It comes down to manners...what happened to those pesky things. When we had manners we did not point out that what someone was wearing didn't look right...because it wasn't our business to.
Respect others, respect yourselves and understand that some are without the power to make choices for themselves. We should not condemn them for this, but rather continue to offer support and respect.
My last two cents, I agree with Nightshade I think this topic is done for now.
~L
I'd rather have questions that I can't answer than answers that I can't question.
Point taken. I'm quite aware of the clash, hence my mental disarray. But have you considered that Human Rights are arranged in a hierarchy? By this a judge I know means that 'freedom to wear what you like' is less important that 'equality between men and women'.Originally Posted by Taliesin
I do not wish to pursue this argument, but it's worth a thought.
I don't believe that criminalising the wearing of the burka in the West is ever going to do any good. My solution would be to educate muslim children about the Koran (London has opened such a facility, the Courrier International tells me). The funny thing is, the burka is not mentioned in the Koran at all. Also, tell them that the idea underlining the burka is that women are temptation personified and ought to be covered so that men are decent.
(by the way, the idea that they impose the burka because their women are 'special' is for me like saying that the wardens keep the prisoners locked up in jail because they are special)
So.
No criminalisation, but education.
Problem solved! I can trouble my mind with more inane matters now.
Last edited by Mr Endon; 08-02-2009 at 07:56 AM.
I am still alive then. That may come in useful.
Molloy
Seriously I can't really understand how allowing burqa goes against the equality of men and women. When a woman is in burqa it doesn't necessarily mean she has been forced to wear it.
Burqa being a hindrance in some specific careers (like teaching young children where facial expressions are necessary) is another topic of debate though. I just have trouble digesting this equality-inequality argument.
Last edited by Pensive; 08-02-2009 at 07:29 PM.
I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew.
its hard to discuss a problem when everyone keeps trying to deny that the problem exists.
Is it a problem?
limajean, it is. I'll give you an extreme example, for which I'm sure to be burned at the stake for demagogy but which illustrates well what I mean: imagine someone using a KKK costume, perhaps even not having an idea what it stands for.
Pensive, for me it's simple to get at the conclusion that it stands for unequality of women.
First you must observe the following: men don't wear it, only women do.
Then you must ask yourself, why must women wear like this?
Then you must see what happens if a girl wears a short skirt and a tank top in a theocratic country. What happens is that the moral police come and (let's leave the executions out of this) tell them it's inappropriate.
Why is that? Because it tempts men who are trying to be virtuous and could use without the distractions.
Women are not seen as equals. A cursory look at the holy text and laws tells you that much. For example, why can a man indulge in polygyny and a woman can't? Why must the woman not address other man unless she is spoken to (this one I'm not sure of though)? Also, I'd reccommend you to look at Qur'an, 4:34, where man's superiority is explicit. (Not that the Old Testament's any better in that respect). And the burqa is just the right garment to embody this mindset.
A burqa, or whatever you might call it, is thus a symbol of modesty, and it is basically enforced by the culture so that that vicious, troublesome thing, female sexuality, may be harnessed.
I wouldn't ban it, I wouldn't. But of course I would be allowed to judge if I saw someone dressed like that in say my home country. My assumption would be merely this, that she thinks herself inferior to men - which she, no doubt, does. And it would sadden me, of course, to see that in my home country. I would think of a whole century of suffragette movement, of virtuous struggle for equality, being flushed down the drain, or at least contemptuously dismissed by them.
I am still alive then. That may come in useful.
Molloy
Has anybody read Nighties posts?
Do, or do not. There is no try. - Yoda
Well I did at the time they were written, but I don't remember her having answered directly this question. I'm sure she must have, though. Right now I don't have the time to read through the thread carefully, so Nightshade, if you could give me a succint rebuttal of the idea that burkas are a symbol of male superiority over women I'd appreciate it. I understand it if you don't have time for that as well, in which case I'll have to come back and read this more carefully later and perhaps my point of view will be different then.
Last edited by Mr Endon; 08-03-2009 at 01:00 PM. Reason: forgot the word 'written'
I am still alive then. That may come in useful.
Molloy
W a r n i n g
Posts that do not directly deal with the issue at hand
or
show intolerance/disrespect towards others' beliefs will be deleted without further notice.
~
"It is not that I am mad; it is only that my head is different from yours.”
~
This were actually a very interesting discussion. As a muslim i find this discussion actually for being a bit irrelevant since there is nothing in islamic scriptures which actually says a muslim women should wear burqa. Most of what i would probably write have already been written by Nighshade, ergo i agree with her.
Its not mandatory at all for muslim womens to use burqa nor niqaab. The last garment depends on which madhab (islamic school of thought) the person follows.
Hijab is according most muslim clerics mandatory - but that is when the the girl reach puberty - becomes a woman. And it shouldnt be forced on the individual at any circumstances. The women must choose freely to wear hijab. Since in islam every religious act is based on the individuals intentions. If you force individuals to be "more" pious it will be stupidity since there is lack of intentions.
Not necessarily. as long its a free choice. The problem is when people get forced to wear it like Taliban and some other religious nutcase groups have done (mostly islamists)/
But then again to be honest i havent personally even though i have lived in the West most of my life seen a muslim women wearing a burqa. I have seen niqaab, but not burka. Its over-exaggerated.
Always do that, wild ducks do. They shoot to the bottom as deep as they can get, sir — and bite themselves fast in the tangle and seaweed — and all the devil's own mess that grows down there. And they never come up again. - The Wild Duck, Henrik Ibsen.
"The idea of the hijab the modesty etc is all tied into beauty rather than disgust . The more beautiful you are the more you cover up.
Which is why in places lie Egypt the older women when they get to about 60 will stop weraing teh hijab because they say they are hardly going to be what is the word... not attrative or alluring ."
This seems a bit odd to me. It is like turning all the good paintings to the wall and having only the bad ones on view. I cannot believe that beautiful people are harmed in any way by being seen, or that anyone can be harmed by seeing something beautiful. Of course, if beauty is seen as a commodity, a possession, then the possessor is entitled to ration it out - but that seems pretty mean, since the beauty does not diminish however many people view it.
Voices mysterious far and near,
Sound of the wind and sound of the sea,
Are calling and whispering in my ear,
Whifflingpin! Why stayest thou here?
It is really too complex a thing to be succinct about but the main points are :
1) choosing to take 'the veil' ( hijab included ) does not represent subduction or oppression it represents putting aside childhood and accepting responsibility and a place in society as a coherent sound in mind and body able to have opinions voice them and that they in turn count member of society. It symbolise that a woman is old enough to control her own money and affairs as well as to marry. Boys in Islam are not that lucky, there is no defining symbol of adulthood no big right of passage ( well that I know of but having no brothers I don't know maybe I am missing something?) Someone is going to now bring up the fact that they have seen children wearing hijabs, yes I know its weird and I cant get my head around it or find any form of justification for it except maybe the fact that the idea is if you get them used to wearing it THAT you they dont feel the burden of it so much as they get older, mind I think that is defeating the object of the whole point of the exercise, but like Ive said before its more cultural than religious anyways.
2) Its really very culturally rooted one of those bizarre habits that make no real sense to outsiders but makes perfect sense to the participants ( and really that is all that matters most of the time, or at least till they up an take their habits into other peoples house then the upsets begin) Male superiority doesnt come into it. Thats a pretty feminist- post feminist Idea, and you cant use one cultures norms to measure another. It cant be done and I wouldn't even bother trying.
Like I said its a very culturally centric view and even then not everyone n the culture shares it, but that was the main idea of the thing 1420 odd years ago. And ok I was skirting one of the main points I want to say first though though it is alot less obvious the same rules apply for men and the hijab as said before is an add on the existed in the arbian culture before isalm. The modesty thing? and hiding your beauties thing? It really boils down to one simple rule Do not deliberately try and tempt people (male or female) so you are no supposed to go around in skin tight clothes baring all manner of skin. . Some people took this to an extreme ( much the way of Victorians and table legs) and decided mean were tempted by everything so lets just cover the lot up to be on the safe side. Because the rest of the rule goes, you deliberately try and get someones i don't know what the right word is here sexual attention (??) and they are not married to you , then you are getting double sin points. But like asiad though most people conveniently forget it the rule also applied to men very much so.
Anyway what I have been trying to say all along is that I never said it couldnt be used as a tool against women I am just saying that most everything can, but that in its proper application it isnt and shouldnt be seen as such. I mean hello how is dressing like a page 3 model not demeening? but thats ok because its obvious that its her choice so why is a hijab or even a niquab any different.
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a sign of female adulthood is hiding your face, your body, your hair?
it makes sense, who said it doesnt. it makes perfect sense.
women are supposed to, in adulthood, hide themselves in order not to tempt men, because they are too pure. it has nothing to do with male superiority, in fact. it has to do with inferiority, since they cant control their ravishing desire for women.
makes perfect sense.
lets all hide ourselves under burkas so we wont be raped. lets lock ourselves in our houses so we wont be robbed. lets not drive so that people wont crash into our cars, lets not get jobs so we wont get fired. i see this logic.
there is no proper aplication for "traditions" of this sort. And it is and should be seen as such.
dressing like a page 3 model is not demeaning because she LOVES doing so and is getting paid for it also.
eating brocolis is a choice, not covering your SELF.
And you are precluding the fact that most hijab wearers LOVE wearing a hijab and that many niqab wearers feel the same.
And I am not going down the road of western perception of vs Eastern/ middle eastern perception, Global imperialism and the infallible belief that too many people have that because they are happy in their way of life then obviously anyone who doesn't live the same way as them simply cant be happy. That's kind of like me saying atheists simply cant be happy with their 'ridiculous ' set of beliefs (please note the Parenthesis I a m not saying that is my stand Im just trying to point out a similar kind of intolerance that people may more readily recognise for what it is ) . Its intolerant. And there lies the heart of the answer regarding banning of the burka in western countries.
I dont support or even pretend to say I would ever contemplate covering my face or wearing a burka on a regular basis, I have occasionally been in situations that called for it and not to wear it would be an insult to the culture I was surrounded by at the time. And thats fine.
Equally I acknowledge the fact that while not all branches of Islam believe the same thing from my religious view point wearing it is pointless and ridiculous and in western societies serves no purpose but to alienate and intimidate people, and that anyone who lives in a western society and chooses to wear one needs to seriously consider all implications before going down that road. And YES, I personally think you should be expected to be allowed to teach tiny kids who are not used to it if you cover your face. High Schoolers maybe, but primary and reception kids? No.
I do think however this is where the 'Great Western Democracy' comes unstuck. By Banning what people see as an act of faith you are effectively breaking your own laws and producing a climate of intolerance. Like I said earlier, the only effective way to ban it would be to ban all personal religious symbols from ALL religions, this would include the 'in god we trust' thing from American money and all other all state related symbols of faith, all Jewish symbols of faith, The christian women who cover their hair with blue scarves ( Are they the Latter day saints, The Mormons or the Jehovah's witnesses?- we have all three churches in town) crosses, pentagrams, crystals, prayer beads and worry beads.... you see where I am going with this. We would have to create a completely outwardly faith homogeneous society, and all faith and belief would have to be completely personal and private and confined to a person's home. Then again the other point I made earlier was that many women will only be separated from their hijabs and niqabs and such by Physical force, not the threat of it but by actual physical force. And who wants to live in that kind of society? The ultimate police-nanny state that decides it knows best and if you don't do as you are told we will just force you to do it anyway?
My mission in life is to make YOU smile
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"The time has come," the Walrus said,"To talk of many things:
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This is an excellent point, bringing out what it really means for a woman to do what she wants, and begs the question of why it might be that she has come to want to do that...
I'm thinking that, just as women shouldn't wear bikinis in a bank, perhaps some Muslim societies (such as Saudi Arabia) might someday move toward relaxing burka requirements as certain activities acquire new levels of acceptability (such as driving a car, becoming a doctor, selling lingerie, whatever...).
It's not my place, but I can't help but wonder if women wearing burkas on the sidewalks might someday be able to reveal their faces in certain situations, and have fatwas to back them up, or whatever...
Anyhow, it's more the driving and working in certain professions that seems to be an issue, as far as I'm concerned. It is difficult for me to accept that women should be restricted so much, but I also see that some evolution in attitudes in certain areas might be healthier than an outright assault on tradition in general.
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