

Unless you can come with real hard facts, BlazeofGlory, I find it utterly low to accuse ALL of those who are celibate of keeping double standards.

Sure, there must be some who don't keep up, should never have become a monk (should never have chosen or should never have been forced), but there are definitely loads wohave chosen that and who keep their celibacy.

They do not all live in luxury and hypocrisy. Some might do, but it does not take away the honour of the rest.

Exactly. The ones that can keep themselves pure are not to be judged by the ones who fail. I agree with you that some should have never taken vows or become a monk, as they have yet to exorcise their personal demons.

God bless,

Pen.

[kiki1982]

Now that is a right statement.

[NikolaiI]

I wasn't aware that I was preaching the opposite. I merely believe that perfection can be obtained without extreme measures, such as forbidding natural sexual desires.

Yes, but as I was saying, a perfect being has no desire. Desire is indication of incompleteness, imperfection. Desire means that someone is not fully satisfied. Perfection means satisfaction not based on anything external.

Please don't think that I am saying sex is wrong. On an absolute level, there is no right or wrong. But on another level, there is long term benefit versus short term gratifaction.

Not to cast stones at this revered person, but something is either necessary or unnecessary, but it cannot be both. It may be something that one chooses to react or not react to, but not empirical in any way. Thus your choice rules you, to, as Yoda says, "Do or do not. There is no try."

You missed the point entirely. What he meant was that it is a perceived necessity that is really unnecessary at all.

God bless you on your chose pathway to eternal peace, and may you be perfect in all of your ways. I enjoy talking with you, as I find you most polite, and defending your points without personal rancor. So few manage to do that.

Hm, thanks

[NikolaiI]

Classic, I wouldn't take everything those people say without question.

The book is called Brain Gain, subtitled The Wisdom of Celibacy and Chastity by His Holiness Danavir Goswami. The first chapter is inspired and discusses the writings of Dr. R. W. Bernard... I put a link to his work earlier, on page 2 or post 23, that link is here: http://www.ktk.ru/~cm/contin.htm

I haven't read all of it. I don't really expect anyone here to read it, nor will I challenge them to. Who wants to read about something they are not interested in, and which goes against what they've been taught?

Dr. Bernard was not the only person besides myself to advocate the benefits of celibacy, and that it does not do harm. Besides spiritual teachers, there are hundreds if not thousands of acclaimed scientists who have come to similar conclusions.

Yes, there are a similar number of those who say the opposite, who say exactly what you said - it is good because of the reasons you mentioned. So, do some research, and come to your own conclusions. Again, I wouldn't take everything your university professors tell you without question, in fact I would say probably the majority of it is very wrong. If you take what they say without question, then you are limited by their limitations (in their thinking, which isn't separated by a void from their actions and lives, and inner hopes or depressions).

[Pendragon]

You missed the point entirely. What he meant was that it is a perceived necessity that is really unnecessary at all.

Well. again, no discredit to the worthy Srila Prabhupada, but the point (which I did not miss), is that I cannot comment on what he meant, but rather on what you reported that he said. So I stand by my former post, without any hard feelings on my part,
God bless,

Pen

[NikolaiI]

Well. again, no discredit to the worthy Srila Prabhupada, but the point (which I did not miss), is that I cannot comment on what he meant, but rather on what you reported that he said. So I stand by my former post, without any hard feelings on my part,
God bless,

Pen

I understand what you mean. But you did not understand what he meant by what he said. What he meant was, it's a so-called necessity, a perceived necessity, which is not really necessary.

Of course with no hard feelings, just a tedium.