Rebirth

[Mathor]

You have every right not to "accept", nor "value", nor even "respect" all those who have spend a great deal of time examining those issues and have come to conclusions that do not unfortunately confirm you own beliefs. Obviously, these risk being most of them who "happen to be scientists". But then you are not advancing the "discussion" that you say you aim in the first place, at least not in a serious and constructive manner.

Your trick about the weather is catchy but does not resist any serious examination. You see, many people have of course different tastes about the weather, but warm and cold temperature can be very easily proven empirically. Again, you are trying to merge physics and metaphysics – something that does not really serve your purposes.

Nevertheless, if Swami Vivekananda is right, then "God" does not exist, since obviously not "all people are able to feel this", nor "it's perceptible to all"…

but what about all the scientists and persons who have come up with theories similar to Nikolais? To suggest that someone is close-minded for not sharing YOUR belief when you can not give the slightest hint of respect to their beliefs makes your claims of the necessity of knowledge and understanding kind of seem farfetched.

[amarna]

I can understand lupe's weltanschauung for I am, hm, widely convinced that soul, like identity, is nothing but a product of higher brain activity, a self-image which is perceived as something persistent. But I do not expect self-images being really persistent. That's why rebirth is a strange thought to me. I find it a little difficult to understand people who believe in it and I'm sure they'll not really understand me ditto. It's like living in different universes.

[Tsuyoiko]

What about the idea that life and death are like two sides of a coin, and reflect each other and depend on each other? Or, being and non-being. This is an Eastern philosophical idea. Being and non-being are part of each other like yang and yin.

I agree that life and death are interdependent, but I wouldn't characterise it in a mystical way like that. However, I have learnt to derive some comfort from the idea of "non-being" after death.

When someone you knew very well has died how can you really believe that they are just gone? And they'll be gone forever? Or even for yourself. I can't imagine myself just melting into nothing when I die. I like to believe that my 'soul' or whatever you want to call it, will be born again. And therefore I'll continue to be in some shape or form.

My dead loved ones aren't gone as long as there's someone still alive who remembers them.

As for myself, I'd like to believe lots of things, but I think that what we'd "like to believe" is irrelevant. Whether or not there is life after death is independent of our beliefs; there is no scientific evidence to support the existence of an afterlife.

Since I can't in good conscience continue to believe in something that I see no evidence for, I have learnt to seek comfort in the idea of death being the end.

I am, hm, widely convinced that soul, like identity, is nothing but a product of higher brain activity, a self-image which is perceived as something persistent. But I do not expect self-images being really persistent. That's why rebirth is a strange thought to me. I find it a little difficult to understand people who believe in it and I'm sure they'll not really understand me ditto. It's like living in different universes.

I completely agree with you that consiousness is a product(?) (function?, emergent property?) of the brain, but it's not so hard to understand why people don't accept that. Just look at the reasons people have given on this thread for believing in a soul.

[lupe]

lupe, sir or miss, the last thing you said to me before this recent exchange was a very mean thing to say. I am not interested, thanks. Goodbye.

You started your posting in this thread by asking not to get emotional about it. Now, who gets emotional ?

And, by the way, what was the mean thing I said to you, and when ? And why you answered then to my previous post ?

but what about all the scientists and persons who have come up with theories similar to Nikolais? To suggest that someone is close-minded for not sharing YOUR belief when you can not give the slightest hint of respect to their beliefs makes your claims of the necessity of knowledge and understanding kind of seem farfetched.

Who suggested "that someone is close-minded for not sharing" his belief ? Who "can not give the slightest hint of respect to their beliefs"? Where did you read this? In which post you are referring ? Certainly not the one you quote.
Read again my posts, please; I was extremely respectful to the opposite opinions in this thread, trying on the same time to separate between the undeniable value of the metaphysic / religious beliefs and the empirical proof of their existence.

[amarna]

... it's not so hard to understand why people don't accept that. Just look at the reasons people have given on this thread for believing in a soul.

Understanding someone is imho not exactly the same as explainig the reasons for a certain way of thinking. What I meant by understanding was rather something like putting myself in an adherent's of rebirth's shoes. That's really difficult.

[Heath]

As for myself, I'd like to believe lots of things, but I think that what we'd "like to believe" is irrelevant. Whether or not there is life after death is independent of our beliefs; there is no scientific evidence to support the existence of an afterlife.

True, there is no scientific evidence to support an afterlife, and rebirth which is the afterlife that this thread is about, but there's no scientific evidence to say there is no afterlife either. Which means we could be arguing about this forever. But there are stories about ghosts, saints, past lives, heaven, and hell, and most of these have to do with an after life of some sort. And the people who talk about these range from age to race. So are these people making these stories up? Are they mad?

In fact, I have had a cousin who died a few years ago. She died of cancer and she was only 11 years old. Anyway, before her death, her parents decided to bring her on a holiday before she would die, a last present from them. But when she was on plane the girl claimed she saw someone appear on the clouds and talk to her even if the person was not in the plane. The person told her something like not to be afraid of dying and things like that. The girl never mentioned the person on the clouds to her parents until a few days before her death. And when she did her parents laughed and said she must have been seeing things or been dreaming. But the girl perfectly serious said she wasn't dreaming or lying or anything, and then she told her parents calmly that she knew she wasn't going to be with them in a few days time.

What can you make out of the story? That was exactly what the girl's parents told my parents later on. Maybe the girl was only dreaming, but that story certainly gave the parents relief and strenght to cope with the loss of their daughter.

Who suggested "that someone is close-minded for not sharing" his belief ? Who "can not give the slightest hint of respect to their beliefs"? Where did you read this? In which post you are referring ? Certainly not the one you quote.
Read again my posts, please; I was extremely respectful to the opposite opinions in this thread, trying on the same time to separate between the undeniable value of the metaphysic / religious beliefs and the empirical proof of their existence.

What you say may not seem closed minded to you, but it could to another person reading. Just saying.

[NikolaiI]

I can understand lupe's weltanschauung for I am, hm, widely convinced that soul, like identity, is nothing but a product of higher brain activity, a self-image which is perceived as something persistent. But I do not expect self-images being really persistent. That's why rebirth is a strange thought to me. I find it a little difficult to understand people who believe in it and I'm sure they'll not really understand me ditto. It's like living in different universes.

Really not so much as you'd think, Amarna. I was an atheist until I was somewhere around 17, and I was very convinced. I didn't hardly every think of the soul, I pretty much never heard anyone talk about it and I didn't believe in it, the same as I didn't believe in God and for the same reasons. The problem of evil for me was a sure sign that God didn't exist, and the fact that there was no answer to prayers, etc., it was the simplest thing in the world for me.

However, at this time in my life, I have had numerous experiences which showed me things I wouldn't have imagined. All is connected. When I first realized God was real, I was quite happy, because it fit with my reason, it was beyond reason but didn't contradict reason, it was the fulfillment thereof. I was happy because I could explain to anyone, no matter how skeptical, how I came to understand. However I have not yet been able to convince anyone, because they are like-minded as you are and I was.

The best way I can explain, and I am truly curious what I would have thought if I had encountered this earlier, is in the following way. I am a reflection of the universe. I am like a mirror. I'm part of the universe, part of everything. And yet I don't feel like this most of the time. But as I am a reflection of the whole universe, everything within it, I am no less than the whole universe. Why don't I feel this? Because my consciousness is rather limited, it never strays from preconceived notions and convicted ideas, in other words, conditioned mind. But I fortunately know now, that my own consciousness is not all there is, and there's an unlimited number of perspectives; just like in the spectrum of light there are types of light we do not see. I was able to see some of those other consciousnesses, have them for a little while.

But while now I have had those experiences, which I believe were similar or identical to some such as Black Elk or Swami Vivekananda, who both said that only when one realizes that he is at one with the whole universe, will he know peace in his soul - which is also in the Tao Te Ching - the do not deprive me of my memory of previously being an atheist, or naturalist, or materialist; whatever incorrect label you choose.

[amarna]

It was very interesting to learn something about your way of experiencing reality, Nikolai, thank you for getting a glimpse into your brain. As to me, I've never experienced or felt the slightest soupcon of spirituality, and I never was in search or in need of it. Don't know why, maybe our emotional requirements or cognitive interests are different (not better or worse, just different). Well, chacun à son goût.

[sc9108]

To be honest I think its one of those things only worth discussing with open mind,, one persons views are their own,
And what one person believes in another person well ,,, don't and it usually ends quite ugly when they don't take it light hearted !,

Religion is a very funny thing and people always argue over it, (look at the wars over it 0_0!)