Truth in religion

[transcender]

Hi fellow travelers.

I started researching the origins of religions and became disappointed with the results I found. Per se: That truthfulness and rationality in religions are only the truths that can be substantiated by science or those that cannot be proven to be incorrect. I believe that spiritual transcendence and spiritual interaction, if one believes this to be an actuality, could only be possible between the spiritual existence and the "spirit" of man. Supernatural acts performed by physical or spiritual beings in the physical universe are not capable of existing or transpiring.

Your thoughts hereon are appreciated.

[Buh4Bee]

Hi fellow travelers.

I started researching the origins of religions and became disappointed with the results I found. Per se: That truthfulness and rationality in religions are only the truths that can be substantiated by science or those that cannot be proven to be incorrect. I believe that spiritual transcendence and spiritual interaction, if one believes this to be an actuality, could only be possible between the spiritual existence and the "spirit" of man. Supernatural acts performed by physical or spiritual beings in the physical universe are not capable of existing or transpiring.

I don't know why there has been no responded to this. I think this has been a topic that has been argued about ad nauseam on the forum already. So I'll just make a few points.

I suppose you don't believe in this concept of transcendentalism, because science can't prove that the supernatural or God exists? Who can argue with you? Atheist or agnostic, by any chance?

I know that the American Transcendentalists (Emerson and Thoreau and few others) believed that to find true wisdom one must seek the guidance of the Christian God. I believe this must have occurred through deep prayer, such as one may find at the level of meditation.

I personally believe, which you may already know about me , that this kind of experience is possible, but only through a committed and disciplined practice of religion. This is not about science, this is about a personal lifestyle choice. No argument or rationality from science can convince a believe otherwise. If one has faith, then God is most likely real.

[LMK]

Let me ask, can anything really be proven? Is it possible that a thing is accepted because it has not yet been dis-proven.

If 1+1=2, is this a fact? Has it been proven? What if the fact is that is simply has not been disproven. What if additional information is added...

...what if 1 represented an irrational number?

...what if one of the 1's stood for a length of yarn in my sewing box and the other for a crate of oranges I saw at the supermarket? Then I do not have 2 of anything, do I?

One might assume that if I set a book down on a table that I have used to set books on before, that the table will again support the weight of the book. Perhaps this is only a recurring hypothesis.

Just wondering about possibilities...

~L

[Buh4Bee]

So are you saying that we need to disprove the existence of God in order to prove that he does not exist. Is this the possibility you are asking about?

[LMK]

I am suggesting that is an alternative to stating that a thing doesn't exist because it cannot be proven.

[Buh4Bee]

How lively and delightful to suggest such an optimistic spin on the usual negative outcome of this particular argument.

Yes, that is why you stated you were wondering about possibilities!!

Thanks for the clarification.

So if God can't be proven, where does that leave us. My minister said, God is wonderous and we don't know.

[LMK]

...hmmm...where does that leave us...

I suppose if a thing cannot be (or to date has not yet been) proven and at the same time the thing has not yet been (or cannot be) disproven, then the thing remains a possibiity.

If there is the possibility that God exists then we can explore further without fear of compromising 'truth' if one needs to apply a scientific bent to the discussion.

However, if we do not fear that science and religion can be inclusive of each other (or that they are not mutually exclusive) then we can explore to our heart's content regardless and let beliefs and opinions and faith be our anchor and the lights along our path.

~L

[Buh4Bee]

Thank you for your clear and concise ideas. Here's what I have to say:

It's well explained what you say, but there is no truth needed to be found if you have faith and believe. Truth is for those that need proof or a scientific explanation. However, as a side note, I can't disregard all the devout scholars that have offered up "proof" of God.

This is my previous point: that faith is a lifestyle choice, a personal belief system. There is no need to think about the possibility of God. One has faith and believes- this is what transcendentalism is. You take the leap of faith, because you no longer doubt. You are willing to accept wisdom and guidance from God, because he is all things.

I don't think our opinions are too divergent, but I just wanted to clarify what I meant. I do believe that science and religion should be joined more closely. I would not be surprised if this did occur in the future.

[RichardHresko]

...hmmm...where does that leave us...

I suppose if a thing cannot be (or to date has not yet been) proven and at the same time the thing has not yet been (or cannot be) disproven, then the thing remains a possibiity.

If there is the possibility that God exists then we can explore further without fear of compromising 'truth' if one needs to apply a scientific bent to the discussion.

However, if we do not fear that science and religion can be inclusive of each other (or that they are not mutually exclusive) then we can explore to our heart's content regardless and let beliefs and opinions and faith be our anchor and the lights along our path.

~L

I believe that you are correct that science and religion (or philosophy) are not mutually exclusive since they do not really cover the same territory.

Religion and philosophy, when properly understood, deal with certain key matters, such as the nature of reality, what is humankind's place in it, what we can know, and how we can know it.

Science is NOT, as some would have it, the study of what is "real," but rather the way we come to understand interactions in the physical world. In other words, it is a suitable way to figure out HOW things happen, not WHY or SHOULD. Science is unequipped to answer the question of what "real' means in a metaphysical sense. It can tell us how physical things interact, but not whether there is anything that is not physical.

One bad misinterpretation of science is the faith-based doctrine one might label strict or radical materialism, which makes the fatal error of assuming that lack of scientific proof of something constitutes evidence that something does not exist.

That this type doctrine is unsupportable is readily evident, given the tendency of such believers to tout that their weltanschauung is based on simple ideas such as "reality is real," which is nothing more than a tautology when correctly understood, and hides the assumption that only material things are real when improperly used.

Because strict materialism is a doctrine rather than a properly thought-out system it can not tolerate dissension. It also must react against any thoughtful realization that an honest willingness to accept that some things may either not be knowable or may not have a meaningful set answer is legitimate.

The willingness to accept that no single system does nor needs to provide ALL the answers is the hallmark of a mature mind and leagues away from dogmatism of whatever stripe.

[LMK]

Yes, Jersea, I think we do agree on the whole of it, but I might use different wording.

My comments about proof were only to the opening post who mentions, proof, truth, science etc. so I was trying to lay some ground work to allow even a scientifically set mind to discuss religion in a rational manner with regard to its truths.

I t would be great if faith were enough to cause one to base one’s lifestyle upon and I commend those who do, and pray for those who do not.

I am reminded of a story that was circulated some time ago that exaggerates but clarifies what I mean by saying that I don’t think all those who have faith live by it.

* * * * * * Story

A man was being tailgated by a stressed out woman on a busy boulevard. Suddenly, the light turned yellow, just in front of him. He did the right thing, stopping at the crosswalk, even though he could have beaten the red light by accelerating through the intersection.


The tailgating woman was furious and honked her horn, screaming in frustration, as she missed her chance to get through the intersection, dropping her cell phone and makeup.


As she was still in mid-rant, she heard a tap on her window and looked up into the face of a very serious police officer. The officer ordered her to exit her car with her hands up.


He took her to the police station where she was searched, fingerprinted, photographed, and placed in a holding cell. After a couple of hours, a policeman approached the cell and opened the door. She was escorted back to the booking desk where the arresting officer was waiting with her personal effects.


He said 'I'm very sorry for this mistake.' You see, I pulled up behind your car while you were blowing your horn, flipping off the guy in front of you, and cussing a blue streak at him. I noticed the 'What Would Jesus Do?' bumper sticker, the 'Choose Life!' license plate holder, the 'Follow Me to Sunday-School!' bumper stickers, and the chrome-plated Christian fish emblem on the trunk; so naturally...I assumed you had stolen the car.

[LMK]

Sorry, RichardHresko, I didn't mean to ignore your post, we must have been typing at about the same time.

I agree with your post in the open-mindedness it suggests and the flexibility that allows for possibilities.

~L

[Buh4Bee]

Awesome story and I understand your point about the use of language to establish an argument.

[blazeofglory]

In point of fact religions have been created humans and religions have at times helped us and still help in society. Of course there are so many works of charity and missionaries are run by religiously minded by people. Many religions and their followers teach benevolence, altruism and inspire many to be philanthropic.

In the mean time we know religions have, historically observed, have disadvantaged society as there were so many wars instigated by religious persons.

[LMK]

In point of fact religions have been created humans and religions have at times helped us and still help in society. Of course there are so many works of charity and missionaries are run by religiously minded by people. Many religions and their followers teach benevolence, altruism and inspire many to be philanthropic.

In the mean time we know religions have, historically observed, have disadvantaged society as there were so many wars instigated by religious persons.

Religion is what people do. It is the outward sign (or I think the intention is for it to be) of one's faith or set of beliefs.

Since what people do is people driven, it would also be true that religion is people driven, created by people. It is those who actually express their beliefs in good that create things to do in their religious houses for the sake of good.

Unfortunately, there are many who are members of various religions to either do not realy have the belief or faith (usually founded upon good) or are tempted by temporal pleasures or distractions that cause their outward expression to have nothing to do with their beliefs or the religion they might be a member of. I posted a little story about such a case.

~L

[hoope]

If we are not able to see things that doesn't deny the fact that its there, We can't see air but its there... We can't see God.. but He is there.

There are evidences on the existance of air just like how there are many evidence on the existance of God.. or else how would have all this came into being? How we were created , nothing happens sudenly nor the lapse of time can create earth & universe so perfectly . There must have been someone , and someone Great that runs everything around us.
There can be no creation without creator.

One should follow something , we were not left like this on earth... God sent many messenger to guide us .. this is why there is always a religion to follow .