The Benefits of Celibacy and Chastity

[Pendragon]

It's not that being celibate gives joy. Spiritual life gives joy. But I know better than to "argue" that with an atheist.

Probably a fair bet. I'm not an atheist, of course, and spiritual life can be found without denying natural impulse.

Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. That is very dubious and most certainly not factual. If you study philosophy a lot you'll learn that causality is nearly impossible to prove. We can have indications sometimes but even then it's not considered "proven." But in that particular case, that is very far-fetched to say that.

Don't you think I would have researched this BEFORE I posted it? Facts are what is left after people can no longer deny the truth. Perhaps you are still in denial...

[Nietzsche]

Those who would like to reap the absolute benefits of celibacy should give married life a try!

I hear it is the sure path to "Celibate Town".

Haha, funny.

[The Atheist]

And I find, it is always the people who are having sex who expound the joys of sex.

Stands to reason, doesn't it? Celibate people clearly aren't going to know.

Obviously, if you have chosen or experience a certain life style and it woks for you, you are going to advertise the joys of it.

I don't think that works in this case. I've never seen anyone expounding the joys of sex in effort to make others partake, but I do see celibates advertising and promoting their life choice.

I too am an atheist, I have no religious creed per se nor do I believe in a God, but some people just don't care for sex or relationships. It is not denial of ecstasy, if you find these things just to be a distraction there is no sense in pressuring someone who is asexual or has chosen an asexual life into sexuality. Don't forget, my fellow non-believer, that in the absence of a God, there is no absolute moral convictions exist as there is no supreme deity to force them onto us. Thsly, all morality is man made. Morals are formed on personal perception of life, emotion, and right and wrong. Whether you want to see the world as Anton LaVey, Buddha, Lao Tzu, Hegel, Kant, Nietzsche, or whoever... it's irrelevant, the important thing is to have some sort of system on deciding what is right or wrong to you. For you, you like sex, and crave it. You obviously find it enjoyable and necessary. But don't forget, sexuality exists for one thing, and by proxy, love also exists for this, finding a suitable mate to raise children with. Purely based on that, there is no reason for sexuality if one does not desire children, or does not want to be married, why should that individual be pressured or be made to feel wrong for not pursuing such herd instincts? Sexuality is an important part in psychological development yes, but if one does not feel it necessary one should not be made to take part in it.

I'm not sure what this is all about as I see no connection between sex and morality and even less between sex and child bearing.

Sex is about enjoyment.

I certainly wouldn't try to force someone to break their vows; I just think it's a bit cutting off one's nose to spite their face.

[grotto]

Deprivation never works and to justify a deprivation with a yet unknown or understood goal sets one on the never ending question of “Am I truly doing what is best for me” while trying to get justification for ones actions by others opinions or putting together a list of data, (one sided I may add) to justify that position, espousing it and then looking for support to strengthen what one is unsure of but wants to believe while ignoring or closing ones mind to a counter position because it once again goes against ones ideal that hasn’t truly been tested. If one is truly convinced in their decision of celibacy as a way of life in a spiritual quest and they knew it in their soul of souls, they wouldn’t be here asking, they wouldn’t need our opinion.

There is a value in celibacy, that value being compared to not being celibate by the individual and while true, one could argue the fact that I don’t have to know how to murder someone to know it’s not for me, there is certain amount of freedom in being able to choose because one has experienced both sides. To pit spirituality against sexuality automatically sets up a dualism, “this is good and that is bad”, one is keeping me from the other and that is not seeing the inherent value of either.

Sex is far from the banal bump and grind, lust filled social representation portrayed in our current society and the majority never get past that image, The amount of people in their later years who continually try and recapture the loss of that image can attest to, they have never gotten beyond the idea either, and, consumerism loves portraying an image that can be profited from. For those of you who haven’t yet experienced a true connection with another person that goes beyond the basic and banal lustful drive, I would ask, why? before I throw the baby out with the bath water and assume it’s all not for me. Not to sound like an old codger but, if your in your early 20’s trying to decide if it’s worth it, you haven’t yet reached a point where you can make a life long decision yet, you are still to attached to others ideas.

Best of luck to those who hard-line celibacy as a way to spiritual enlightenment and to those who argue sex is the only way, you are both missing the point. There is value in both as a whole and as an individual experience, for we are nothing more than our experiences up and above anatomy.

[TurquoiseSunset]

Deprivation never works...

Not everybody will see it as deprivation...

...(one sided I may add)...

Are you saying that everyone who chooses celibacy are still virgins? That's not necessarily the case. They could've been sexually active for years and years, before becoming celibate. Celibacy and chastity do not necessarily go hand in hand.

...closing ones mind...

You can't say everyone who chooses celibacy or chastity are closed minded (unless I misunderstood what you were saying), because you don't know their reasons for choosing what they did.

Not to sound like an old codger but, if your in your early 20’s trying to decide if it’s worth it, you haven’t yet reached a point where you can make a life long decision yet, you are still to attached to others ideas.

I think this is unfair. For many people this decision involves a lot consideration for various reasons. That doesn't make them incapable of making "life long decisions" or attached to other's ideas.

[grotto]

TurquoiseSunset; Of course everyone will see things differently and this is a forum to expound on different opinions. Is it not?

I never assumed that everyone who chooses celibacy is a virgin nor did I state that and I know not everyone sees it at depravation, but, and this is the big but, some do and that’s what I was pointing to.

You misunderstood or I didn’t say it right. Every one has the right to choose his own path, I don’t think that being celibate is closed minded, I have been celibate in the past and will most likely be in the future would be guess and the reason (which is my choice), is not from a doctrine or verbiage promising something that I follow blindly while I latch onto another’s opinion, I come to my decisions in time and with information that I have gleaned over time, be it spiritual, factual or personal.

As far as your last comment; It’s not unfair, it’s been my experience and I’m voicing that opinion, I was in my early 20’s once and I thought I knew it all only to look back and realize that I didn’t know jack sh!t, along with a lot of my current pears and those older than I, we do have some experience and I also know about rebellion during my earlier years. My point is that one should think long and hard before making any life long decision, unlike a tattoo, celibacy is easy to revert. Question everything!

[Nietzsche]

Stands to reason, doesn't it? Celibate people clearly aren't going to know.




I don't think that works in this case. I've never seen anyone expounding the joys of sex in effort to make others partake, but I do see celibates advertising and promoting their life choice.

Ah, in public high school people often boast about having sex and scorn those who are not active. That being said, I live in the upstate of south carolina, it's no secret the stupidity that comes from the state I live in haha. I'm not in high school anymore, though. Anyway, sex is in everything in almost every form of media and entertainment, so it seems far more thrown in peoples faces. You don't see many movies, saying "DONT HAVE SEX!". Most monks that live a monastic lifestyle stay in their little place. As far as religion preaching celibacy, I don't go to church so I don't hear that, but I know Christianity tends to portray sex as an evil act at times , which it is not.

I'm not sure what this is all about as I see no connection between sex and morality and even less between sex and child bearing.

Sex is about enjoyment.

You don't see the connection between sex and child bearing? I direct you to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_reproduction

Though of course if protection is taken, pregnancy is not a concern. And as far as morality, I don't believe in an absolute morality but every person has their own moral codes they live by, and if someone has chosen certain ways of life pertaining to sex there is nothing wrong with it. If there is no absolute morality, doing something is in the end no less or more preferable than not doing something. "I have my way, you have your way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way : It does not exist. " - Nietzsche.

I certainly wouldn't try to force someone to break their vows; I just think it's a bit cutting off one's nose to spite their face.

I can't argue with that, it's true.

Keep in mind, I am not saying celibacy is how everyone should be. I'm just saying, if someone wants to not have sex, they have a right that life style as the reasons behind it are fairly legit, no less legit than having sex. To each their own, I say.


There are some, who for reasons not at all related to religion, do not wish to engage in it. I just am defending people who have chosen to do that, or do not feel comfortable with it, wish to wait until marriage, nor not be married at all... Celibacy and Chastity are separate, you can remain a celibate bachelor and still be sexual, and technically you could be married and never consummate the marriage, thusly remaining chaste.

I'm again not advocating celibacy or chastity, just pointing out the irrelevancy of ones choice of life style as they all have advantage and disadvantages ; do what thou willt as someone earlier said.

[Pendragon]

Well the point is that they have put a block into their minds, that vow of celibacy, and it acts the same as a dam on a river. You get backed up thoughts and desires, unless you claim to be more than human, in which case, I'll make you an exception to the rule.

Ever notice how dams have holes in them, even if they are not for generation of electricity? It allows for release of pressure. A spillway allows for times of too much rain, etc.

But they come to that block and fail to have release for it, and if they do they are ashamed of their weakness. Welcome to the human race, folks!

[Nietzsche]

Well the point is that they have put a block into their minds, that vow of celibacy, and it acts the same as a dam on a river. You get backed up thoughts and desires, unless you claim to be more than human, in which case, I'll make you an exception to the rule.

Ever notice how dams have holes in them, even if they are not for generation of electricity? It allows for release of pressure. A spillway allows for times of too much rain, etc.

But they come to that block and fail to have release for it, and if they do they are ashamed of their weakness. Welcome to the human race, folks!

That is a very good way of putting it.

[The Atheist]

Best of luck to those who hard-line celibacy as a way to spiritual enlightenment and to those who argue sex is the only way, you are both missing the point. There is value in both as a whole and as an individual experience, for we are nothing more than our experiences up and above anatomy.

Bloody well said.

Ah, in public high school people often boast about having sex and scorn those who are not active.

I'd like to think discussions here are a long way removed from that. Often turns out in those situations that the biggest scorners are the biggest losers anyway.

Anyway, sex is in everything in almost every form of media and entertainment, so it seems far more thrown in peoples faces. You don't see many movies, saying "DONT HAVE SEX!". Most monks that live a monastic lifestyle stay in their little place. As far as religion preaching celibacy, I don't go to church so I don't hear that, but I know Christianity tends to portray sex as an evil act at times , which it is not.

That's more about making money from sex rather than a philosophical view.

As you note, religion on the other hand, makes quite a big deal about it.

You don't see the connection between sex and child bearing?

Well, I have four kids, but I've had a sex lot more than four times.

Keep in mind, I am not saying celibacy is how everyone should be. I'm just saying, if someone wants to not have sex, they have a right that life style as the reasons behind it are fairly legit, no less legit than having sex. To each their own, I say.

I'll go along with that. Just interests me that many of them try to promote it as a lifestyle.

Well the point is that they have put a block into their minds, that vow of celibacy, and it acts the same as a dam on a river. You get backed up thoughts and desires, unless you claim to be more than human, in which case, I'll make you an exception to the rule.

Ever notice how dams have holes in them, even if they are not for generation of electricity? It allows for release of pressure. A spillway allows for times of too much rain, etc.

But they come to that block and fail to have release for it, and if they do they are ashamed of their weakness. Welcome to the human race, folks!

Usual top-class comment from Pen!

[NikolaiI]

I have to disagree with you Atheist. It is over-simplifying, rather baseless, and untrue, as well as unnecessarily pessimistic. Or not pessisimistic rather, but one-sided. Very limited. In India it is not like this. Don't be restricted in your view. Don't think that everyone has uncontrollable urges. Or that if you don't satisfy those urges you will have uncontrollable desires. This is only a conditioned mode of thinking.

What can I possibly say? I have been living in a Vaisnava temple for two months and what you say is absolutely untrue. My life has never been better. I am completely blissful when I sleep, and during the day, I am peaceful even though engaged in so many activities. The bottom line, and I say this to you as well as to Blaze, is do not become so linear in your thinking. Absolutely anything is possible. Remember that or try to learn it. As Henry Ford said, if you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.

The simple thing is that you can be completely pure from desire if you so choose, and if you find the right association and the right practice. I would say, yes, probably it is necessary to be in the company of Buddhists or Hindus. Not to speak of attempting such a thing if you eat meat... but that is a side-topic and I know it will only rile emotions.

The fact is, I cannot speak of this separately from my own aspiration of enilghtenment.

Non-duality, the peace of knowing that one is one with nature, equally at peace as the stars in the sky and all of this earth, and everything, as at peace as the Infinite, the Absolute, the Om - that peace of non-duality is infinitely greater than any desire. Further, no satisfaction of desires will ever satisfy one permanently. And yet it is possible to attain that satisfaction, but only by some work, some practice, some discipline, and yes, some renunciation.

There is an idea in Hinduism which is this: whatever you think of, you will become. The worm in the tree is always thinking of the wood-pecker trying to get it, and even though it is thinking this in enmity, at the end of its life it becomes a wood-pecker. If you meditate on something peaceful, let us say some trees, then you will become peaceful. Try meditation, it works. And for heaven's sake, don't say there are no tangible results from meditation, or that those who say they have found peace are hypocrites!

[The Atheist]

I have to disagree with you Atheist. It is over-simplifying, rather baseless, and untrue, as well as unnecessarily pessimistic. Or not pessisimistic rather, but one-sided. Very limited. In India it is not like this. Don't be restricted in your view. Don't think that everyone has uncontrollable urges. Or that if you don't satisfy those urges you will have uncontrollable desires. This is only a conditioned mode of thinking.

You're getting me mixed up with someone else - I haven't made any comments along that line.

[Pendragon]

I have to disagree with you Atheist. It is over-simplifying, rather baseless, and untrue, as well as unnecessarily pessimistic. Or not pessisimistic rather, but one-sided. Very limited. In India it is not like this. Don't be restricted in your view. Don't think that everyone has uncontrollable urges. Or that if you don't satisfy those urges you will have uncontrollable desires. This is only a conditioned mode of thinking.

I believe I was the one speaking of "uncontrollable desires." If you are able to live as a truly celibate person, that is to your credit, and may God richly bless you.

Now I'm not trying to start trouble, but I note that most practitioners of enforced celibacy tend to withdraw from society, and live apart from the world. We cannot judge what they do or do not, as what goes on behind closed doors does, and should, stay there.

Blessed are they that can live such a life, but don't take your vows if you cannot keep them. The Bible says Qoh.5
[4] When thou vowest a vow unto God, defer not to pay it; for he hath no pleasure in fools: pay that which thou hast vowed.

Qoh.5
[6] Suffer not thy mouth to cause thy flesh to sin; neither say thou before the angel, that it was an error: wherefore should God be angry at thy voice, and destroy the work of thine hands?

In other words, if you take a vow, take it seriously, don't break it! And if you feel you might break that vow, don't start on that pathway.

God bless

Pen

[billl]

Nobody has to make a vow about celibacy just because they want to do it, right?

[kiki1982]

You know, it wasn't always required for Christian priests to be celibate. Heck, Peter was said to be the First Pope, and the Bible records that he was married. For people who claim to be founded on Peter, they seem to have went with Paul, who was celibate, yet he encouraged marriage to avoid adultery. Go figure.

Many of the early Popes had families, and at least one Pope was the son of another. Read Peter Tremayne's historical novels of Ireland, circa 600, where he deals with Rome becoming the center of Christianity, and enforcing celibacy.

God bless

Pen

Yes, at a certain time they imposed it. According to Wikipedia (referenced) celibacy for priests became only mandatory in the 12th century. Around the time that the Cardinal Sins were defined and everything became more centralised in an attempt to present a united front towards Islam. But it also says (referenced) that another reason for it might have been that the church did not want offspring from priests demanding church-property. Now, that would be a more worldly and cunning reason to demand celibacy.
I suppose it made things easier for the church?

That said, though, maybe the distractions of daily life with a sexual partner bcome less persistant when celibate, but whether that is scientifically provable is another matter. I don't think it is measurable... On the other hand, Anglican priests also can be married, so it does not really add up...