ruined by interpretation

[kiki1982]

@Lokasenna:

Oh, my God! That's shocking such a misread!

I can see what you mean now...

Next time, I'll just spend a bit more time on reading... (Who knows what I misread in my books then...)

[mono]

All writers are already dead!

You might find it extremely insightful if you read the short essay by Roland Barthes "The Death of the Author". In this essay Barthes calls into question the very nature of interpretation and claims (in short) that all authors are dead upon the point of publication. Roughly what he meant by this is that the author is no better at interpreting his/her own work than a reader, upon publication the author just becomes another reader like anybody else with no more claim over the text than you or I.

With this in mind it matters little, if at all, what an author says about their own work in determining an interpretation according to Barthes, which I strongly subscribe to. This doesn't mean that you can't learn from the context of the author, you can, but the author can't have complete control over their own work, because that's impossible. You could also tie in the ideas of Freud quite well into this argument, there are other forces at question, much more things going on below the surface of the mind to tie a text down to any particular reading.

So it is impossible as you say above for the author to explain himself/herself because the author has little to say to us. When J.K. (ahem) Rowling said that Dumblebore was gay after the end of the HP series, that is just one possible interpretation like any other, and holds no real value at all. J.K Rowling is dead!

Interesting, thanks. I can see this side of the argument, and will definitely look into the essay you suggested to perhaps sway me a bit more.
Just like anyone in any occupation, a lot of people change their minds and opinions on many subjects. Walt Whitman published numerous editions of his poetry because he "wasn't satisfied with the previous," George Berkeley could have practically composed three more dialogues to his Three Dialogues Between Hylas and Philonous, because his opinions kept changing, and Immanuel Kant did the same occasionally with his ethical philosophy works, explaining why we have Groundwork for the Metaphysic of Morals and Metaphysic of Morals.
Saying "all writers are dead" sounds a bit extreme, but, indeed, people change their minds and can eventually feel foreign to their own previous ideas, thus giving them not much of an advantage in interpreting his/her own former works; undoubtedly, memory would persist, however, as to what this and that meant in "X" novel or "Y" poem. Even with my own writings, I have gone back and read things written years ago, and felt like someone else had written it, not only because of its quality, but of its ideas; I consider myself no Keats, but I can still interpret my own works all the same, based upon my memory, yet I have otherwise detached myself.

[Jozanny]

When I am actually dead, that is one thing, but all living authors want to control, at least, those who can, is promotion and sales. They really don't care if some reviewer has a hissy fit, or "sees" what the author themselves missed, or says that x isn't actually an erotic fantasy as opposed to a fascist trope.

When I wrote this I knew what I was writing it for; it was a fantasy reunification of a ruptured relationship which in actual fact had been severely damaged thanks to cutting it too close in email. Even the best literary critics would need the real biographical detail to get the full extent of the irony going on in this piece; without it they might say X, or Y, but without the real truth they'd never know what a dark joke I was simply playing on myself.

Not that I do not respect Barthes, but there are facts which shape the motive of what an author does. Scholarly investigations can get some of it, never all of it, and plugging in your own analysis is only on the basis of the finished product, and why would I want my readers to have the biographical impetus? If they appreciate the end product, I may feel gratified; if they don't, I cannot please everyone, and have already moved on to my next job.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Interesting, thanks. I can see this side of the argument, and will definitely look into the essay you suggested to perhaps sway me a bit more.

Cool, yes I have found Barthes very useful, though some of his stuff doesn't really seem worth the effort, though that essay undoubtedly is.

Saying "all writers are dead" sounds a bit extreme, but, indeed, people change their minds and can eventually feel foreign to their own previous ideas, thus giving them not much of an advantage in interpreting his/her own former works; undoubtedly, memory would persist, however, as to what this and that meant in "X" novel or "Y" poem.

It's not really about memory though. You could write a piece tonight and be immediately "dead" when you have finished it. What the author thinks or feels has almost no impact upon the text at all according to Barthes. Your characters take on different meaning according to who has read them and each one will be different because we are all different.

You could write "the cat sat on the mat" and I could picture a big fat black cat on a bright orange mat, the fact that you intended the mat to be red has no bearing upon my image at all unless your next sentence states that the mat is red. If you see what I mean?

Whether you look back or leave biographical information behind upon the actual nature of the mat or the shape of the cat means absolutely nothing to me, the cat has already been immortalised in verse and I have my own picture in my head.

Take that a stage further and produce a 500 page novel and trying to tie that down to a fixed meaning becomes absolutely absurd. If we can't agree on a mat or a cat in six words how the hell are we going to agree on a 500 page novel?

Not that I do not respect Barthes, but there are facts which shape the motive of what an author does. Scholarly investigations can get some of it, never all of it, and plugging in your own analysis is only on the basis of the finished product

Yes there are a lot of things which make up the authors mind and what maybe motivates the author but you have put your paint on this canvas and it is not yours anymore. It doesn’t matter what you thought or intended for the characters in your short sketch because they are no longer your creations they take on a life of their own. This would probably be Bathes position anyway, it is certainly mine through Bathes ideas anyway, my own interpretation of the interpretation?

[MorpheusSandman]

You might find it extremely insightful if you read the short essay by Roland Barthes "The Death of the Author"...

I know of the principle of the essay even though I've never read it. It's a very post-modern idea though, isn't it? I mean, the author's intent was for the longest time respected as being the God behind the creation; interpretation was all about figuring out precisely what they meant. Of course, the more abstract a work becomes the more "filling in the holes" interpretation it requires. One great quote that sums this up is "an author has a right to define what they intended, but not what they created"; meaning that the two aren't always one in the same. There are obviously always unconscious elements at work under the surface. However, I think the "death of the author" notion takes things a bit too far and has a tendency to give people too much liberty to subjectively interpret and ignore intention. This usually just has a habit of either obscuring relevant or inventing irrelevant meaning.

[JBI]

Meh, Barthes is read often, and, from what I understand, almost always misunderstood. What he really was arguing about, generally throughout his career, was the reaction to his style in critical works (notably his work on Balzac and Racine) where he radically tried to write about topics essentially unrelated to the study of those texts. Everything, including his work on Balzac seems preoccupied with this notion of structures and semiology that he planted into the works for critical purposes. The death of the author is more like saying The Birth of the Critic. By delegitimizing the role of the author, Barthes essentially paves the way for fancy language, and his own role. He lowers Racine, and raises Barthes, discredits Balzac, and credits his interpretation.

The notion makes sense, but it has been employed as an abuse to build one's own argument. If we are to delegitamize a reading based on the author's perspective, ultimately, the reading of the critic is delegitamized in the process, as also being just one, limited reading. In the end, the study of literature ultimately loses its purpose, as the death of the author (and his society as a second thought) means the death of a context and purpose, and the birth of open interpretation, which is, in a sense, dominated by mental masturbation, and fancy language.

By removing the personal, the form of expression and the role of the author also changes. This isn't too significant in terms of novels, as good ones tend to shy away from pure didacticism, but in terms of poetry, it really complicates things, and in terms of modes of expression (I think here mostly from Female writers and minority writers) it really discredits the importance of a framework. One cannot, for instance, really read a poet like Lowell without looking somewhat at their framework. Likewise, the more personal of poets, the ones who engage their readers openly, as apposed to the ones who use the medium as the message, tend to be shoved aside. A personal expression becomes either no expression at all, or a metaphor for an expression for a large group, or for humanity as a whole, the role of the artist is diminished, and again, the value of art is essentially reduced to what can satisfy the most jargonic writing.


I like Barthes, don't get me wrong, but it seems that this concept of death of the author is very limited, and works only to a certain degree, and for certain texts and traditions. Poetry tends to suffer greatly, whereas Drama I would argue fairs the best against such reading (as the Drama itself is designed to allow the actors room to create characters, rather than having everything controlled by a narrator, or voice). Certainly novels seem to be easily read in this light, but on the whole, that is because the novel is a form built upon narration, and doesn't have implied narration, rather a world of its own created by the narration of the text. In reading a novel, with the exception of a select few (arguably), all seem to be easily read without much background on the author or their world. Try reading Earle Birney like that, or Pablo Neruda, and then you run into certain problems.

[JCamilo]

Barthes is dead. That must explain everything.

Anyways the focus of guys like Barthes, Foucault, Derrida on aspects others than the creator are only because previously the criticism was heavily focused on this creator and the other aspects of the literary experience are left behind. Barthes was not the first to touch the subject and wont be the last since it is just true. It will only depends what aspect of a text you want to approach.

[Jozanny]

JBI has posted more eloquently on the schematic Chinese box trap Barthes would place us in than I would have earlier, but my main objection is to narrative text as fossil. Writing is a living process; publishing opens additional relationships, from readers to text, critics from text to readers.

To me, a poet like Cavafy isn't dead--not that I am a *seedy* homosexual prowling like an urban city rat in Egypt--but Cavafy can speak to me exactly because I am myself an outrage of suffering prowling like an urban city rat, formed out of the limitations of Old World Rome as much as Cavafy saw through the proposition of Hellenistic enlightenment. Language, properly built upon itself, continues history and returns us to it, a living dynamic as opposed to something entombed which insists upon our high priests serving as conduits.

As a practical matter, what I was trying to point out was a writer in progress has no use for Barthes methodology here. Publishing is difficult enough, let alone doing a good job with the material published. I hate nearly everything I have published, which is another way of saying I am still working with the text, whether or not I actually revise or rewrite.

[JCamilo]

To Barthes the text is also a living thing, just like writing is a living thing, reading is a living thing. The Author is dead is just a slogan for him to get the uproar, the guy focus is the relationship between author -text - reader, so you could claim he is useless for creation process, altough I would say many authors are often trying to manipulate the relation between text and reader, so reckonizing the power of the reader may change how one may write or not...

[LitNetIsGreat]

I know of the principle of the essay even though I've never read it. It's a very post-modern idea though, isn't it? I mean, the author's intent was for the longest time respected as being the God behind the creation; interpretation was all about figuring out precisely what they meant. Of course, the more abstract a work becomes the more "filling in the holes" interpretation it requires. One great quote that sums this up is "an author has a right to define what they intended, but not what they created"; meaning that the two aren't always one in the same. There are obviously always unconscious elements at work under the surface. However, I think the "death of the author" notion takes things a bit too far and has a tendency to give people too much liberty to subjectively interpret and ignore intention. This usually just has a habit of either obscuring relevant or inventing irrelevant meaning.

Yes I would agree with most of that and I like the quotation and the idea of unconscious elements at work under the surface. Though your last point which is also what JBI was saying in a way I don't fully support:

The notion makes sense, but it has been employed as an abuse to build one's own argument. If we are to delegitamize a reading based on the author's perspective, ultimately, the reading of the critic is delegitamized in the process, as also being just one, limited reading. In the end, the study of literature ultimately loses its purpose, as the death of the author (and his society as a second thought) means the death of a context and purpose, and the birth of open interpretation, which is, in a sense, dominated by mental masturbation, and fancy language.

I don’t really agree here, I don’t see how literature loses its purpose in light of the ideas of Barthes and others arguing from a similar perspective. The art is opened up for all to find meaning, and it is true that some can abuse that potential and push that too far, but that is the fault of the would-be critic, and not of Barthes or the art itself. The art is still as ever complex or as simple as it always has been.

Don't get me wrong I'm not championing Barthes to the extreme, reading around context and even biographical information is still important (and often very interesting to boot) but I personally completely shy away from biographical interpretations of texts, for if anything that does reduce the art dramatically.

...but my main objection is to narrative text as fossil.

As a practical matter, what I was trying to point out was a writer in progress has no use for Barthes methodology here. Publishing is difficult enough, let alone doing a good job with the material published. I hate nearly everything I have published, which is another way of saying I am still working with the text, whether or not I actually revise or rewrite.

But once you have published it and it is in the hands of the reader that's it. It might still be spinning around in your head driving you crazy but that doesn't really affect the reader's position or interpretation or enjoyment of it. You can't come running after them with a footnote like Miss Rowling did with Dumbledore.

[MorpheusSandman]

The art is opened up for all to find meaning, and it is true that some can abuse that potential and push that too far, but that is the fault of the would-be critic, and not of Barthes or the art itself.

I think the problem becomes determining validity both on objective and subjective scales and knowing when to say 'this has gone too far'. If we look at art as a form of communication, the concept and reason for its existence is mostly invalidated if we simply hear, see, and understand what we want with no care of the intent or context of what's said, shown, etc. e.g., if I say "I want a hamburger for lunch" and someone hearing me says "Yes... how profound. I see how your statement is relevant to the starving people in the world and all of the gluttonous people in the Western world who ignore their suffering"... well, I don't think I have to explain how wrong this is. The same applies to art, and when it reaches this level it's gone too far. As JBI I said, I think it's entirely work dependent; how much does the author/artist invite subjective interpretation? Can subjective interpretation have relevancy to anyone but the person? Does it actually offer any insight into the work, or is it stripping the work to a skeleton and applying the flesh as it sees fit?

[mono]

The art is opened up for all to find meaning, and it is true that some can abuse that potential and push that too far, but that is the fault of the would-be critic, and not of Barthes or the art itself.

I think the problem becomes determining validity both on objective and subjective scales and knowing when to say 'this has gone too far'. If we look at art as a form of communication, the concept and reason for its existence is mostly invalidated if we simply hear, see, and understand what we want with no care of the intent or context of what's said, shown, etc. e.g., if I say "I want a hamburger for lunch" and someone hearing me says "Yes... how profound. I see how your statement is relevant to the starving people in the world and all of the gluttonous people in the Western world who ignore their suffering"... well, I don't think I have to explain how wrong this is. The same applies to art, and when it reaches this level it's gone too far. As JBI I said, I think it's entirely work dependent; how much does the author/artist invite subjective interpretation? Can subjective interpretation have relevancy to anyone but the person? Does it actually offer any insight into the work, or is it stripping the work to a skeleton and applying the flesh as it sees fit?

Again, I have to do a bit more research on Barthes to really discuss him fully, but on a subjective level (as opposed to objective, meaning depending on the author), relying solely upon the reader, I think the interpretation can sometimes rely more upon the reader's knowledge, previous experiences, vocabulary, and literacy according to [blank] genre of literature than the piece of literary art itself. One will twist words with every sinew and extent of strength, or lack thereof, to make sense of something, and it occurs daily, particularly with philosophical, poetic, and religious texts - did Marx clearly foresee what would come out of his political philosophy, did Homer truly intend so many homoerotic themes in his epic poetry, did the allegedly 'inspired' 12 apostles really think individuals like Calvin or Hubbard could rise to such power?
In these cases, not only will individuals of all abilities, intelligence, and virtues (highschool students to world leaders) interpret things according to their understanding, but also sometimes for the benefit of themselves, because when individuals cite such convincing and seemingly powerful texts as Marx, Homer, or The Bible, people listen more than if someone cited less popular and sometimes less abstract texts, like Montesquieu, Turèll, or Shintoism, though these writers and texts have also likely gotten victimized at least one time or another. This seems the fault of the word more than anything else; give someone the number 15, and s/he thinks of the number 15, but give someone a word, and multiple definitions, synonyms, and antonyms exist to manipulate it.

[Jozanny]

But once you have published it and it is in the hands of the reader that's it. It might still be spinning around in your head driving you crazy but that doesn't really affect the reader's position or interpretation or enjoyment of it. You can't come running after them with a footnote like Miss Rowling did with Dumbledore.

I don't think it is that distinct Neely, with apologies. Shakespeare created a great many of his plays by adapting Hollingsworth's prose histories, yet Hollingsworth doesn't survive beyond Shakespeareans themselves, and really isn't "in the hands of the reader". There are many steps between writer and finished product. You may not be aware of all the middlemen and legalese, but it exists. And when I am dead my estate will control my original source material for a long time--and even public domain doesn't mean readers then have unfettered control over the narrative.

I don't think authors die. People do; sometimes languages do too, but language is the closest thing there is to immortality, and as such, is always dynamic.

[spotty]

As someone who is terrible at catching symbols and metaphors and certainly 'deeper meanings', I have worked long and hard to 'let go' of my guilt about not understanding a book as fully as it might be understood. Reading interpretations sometimes made me angry at myself for not catching things that in hindsight seem so obvious.
The truth for me is though, that I love going with my own personal impressions of a book. Its a unique and special kind of relationship between myself and the text.
Take 'Heart of Darkness'. I have read that book 10 times at least. The thing about it I still love most, is the atmosphere. I can feel the jungle. I FEEL what its like going down that river.
Heck, I have no idea what Kurtz represents in any literal or symbolic fashion.
I get what he is, I think, which to me is the 'height of man' that still ultimately is capable of his dark 'desires' once stripped of civilization's control.
THere are probably tons of other buried meanings in the book, but I can't afford to get bogged down by them. Learning them will/would change the book for me into something else.

Bottom line, I don't care if my interpretations are wrong or lacking. I get off on reading Heart of Darkness period. Even if it might be for entirely the wrong reasons, or even if I completely miss the point of the book.

There dagnabbit! I said it.

[varnish7]

Personally, I've never had too much use for overanalyzing a book. AFAIC, if an author is writing a novel because he wants to make some sort of statement, that statement is going to be fairly obvious. I realize that in some places and times, a writer couldn't just say straight out that the church or the government was corrupt or anything like that with impunity. However, it seems like they would try to make their point fairly obvious.

I just don't like it when someone will twist every single word to uncover some hidden meaning to a novel. In high school, we read Grapes of Wrath, and apparently the minister or whoever he was is a "Christ" figure because his initials were "J.C." and he ended up getting killed. Maybe Steinbeck really intended it that way, but I find it hard to believe that anyone would actually do that on purpose.

Another thing I didn't like is when we were studying Shakespeare in high school and college. The teacher once spent an entire class going over the first scene of Hamlet where the guards are changing shifts and saying "hi" to each other. She kept interrupting every other line for analysis. It just really distracted from the play. I mean, just because it's Shakespeare doesn't mean that every line has to have a deep profound meaning. Weren't Shakespeare's plays aimed at the illiterate masses? I mean, it's this or watching a public execution. I can understand that Shakespeare might have included some inside jokes or hidden messages or whatever. But would his plays have really strained the mental limits of someone watching or reading them when they first came out?