Burka

[Mr Endon]

Nightshade, thanks for taking time to answer my question. I now know that it's part of a rite of passage, and sure I already knew it's deeply imbedded in your culture.

However, just because it's a 'tradition' doesn't mean it's not founded on wrong ideals. Wait, let me retrace my steps. The thing is, I'm very keen on human rights. And that's why I now view traditions, all traditions, with suspicion. For instance, back when the Bible was written there was a mentality which is completely different from today's. Women had little or no rights. There were slaves. Etc, etc. So naturally I distrust whatever they propound. Just like the Greek democracy. They had slaves! I think we should bear the past in mind always, but mostly look forward, not backwards. Not follow the Bible, the Qu'ran, or whichever other millenar text, blindly, because the mindset was completely different and so its authority in morality and law-making evaporates like so much water in a frying pan.

Other than that,

'Global imperialism and the infallible belief that too many people have that because they are happy in their way of life then obviously anyone who doesn't live the same way as them simply cant be happy.'

I didn't say they are unhappy. I'm just saying that I have a problem when a culture is based on principles that were created when men were naturally considered better than women. And don't tell me I'm prejudiced against the Eastern culture. For example, in Western societies it's always been more acceptable for a man to have an affair than a woman. It has. Of course that now that's changing (see 'Sex and the City' phenomenon), but it's a remnant of a male-oriented culture which we are every day trying to disentangle ourselves from.

'the only effective way to ban it would be to ban all personal religious symbols from ALL religions'

There are two problems with this.

First, that's exactly what has been enforced in French schools. Not only Eastern symbols but cruxifixes, etc, have been banned.

Second, you said yourself that it's more a cultural than religious symbol. You should choose which it is for clarity's sake.

That being said, I agree that banning it is irresponsible and wrong. But I dislike the burqa as I dislike any cultural symbol, Western of Eastern, that has no place in current society, that is a remnant of a time when women were downtrodden. (of course we must perserve our cultures, that's very important indeed; but I'd prefer maintaining the elements of my culture that don't reinforce a notion of gender superiority. Like, say, the Christmas tree, that's pretty harmless.)

I'm sorry, I know you've written about how it's not a symbol of the subjugation of women, and I read it full of expectation and interest, but saying that it's a tradition that has good intentions is not enough to convince me of its harmlessness. There is a different treatment of women and men, that's unquestionable - women are encouraged to wear it, men are not. Now what we have to see is where does the difference lie, if in men's favour or in women's favour. And I think it's obvious.

[Nightshade]

Nightshade, thanks for taking time to answer my question. I now know that it's part of a rite of passage, and sure I already knew it's deeply imbedded in your culture.

However, just because it's a 'tradition' doesn't mean it's not founded on wrong ideals.

very much a true point here. Also if you were to get into an argument with a muslim one you could heavily back up with quranic quotes.

Wait, let me retrace my steps. The thing is, I'm very keen on human rights. And that's why I now view traditions with suspicion. For instance, back when the Bible was written there was a mentality which is completely different from today's. Women had little or no rights. There were slaves. Etc, etc. So naturally I distrust whatever they propound. Just like the Greek democracy. They had slaves! I think we should bear the past in mind always, but mostly look forward, not backwards. Not follow the Bible, the Qu'ran, or whichever other millenar text, blindly, because the Zeitgeist was completely different and so its authority in morality and law-making evaporates like so much water in a frying pan.

Again granted, people shouldn't follow anything blindly, if you do then you are stepping away from choice and into indoctrination.

'Global imperialism and the infallible belief that too many people have that because they are happy in their way of life then obviously anyone who doesn't live the same way as them simply cant be happy.'

I didn't say they are unhappy. I'm just saying that theirs is a culture that is based on principles that were created when men were naturally considered better than women. And don't tell me I'm prejudiced against the Eastern culture. For example, in Western societies it's somehow more acceptable for a man to have an affair than a woman. It is. Of course that now that's changing (see 'Sex and the City' phenomenon), but it's a remnant of a male-oriented culture which we are every day trying to unglue ourselves from.

Ok this is my problem I dont understand why people want to fix something that isnt broken, if people are happy with the way things are and they have the choice to change should they choose to, then why must we constantly choose to judge the way they live? If they are happy then live and let live, and if they arent happy then external pushing isnt going to do much to change it. What they need to do is to make up their own minds about what they want to do and try and do it themselves, if they then choose to accept external help then good and well, other wise telling people what they should or shouldnt do is patronising.
I need to add that it isnt aimed at you or anyone else I am just completing the train of thought.

'the only effective way to ban it would be to ban all personal religious symbols from ALL religions'

There are many problems with this.

First, that's exactly what has been enforced in French schools. Not only Eastern symbols but cruxifixes etc etc have been banned.

yes well then what is the issue? if everyone is treated equally no one has the right to complain yes of course if they ban the rest the hijab, burka and all should also be banned.

Second, you said yourself that it's more a cultural than religious symbol.

I did say that that is the stance of my own religious branch and that some branches of the religion see it as necessary, its like blocking all types of Christians together. We all believe different things , there isnt quaranic support of it but many branches of islam only have the quran as part of the core of beliefs ( all of them incorporate it to a degree or other but they're are differnt things that also factor in). I should have said that as well as being cultural also the belief in its religious importance is equally cultural. Some cultures belive it is a nesseary extetion of faith some people dont.

That being said, I agree that banning it is irresponsible and wrong. But I dislike the burqa as I dislike any cultural symbol, Western of Eastern, that has no place in current society, that is a remnant of a time when women were downtrodden. Of course we must perserve our cultures, that's very important indeed; but I'd prefer maintaining the elements of my culture that don't reinforce a notion of gender superiority. Like, say, the Christmas tree, that's pretty harmless.

Yes well thats the issue even should that occur if the gender superiority issues are present , I am not saying anything about that either way, then just removing one obvious image is not going to revolutionise things, what you are really after is a feminist movement of sorts, but it hasnt happened yet in many of those cultures, they will get their eventually that I do believe but trying to hurry them isnt helping matters, something as big and as dramatic and as fundamentally cultural altering as a full blown feminist movement is going to take a good long while to reach its peak. Lets not forget the routes of the western feminist movement were well and truly laid by 1792. At least I hope so else I am going to look a right idiot but that was the year the vindication of the rights of women was published.

Then again I would like to point out way back at the begining I said I couldnt defend the burka because I didnt understand it and I was just trying to put forth the other side the pro side that is of the argument.

[weltanschauung]

And you are precluding the fact that most hijab wearers LOVE wearing a hijab and that many niqab wearers feel the same.

And I am not going down the road of western perception of vs Eastern/ middle eastern perception, Global imperialism and the infallible belief that too many people have that because they are happy in their way of life then obviously anyone who doesn't live the same way as them simply cant be happy. That's kind of like me saying atheists simply cant be happy with their 'ridiculous ' set of beliefs (please note the Parenthesis I a m not saying that is my stand Im just trying to point out a similar kind of intolerance that people may more readily recognise for what it is ) . Its intolerant. And there lies the heart of the answer regarding banning of the burka in western countries.
I dont support or even pretend to say I would ever contemplate covering my face or wearing a burka on a regular basis, I have occasionally been in situations that called for it and not to wear it would be an insult to the culture I was surrounded by at the time. And thats fine.
Equally I acknowledge the fact that while not all branches of Islam believe the same thing from my religious view point wearing it is pointless and ridiculous and in western societies serves no purpose but to alienate and intimidate people, and that anyone who lives in a western society and chooses to wear one needs to seriously consider all implications before going down that road. And YES, I personally think you should be expected to be allowed to teach tiny kids who are not used to it if you cover your face. High Schoolers maybe, but primary and reception kids? No.

I do think however this is where the 'Great Western Democracy' comes unstuck. By Banning what people see as an act of faith you are effectively breaking your own laws and producing a climate of intolerance. Like I said earlier, the only effective way to ban it would be to ban all personal religious symbols from ALL religions, this would include the 'in god we trust' thing from American money and all other all state related symbols of faith, all Jewish symbols of faith, The christian women who cover their hair with blue scarves ( Are they the Latter day saints, The Mormons or the Jehovah's witnesses?- we have all three churches in town) crosses, pentagrams, crystals, prayer beads and worry beads.... you see where I am going with this. We would have to create a completely outwardly faith homogeneous society, and all faith and belief would have to be completely personal and private and confined to a person's home. Then again the other point I made earlier was that many women will only be separated from their hijabs and niqabs and such by Physical force, not the threat of it but by actual physical force. And who wants to live in that kind of society? The ultimate police-nanny state that decides it knows best and if you don't do as you are told we will just force you to do it anyway?

i see what youre saying, but that is absolutely not the point, come on!
pentagrams, crystals, prayer beads, worry beads and all these artifacts dont have the same connotation of a burka and youre absolutely stretching your argument. its fine you think like that and i dont care to change your mind, but i am really sorry that you dont realise what a burka stands for.
and i dont think they should ban this or that. i just hope all women at some point or another will refuse to let men run their lives.

what are men like in a place where women are only safe behind this!?


women are not lepers!

[Scheherazade]

Ok this is my problem I dont understand why people want to fix something that isnt broken, if people are happy with the way things are and they have the choice to change should they choose to, then why must we constantly choose to judge the way they live?

The thing is that it is broken, Nightshade.

Imagine a worldwide company which exploits their workers and the environment in some parts of the world and not so in some other parts. Would you feel at ease buying the products from this company and say, "Oh, well... The one I have bought comes from the factories where there is no exploitation of the workers or the environment."? In my opinion, such a purchase would be a plain endorsement of all the exploitations of the company.

Sometimes in life, we do need to make a choice and pick a side, I am afraid. In my opion, again, the burka is one of those matters. Because there are millions of women all around the world who are forced or tricked into wearing burkas and other religious tools and symbols of oppression, wearing one, even out of choice, is, in a way, disregarding the sufferings and troubles of those women who are not doing it out of choice. For most of these women, it is not only about burka, is it? It is the tip of the iceberg, so to speak. They are forced to wear burkas as well as being turned down from schools or workplaces; refused the right to vote or even the right to choose their own husbands.

It is easy to say that one is wearing burka or hijab out of choice while living in a democratic country, enjoying the equal opportunities that are available to all, but, Nightshade, would you still be willing if wearing burka meant you have lost your civil rights, locked in a house as the third wife of a "chosen-for-you-husband"?

I, personally, would not consider wearing or sanctioning items similar to burka until the day I know beyond any doubt that every single female who wears it does so purely out of their own personal choice and will, without losing their civil rights while doing so.

As for the Page 3 girls and their outfits... That is another extreme I do not, personally, approve of, which is why you cannot find me sporting similar outfits in the streets.

[Nightshade]

Imagine a worldwide company which exploits their workers and the environment in some parts of the world and not so in some other parts. Would you feel at ease buying the products from this company and say, "Oh, well... The one I have bought comes from the factories where there is no exploitation of the workers or the environment."? In my opinion, such a purchase would be a plain endorsement of all the exploitations of the company.

I, personally, would not consider wearing or sanctioning items similar to burka until the day I know beyond any doubt that every single female who wears it does so purely out of their own personal choice and will, without losing their civil rights while doing so.

Ok I think I get it, and since I wholeheartedly agree with the first point I can concede the second point. I still won't be taking off my hijab any time soon but I seen the rightness in your argument. But to play devil's advocate , wouldnt that be conceding defeat in a way? By giving up something that in its original conception was an honor because because misogynistic bigoted high handed idiots, aren't they winning? Aren't we sending the message that we can't be who we are what we are and be free so we have to abandon a part of ourselves and change becuase you won't so that we can have some measure of freedom.

I think the main thing that gets me, is that even if they banned all the burkas in the world you still wouldnt free women from oppression in these kinds of communities, its a lot more insidious than that, And so when we ban the burka just because they look less oppressed are we all going to turn away rub our hands and say thats done now who else can we fix?

By all means if we ant to fix these womens problems lets try but lets get to the root of it and not just a symptom of it.

[weltanschauung]

well, to cure a disease you have to treat the symptoms, do you not?

wouldnt that be conceding defeat in a way? By giving up something that in its original conception was an honor because because misogynistic bigoted high handed idiots, aren't they winning? Aren't we sending the message that we can't be who we are what we are and be free so we have to abandon a part of ourselves and change becuase you won't so that we can have some measure of freedom.

oxymoron.
by rejecting a degrating condition you embrace the opressors?
that makes no sense AT ALL.

[Nightshade]

well, to cure a disease you have to treat the symptoms, do you not?

Actually no. You need to attack the cause of the symptoms rather than the side affects which are the symptoms. Else you can end up masking a very dangerous disease. Eliminating the symptoms should be a side affect of curing the disease rather than the way to curing it.

[Saladin]

very much a true point here. Also if you were to get into an argument with a muslim one you could heavily back up with quranic quotes.

Well that depends on which madhab and fiqh that muslim follows. The reality is as i wrote earlier there is nothing in islamic scriptures which says that muslim womens should wear burqa or niqaab for that sake. There is some madhabs as you probably know which says its "wajib" (recommended), but that thats not the same as something being fard (mandatory) as you know.

Its not either favourable to wear it in the West according some muslim clerics/ulema. So this discussion is merely based on what goes on in some muslim-dominated societies.


This is meant to everyone else which have been active in this thread:

From a fiqh-perspective this discussion is not that important.

The saddest part with this discussion is that non-muslim Westerners (not all of them) are always debating out from a premise that are based on their cultural background. I doubt that there is some of us muslims that are debating in this thread which are clearly denying that there is some womens that are forced to wear those garments (its irrelevant if its hijab or burqa or jalabib for that sake). I am first of all speaking for myself, but if i did deny it it would not only be ridiculous but also very naive of me.

To use force in religion is something which is clearly prohibted in islam. Both in religious upbringing and in religious practice. There is something called niyyah (intentions) in islam. To force a person to for instance to pray the five daily obligatory prayers or wear hijab or fast during Ramadan is stupidity.

The muslim theolog and polymath Al-Ghazali said In order to know yourself, you have to know God. If you dont know yourself you clearly dont know God. If there is no intentions in your rites or prayer or religious practice as whole, there is no use to do what you do. This argument is against those fundamentalistic muslim groups like Taliban or the regime in KSA or the regime in Iran which force people to act according islamic rules. Most of their understanding of islam is based on subjective intrepretations, ergo it doesnt necessarily mean its correct.

That being said, I agree that banning it is irresponsible and wrong. But I dislike the burqa as I dislike any cultural symbol, Western of Eastern, that has no place in current society, that is a remnant of a time when women were downtrodden. (of course we must perserve our cultures, that's very important indeed; but I'd prefer maintaining the elements of my culture that don't reinforce a notion of gender superiority. Like, say, the Christmas tree, that's pretty harmless.)

I totally agree with you on this. I myself dislike the burqa also.

[Nightshade]

Well that depends on which madhab and fiqh that muslim follows. The reality is as i wrote earlier there is nothing in islamic scriptures which says that muslim womens should wear burqa or niqaab for that sake. There is some madhabs as you probably know which says its "wajib" (recommended), but that thats not the same as something being fard (mandatory) as you know.

Its not either favourable to wear it in the West according some muslim clerics/ulema. So this discussion is merely based on what goes on in some muslim-dominated societies.

I wasnt referring to hijabs etc, I was referring to the blindly following traditions. and the ayahs about we found our fathers and fore fathers doing this so we do it, without thinking as it is obviously right. I think most of them are found in conjunction with Stories of Abraham but I think there might be a reference in relation to Noah and at least one in relation to Quraysh.

[Saladin]

I wasnt referring to hijabs etc, I was referring to the blindly following traditions. and the ayahs about we found our fathers and fore fathers doing this so we do it, without thinking as it is obviously right. I think most of them are found in conjunction with Stories of Abraham but I think there might be a reference in relation to Noah and at least one in relation to Quraysh.

Shukran for the clarification. It seems like i misunderstood.

[weltanschauung]

Actually no. You need to attack the cause of the symptoms rather than the side affects which are the symptoms. Else you can end up masking a very dangerous disease. Eliminating the symptoms should be a side affect of curing the disease rather than the way to curing it.

thats exactly what ive been saying all this time, but youre kind of not getting it.

so lets not do anything about the burkas, and the maiming of african girls' genitals, and all these "symptoms" that are not a problem at all. if you get a fever from a flu, you can die if you get too hot. but not lets not do anything about the fever, because that is not the disease.

you dont even realise the contradiction in your argument, because youre trying to defend a prejucide that is part of your routine since letting it go would be losing a part of yourself. and youre accustomed to it because it makes you who you are, so obviously you need to defend this part of yourself.

i also dont think a man can look at this from the same point of view, specially a muslim man, because they live in a comfortable situation, and they always have. men in general do.
giving back up text from whatever source is not proving anything, what happens in theory is VERY different from what we see in practice.

[Scheherazade]

F i n a l W a r n i n g

Posts that do not directly deal with the issue at hand

or

show intolerance/disrespect towards others' beliefs will be deleted without further notice.

Please discuss the topic, not each other.

[kilted exile]

firstly quoting myself from a long gone & locked thread cos I cant be bothered re-typing it:

I have no issue with people personally choosing what they want to wear, some women may feel liberated wearing a hijab, some may feel liberated wearing a halter top, 6" skirt & high heels, others may feel liberated plastering their exposed breasts all over page 3. So long as it is an issue of personal choice, I cant see why anyone should have a problem with what a person decides to wear.

Next on to more specific points relating to this area of discussion - too many people are looking at this as a black and white issue. Like everything else it is not. Sure there are some women who may be forced to wear the hijab, burka, or niqab. There are however also a large number (I would hazard to guess the majority in "non-islamic" countries) who freely choose to do so. To remove their right to wear a symbol of their culture (or religion depending on the individual belief of the wearer) is frankly stupid.

[The Atheist]

I, personally, would not consider wearing or sanctioning items similar to burka until the day I know, beyond any doubt, that every single female who wears it does so purely out of their own personal choice and will, without losing their civil rights while doing so.

One of the best posts it's ever been my privilege to read.

As for the Page 3 girls and their outfits... That is another extreme I do not, personally, approve of, which is why you cannot find me sporting similar outfits in the streets.

What??/

Play fair! Get down to those undies!

[qimissung]

My regards to Nightshade, Saladin and Scher who stated their positions with such clarity; and to Welt, for his passion that all people be treated equally.

It seems to me that nowadays the burqa has become a symbol for subjugation. I still think that if it is clearly the woman's choice, then she should be allowed to wear it. I'm thinking at this point of France, where this issue has come up. Religious symbols should not be outlawed; it is one thing to outlaw something that is overt in it's denial of someone's "rights", but quite another to outlaw something that in another country is a subjugation of rights.