Jane Eyre and her independence from men

[iorix]

i once wrote a "letter to the editor" and they completely twisted my words to say the REVERSE of what i meant. but they still put my name under it whenthey published it in the newspaper!

the tv presentations of Jane Eyre corrupt the story into being some sort of pagan, wiccan story about todays sexist "women's spirituality".

some of the pagan elements in the book appear to me to be out of place and i think the original text has been tampered with.

maybe im wrong but i consider it more likely true than not.

why would Jane think about suckling "mother natures breast" when she is faced with her privations. She almost dies of starvation! (not shouting) Jane was raised in a christian boarding house, where would she learn about paganism. The pagan elements are in too glaring a conflict with the absolutely christian principles of the book.

im no scholar, these are just my feelings about it.

i just really admire the christian Jane Eyre and am disgusted and vexed with paganism in feminism

[annakarina]

I haven't seen any of the TV adaptations, so I can't really comment.
However, we're talking about the book here. You seem to be jumping ahead of us and finding meanings in what we're saying that aren't really there. We're asking ourselves what made Jane Eyre an independant woman who was ahead of her time, that's all, and being an independant, strong woman is perfectly compatible with being God-fearing.
You seem to have a real bee in your bonnet when it comes to feminism. I advise you go to the library and get out some of the fundamental feminist texts - Greer, Friedan and De Beauvoir should do for a start. You keep ranting on and getting hysterical about something you obviously know nothing about.

[bethps]

But if so, why did Jane go back to Rochester? When she went looking for him, she didn't know he was a widower. The only circunstance that had changed was that she was now a independent woman thanks to her inheritance. She was free to love him without depending on him.

[sweetsunray]

But if so, why did Jane go back to Rochester? When she went looking for him, she didn't know he was a widower. The only circunstance that had changed was that she was now a independent woman thanks to her inheritance. She was free to love him without depending on him.

That's a good question, I've been wondering about myself. She says to her cousins when she leaves for Thornfield again, beckoned by Rochester's call, that she only wants to make sure her friends are well. And yet, it's hearing his voice say her name over and over that is what prompts her to go. She does not know that Bertha is dead. What if Bertha had survived the fire? Would she have gone with StJohn? I doubt it very much. Would she have but nursed Edward for years or would she have become his mistress after all? I think it very likely the latter would have occurred if she had found Rochester in the state she found him, but his wife still living.

As for the Christian part -

I accept Jane believes in a Christian God. But the child part of the novel indicates that Jane acts purely on her own conscious, inependent of religion, as some seem to think. cfr how she needs to remain to stay in good health and not die.
Most if not all of her expressions regarding accepting life's toils, where to look for guidance in making the correct choices in life could be rewritten without having any Christian or even faith connotation, while not even losing the meaning of how to be a good person making the right choices about what life throws at you. Her vouched for self-respect, self-honesty and integrity is to me her moral guide, and personally I think people can have both and use both whichever belief or non belief they have. IMO, Jane could have been as much of Islam faith, or Buddhist or atheist and make the same choices and come to the same conclusion and resolution. She would have just said the same things in different ways. However that said, Jane is indeed a Christian, but one who makes up her own mind.

[kiki1982]

I don't think Jane would have ended up becoming his mistress. That was against her principles of morality... But other than that, she indeed did not know whether Bertha had died. But does that matter, though? The point is that Rochster has become a better person than he was before. When that happens and he recognises his faults of the past (whether that is connected with religon or not does not really matter), then he is allowed to reunite with his Jane. It is then that she hears his voice. Maybe also when she has finally realised what she wants and what she believes in herself. The death of Bertha is inherent to the story as Jane and Rochester reunite, as Rochester because of that fire that Bertha caused repents, as Bertha is helping hand towards Jane in a certain sense (Bluebeard). She could not not have died.

[sweetsunray]

I don't think Jane would have ended up becoming his mistress. That was against her principles of morality...

I used to think so too... but I am not so sure anymore. At least I doubt she would have been able to leave him a second time at least. She has also recognized she was made to love, has seen how StJohn denies to himself his love for Miss Oliver, etc...

The point is that Rochster has become a better person than he was before. When that happens and he recognises his faults of the past (whether that is connected with religon or not does not really matter), then he is allowed to reunite with his Jane. It is then that she hears his voice.
...
The death of Bertha is inherent to the story as Jane and Rochester reunite, as Rochester because of that fire that Bertha caused repents, as Bertha is helping hand towards Jane in a certain sense (Bluebeard). She could not not have died.

Yes, that is what enables it, his repentence. And without Bertha's death it is doubtful he would have been able to reach that insight. It is not just his loss of the hand and sight, I think, but witnessing Bertha plunge to her death that pushes him to reach insight what a mess he made it all.

Bertha has been dead for almost a year by then, and had it simply been the removal of obstacle, Jane would have already been free to return and "hear" him in his misery on previous occasions.

It is his repentence and her insight she's made for love and not labour that coincides and opens the heart of the both of them.

[kiki1982]

I used to think so too... but I am not so sure anymore. At least I doubt she would have been able to leave him a second time at least. She has also recognized she was made to love, has seen how StJohn denies to himself his love for Miss Oliver, etc...

Let's think... If he had still been in Thornfield, their two souls would not have reunited. So she could not have found him back in there, in the same situation she left him.

If, on the other hand, his house had burnt down, and Bertha had still been alive and he had also ended up blind and crippled and repentant, then she would have stayed. But I don't think she would have become his mistress.

In the light of what I wrote to Peripatetics about love 'eros' (ερος) (post Charlotte in Love?), she and he were able to love each other in the Platonic way, without actually resulting in any improper conduct (sensuality). He was not able to do that before, nor was she I think. At the end, both do not really need sensuality anymore to be happy. His senses are not really excited, or they are at least limited in their excitement. Unlike with Céline. (no smoking, no wine...). When Jane falls in love with Rochester, she experiences for the first time sensual feelings. But she mentions that those feelings stand between her and any image of God, that she made him an idol.

If you pair that up with ερος, it means that both were not able to see true Beauty. Afterwards, they both are able to see that. He has started praying and she has returned to what she did before. That is why he can love her without seeing her. And why she can love him despite him being not an 'able' man, as they would have seen it then.

Ok, sorry. I made an essay about this, so I'm a little into philosophy now...

[sweetsunray]

Senses are not just what the eye beholds, but also touch, hearing, taste and smell... and sensual excitement would shift more to those. Especially the touch would highten eroticism between them.

How touch is instantly more important is shown by Rochester immediately grappling her when he learns she's returned. He has her on his knee, she combes him, kisses his face all over, etc. When it comes to touch, they both hardly have any reserve anymore, and that even before he pops the question again. Missing each other for so long, finally reunited, obliged to rely more on touch for the senses and the freedom to be happy, not showing much physical restraint and being cuddly all the time...Rochester not wanting to wait longer than 3 days before being wed... I imagine their wedding night to have been very sensual indeed. And this physical closeness at least lasts for 2 years, as Jane remarks on how she supposes they are so closely united because the first two years she had to be his eyes.

[kiki1982]

Yes, I agree. Senses are more than that.

I think what I meant to say was that he used to get excited by outside beauty alone. This, being blind, is no longer possible... That does not mean, naturally, that a blind man cannot feel sensual love. Only for Rochester, it was different to his former, more material kind of love: he sees a beatuiful woman, and bang, he is in love and almost ruins himself by buying her presents. He will no longer do that. He will now love her moe deeply than before. And that is eros.

Surely, their wedding nght must have been fireworks.

[sweetsunray]

True. BUt then outside beauty had already ceased to be of consequence to him after Céline and the other, long before he was blind already. Blanche Ingram is a very "beautiful" woman (and dark... his type) and yet he can see right through the superficial layer. And he instead fell in love with Jane, who is not "beautiful", and yet beautiful to him for her inner beauty.

I'm sure it was fireworks

[mona amon]

They do scorch the pages, don't they?

Let's think... If he had still been in Thornfield, their two souls would not have reunited. So she could not have found him back in there, in the same situation she left him. ~ Kiki

I think this is true. But Jane, when she starts off to find him, does not know this. So although external forces seem to be at work, answering Rochester's prayers and her own, enabling their reunion, the question remains. What would Jane have done if the circumstances were different?

When she hears the disembodied voice, all she knows is that Rochester is calling out to her in pain and woe. So what was her internal state? Was she willing to become his mistress now? She herself does not seem to know the answer. "Will I be so crazy as to run to him?" (paraphrasing!)

[kiki1982]

Beauty had not lost it charm for him after Céline or his other mistresses. He wanted the world to acknowledge Jne as a beauty too and wants her in a beautiful wedding dress. The reference to The Merchant of Venice is of great value in that discussion.

Beauty/outside appearance in this are on one line. He dos not want to be seen marrying a poor woman. Later, he does not care anymore. Just because he has changed through reflection, the fire and his blindness.

'The forse' that united them in soul in the end would not have united them if that had not been allowed. What happens at the end is not natural, so in my opinion, we cannot judge it according to normal situations. Wh has ever heard a voice in the air.

Thinking about Jane herself and her principles though. Why would she run away the first time in order to save herself, and then, a second time, decide to do it anyway. To me, Jane seems like a very high-principled girl who does think about her lot. In my opinion, se would never have yielded.

[sweetsunray]

He mentions how he wants society to recognize her beauty as well, yes. And no, he does not want to be seen married to a poor woman. That does not necessarily mean it is of consequence to him personally, but rather it is still of importance in his mind to society he means to introducer her. Rochester is a man who likes and intends to mingle in society with his bride. He knows society's prejudice, and they would not regard her as his equal if she's dressed as a poor governess. One just needs to read the utterances of company such as the Ingrams to know how they look down upon Jane even as a human being.

After Jane runs away though and Rochester cannot find her, he becomes a recluse who shuns society. Primarly out of grief and broken heart. But he would also have feared the contempt of society who would have known of the scandal. While his own people living in his towns and lands may sympathize with Rochester, such as the inn keeper who relates the burning of Thornfield to Jane, surely the gentry would mock him in a way he abhors: for having a mad wife, for having intended to marry while still married (for Blanche Ingram such a scandal must have been sweet revenge), for being besotted with the most despised creatures of all, a governess. Hence he sends Ms Fairfax away and pays an annuity to her and breaks all contact with the gentry. Then after the fire, he's crippled and blind on top of it, and he retires in the even more secluded Ferndean. Even if he finds happiness again in marrying Jane, he has no intention to delve into society again, other than being a master to the people who are dependent of him. Hence, the reason why jewelry and dresses aren't worth a fillip anymore.

[kiki1982]

So, if he did not care about society in the first place, why did he want to introduce her to it? Why did he turn himself away from society, as you say, out of shame, if he did not care about his appearance to that same society?

The truth of the matter is, that he wants to make out that he does not care, but that deep inside himself, he does care. He himself does not want to care for the opinions of people like the Ingrams because they are superficial, but he is not strong enough to untie himself from that (the moon-motif). That is what he managed to do finally when he became blind (a common Shakespearean motif). He wants to make himself a strong outside (the India rubber-ball), but does not totally succeed in doing so and regularly has trouble with himself trying to put the façade up again. In the end, the whole thing comes crashing down and he will become blind, because he has been blind to all the meaningful things in life. In buying his bride an elaborate veil and wedding dress he wanted her to be more than she was. Not for society alone, as there are no goomsmen and no family members, but only for himself. He buys her a trousseau, which needs to display his wealth, or the wealth of his bride on the honeymoon. It is the same as he did with Céline.

If he had not cared at all for his reputation, as anyone is prepared to believe, why did he conceal Bertha? It is just because he does not want to be the laughing stock of society that he wants her out of his life, with all horrible circumstances after that as a consequence. Had he not cared, he had never wanted to conceal his marriage from Mason and got married at a strange hour of the day (8 o'clock in the morning) in order to try avoiding the impediment. By the time people thought he was going to get married, Jane and he would already have been on the road for about 3 hours...

[sweetsunray]

So, if he did not care about society in the first place, why did he want to introduce her to it? Why did he turn himself away from society, as you say, out of shame, if he did not care about his appearance to that same society?

He does care about society appearance, until Jane runs off and the scandal is known to the world... that is exactly mu point. I never said he did not care about society. He expresses how he cared about not being scorned by society for being married to a mad wife, and he had the experience to justify it. If he did not care about society he would not have traveled so much, nor would he have been able to be play the charming host to his guests. That is my poinrt, that he cares about his reputation.

The truth of the matter is, that he wants to make out that he does not care, but that deep inside himself, he does care.

yes, that was my point... but it is also my point that for himself he does not care about outer beauty, and yet he still cares to lessen society's scorn. I see that as a normal evolution of the invidiual's progress within society, if they are not inclined to be a radical. Not something to scorn him for. Rochester clearly is not an anarchist nor a radical. For my part, radicals who reject society instanly just for the sake of their changes in taste are even more foolish.

He starts in his young life doing exactly what society, family and ties bid him to do: travel half the world to marry the woman selected for him for her money, thinking himself personally lucky at least he's in love with her (at first). He conforms.

But the conformity ends up being disastrous to his individual tastes and needs, and without being guilty for it, he even ends up being scorned by society because of the association. So, for the first time he meets with a serious conflict between his individual versus society. His struggles start to find a balance, once the individual needs reign alone towards the end, yet tempered with meeting the needs of those whom he loves.

Unlike Jane he was not seasoned from early childhood for society's scorn. While for Jane it makes an unhappy childhood, along with her natural conviction of what is just, by the time she is barely an adult the 18 year experience of it enabled her to balance individual versus society very well. Rochester goes through society versus individual conflict for almost the same 16 years. The difference is the conflict arose in a much later age of his life, at an age where conforming to society as a whole has a bigger psychological impact. What is a stranger's scorn for a child of 5 years old? It means nothing. A child's society is that of its chore family: guardians and siblings. Then later, "society" grows in size with school peers and teachers. And only from adolescence do total strangers come into account.

If the individual already met and conquered scorn of childhood society, then it is hardened not to give a fillip about larger society when it reaches adulthood. However, if the child grows into an adult who never met resistance from society, and then plummets into rejection then reputation becomes indeed an Achilles' heel.

That he travels so much and seeks such varying company, that he is quite charming lead in company of many, his long conversations with Jane, are elements that show he's an extravert... that he is a personality who needs diverse society and mingle in the crowd to be happy. He obviously thirsts for it after his 4 year nightmare with Bertha. So, not only does he experience society's rejection much later in life, he also has a high need of society, and thus its acceptance.

While he recognizes he was foolish to enter in a marriage and consider himself in love on outer beauty alone and such a little acquainance is a first step. However, he can attribute it as only 1 bad experience, that is little connected to himself, for he has Bertha's madness and unchaste conduct to lay most of the blame. Only his later experiences with Céline and others teach him, as you argue with the merchant anology, that his own selection process, outer beauty, is marred. This conflict has already played out in the past, and won partly by the individual.

By the time he meet Jane, he's already open to appreciate beauty within. He's attracted to Jane from their first meeting onward. He could not be attracted to her in this way, if he had not already internalized the lesson just for himself that outer beauty means nothing to him really. But the conflict between society and individual is not yet resolved within him. While the Ingram scheme serves in his mind mostly to rouse jeaolousy and emotion from Jane, it would have also served as a reminder to compare and convince him of Jane's inner beauty surpassing Blanche's outer beauty.

But, yes, he still feels he needs to conform to society, even if society are strangers who don't know him or Jane on their wedding tour. And while the marriage ceremony itself may be private, he shows every intention of mingling in society (albeit abroad) with Jane.

The last part of the conflict between society and the individual within him only gets resolved after Bertha's existence becomes known and Jane runs off. When his heart his broken, he realizes what matters the most: he only longs for Jane's society and no other. Only then is he ready to meet his last challenge: conquering his self-contempt.