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Thread: D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

  1. #3016
    Registered User jinjang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Muse
    It was my first instinct to think that narrator sides with Alfred but perhaps not, the ending of the story could be seen in another way. Though it may still be questionable his misleading Maggie in changing the letter but in the same way he does also mislead Alfred. Just as he does not tell Maggie the truth of what is in the letter, when Alfred questions him he leads Alfred to belive that Maggie is ignorant, but the narrator knows that Maggie did not buy anything he said and completely beleives that the child is Alfred's but the narrator does not let this on to Alfred, he lets Alfred go on thinking he got away with something.
    Wicked! Is it possible my unyielding friend, Dark Muse, is agreeing with me at last, at least, at one point? Where is the dancing and singing guy Sapphire put up? Come here and dance for me!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Muse
    Maybe that is the joke? The fact that the narrator is laughing at Maggie and Alfred in equal parts because the mess of their lieves which they have gotten into.
    I thought more like the narrator is laughing with the imagination how Alfred will treat Joey and how Alfred would make a big scene of his triumph over Maggie. It could be a comical scene. No offense to Joey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil
    Perhaps so. We'll have to see when we get to it. I intend to quote all nine places in the story where someone laughs. We'll have to come to some understanding as to why laughing gets repeated (a leitmotif) through the story. I haven't figured it out.
    I learned a new word today: leitmotif, a dominant recurring scene. Thank you, Virgil!
    A tragedy or despicable acts can be depicted comically . Think of Moliere and think of how the musical Les Miserables makes fun at Ternardier's villainy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Muse
    Rather than viewing the story form a more distant stance of a 3rd person narration. In a way the narrator can be seen as creating a more interactive role betwene reader and the characters, as we can see the letter through is eyes, and also see the way he reinterpts the letter later.
    Or, is it trying to show how the narrator as a man or men in general if not the author himself can't figure out women? He walks away more puzzled than ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil
    The father seems to support the son's deviousness, the fooling around with the French girls doesn't seem to bother him. And he keeps the secret from his wife. Very patriarchal and very Lawrence. What caught my eye here was Maggie's flashing "her eyes" at the narrator. Have we talked about the flirting between Maggie and the narrator? Isn't her frustration from getting a sexual response from the narrator the reason for that "dark moth" between her eyebrows? She's happy as a child "attending her father-in-law" and the narrator, but suddenly the darkness, a result I take from getting a sexual response.
    I am not sure on a sexual response from the narrator, but the father certainly is on Alfred's side. I thought it is because he himself possibly and likely fooled around with his debonair look. A sexual response if any would cause an embarrassment not a frown, I think.


    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil
    Agree, Joey cannot satisfy her needs (that is an important point), and let's hope she doesn't try with him.
    Ugh! Your insinuation is repulsive. Maybe I am confused again.
    All men should listen to this: Men must invoke love in women first ever so gently and subtly if they want to get what they want. No violence! Alfred should not try to kill Joey, rather he should cuddle Joey along with Maggie. Ugh! Maggie and Alfred are done for.

    Oops! While I was posting this, there came more.
    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil
    Yes she is, and this is another example of how the feminists critics absolutely hate Lawrence. The older generation present an ideal in this story for Lawrence and see how the mother is delegated.
    I am not a feminist but I do not like Lawrence'idea of ideal women.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janine
    Yes, Dark Muse, this is how I perceived that ending on first reading and I don't think I have changed my thoughs on it after repeated readings. I agree with Bien, there is a certain dry irony at the end of this story. I think the narrator is laughing at the obsurdity of the whole situation and how it turned out. He didn't know he would return to the farm when he read that letter initially. That all depended on the fate of finding the 'wintry peacock' and saving him and having to return him. He might never have met up with Alfred at all had it not been for that one twist of fate.
    We said the similar things at the same time and I just saw your posting after posting mine! How interesting!

    I think I will leave the lit net for today and hopefully I can catch up when I get back...
    Last edited by jinjang; 05-24-2009 at 01:58 AM.
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  2. #3017
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jinjang View Post
    I learned a new word today: leitmotif, a dominant recurring scene. Thank you, Virgil!
    You're welcome. It's a recurring theme, not necessarily scene.

    Ugh! Your insinuation is repulsive. Maybe I am confused again.
    It was only in jest. Though Maggie probably takes it as far as possible.

    All men should listen to this: Men must invoke love in women first ever so gently and subtly if they want to get what they want. No violence! Alfred should not try to kill Joey, rather he should cuddle Joey along with Maggie. Ugh! Maggie and Alfred are done for.
    Good advice. My wife would probably whack me over the head if I tried to get my way through viloence.

    I am not a feminist but I do not like Lawrence'idea of ideal women.
    Most people do not. I'm sure Janine is going to argue with me as to what Lawrence's ideal woman is. Certainly the mother here is a two dimensional character and not fully fleshed out. For a more complex understanding of Lawrence's ideal woman, we woould have to look at the novels. I'm sure Janine is going to bring up Women In Love where Lawrnce has the woman on equal footing with the man in a symbol of star polarities. But some of the othe novels don't have such a generous position for women.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  3. #3018
    Dreaming away Sapphire's Avatar
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    It seems like we're agreeing more and more in here There is not much more I have to say in response to the above posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quark
    Yeah, I agree that the mother does have a role, however slight it might be. If for no other reason, she's there to be a double or opposite to the father. The story is filled with doubles and opposites. The story has two spouses who each have two lovers (if we're counting the peacock). It has two birds. Two colors are dominant through most of the story (either blue and yellow or white and black). It seems natural that there would be two parents who mirror each other in some way, yet are opposites. The father and mother mirror each other in their parental roles, but act in the story as opposites. The father creates a sense of intimacy as he exposes everyone's secrets, but the mother creates distance by enforcing domesticity. She's always (at least in the three or four times she's mentioned) doing some chore or putting a stop to some revealing dialogue.
    I really like this idea: doubles and opposites. One question though: two birds?! I know Joey has 2 descendants, but that would make 3 in total... Are there any other birds in the story?

    And Janine, I would like to get back to you about whether Alfred did or did not read the letter in the next part of the text
    It is not too late, to be wild for roundabouts - to be wild for life
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  4. #3019
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire View Post
    It seems like we're agreeing more and more in here There is not much more I have to say in response to the above posts.
    This happens all the time as we do these short stories. We read them, have our own ideas, and as we discuss and argue we converge and typically agree on its meaning, though we each have our own emphasis. I think these forum discussions like this are invaluable.

    I really like this idea: doubles and opposites. One question though: two birds?! I know Joey has 2 descendants, but that would make 3 in total... Are there any other birds in the story?
    I think the point of Joey's descendants is to connect with the generational theme, like the father and mother versues Alfred and Maggie. Also it shows Joey to be virile and not sterile.

    And Janine, I would like to get back to you about whether Alfred did or did not read the letter in the next part of the text
    I don't think there is any question. Unless I read incorrectly, Alfred never saw the letter in person. Maggie supposedly burned it and Alfred relies on the narrator to tell him what's in it.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  5. #3020
    The Poetic Warrior Dark Muse's Avatar
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    Yes it is pretty clear at the end that Alfred never saw the letter, he says to the narrator

    "Oh well," he said. "I've never got that letter, anyhow."

    "She burnt the blasted thing before I saw it," he said.

    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before. ~ Edgar Allan Poe

  6. #3021
    Of Subatomic Importance Quark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jinjang View Post
    I thought more like the narrator is laughing with the imagination how Alfred will treat Joey and how Alfred would make a big scene of his triumph over Maggie. It could be a comical scene. No offense to Joey.
    Are we up to the conclusion, yet? I have some comments on the laughter, but I was too far behind before and now I don't want to be too far ahead.

    Quote Originally Posted by jinjang View Post
    Ugh! Your insinuation is repulsive.
    I guess we should remember that Joey is symbolically--and not physically--involved with Maggie.

    Quote Originally Posted by jinjang View Post
    No violence!
    Speaking of leitmotivs, violence is certainly recurring in Lawrence. I'm sure Janine and Virgil have more to say on this. I just remember the scene in Women in Love where Gerald is assaulting some animal in front of Gudrun and that's how they fall in love.
    "Par instants je suis le Pauvre Navire
    [...] Par instants je meurs la mort du Pecheur
    [...] O mais! par instants"

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  7. #3022
    Dreaming away Sapphire's Avatar
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    Not a comment on the story itself, just on the above post

    Quote Originally Posted by Quark
    where Gerald is assaulting some animal in front of Gudrun and that's how they fall in love
    Now there is a flip of the mind! Falling in love over assaulting an animal, I would rather like it to happen the other way around. Take for example Jude and Annabel in Jude the Obscure by Hardy - their relation gets quite a blow when they decide to slaughter a pig! Lets say it does not strengthen their love at all. Slaughter is something else than assaulting of course.
    How does peacock taste? If they eat Joey afterwards it will at least be a murder for something... can you eat peacock?! I have some vague memory of dishes with peacock feathers in the palaces of the old days... I think they rather looked good but tasted not that well..

    Sorry, I am drifting a bit
    It is not too late, to be wild for roundabouts - to be wild for life
    Wolfsheim - It is not too late

  8. #3023
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quark View Post
    Speaking of leitmotivs, violence is certainly recurring in Lawrence. I'm sure Janine and Virgil have more to say on this. I just remember the scene in Women in Love where Gerald is assaulting some animal in front of Gudrun and that's how they fall in love.
    We shouldn't get too far off topic. As to that animal, I assume you mean when Gerald was riding the horse and sticking his spurs into her side (and it was a female horse, hint, hint) to control her. There is a recurring theme of violence in Lawrence and interesting you should bring that up. The violence that Alfred wants to do on Joey is a pent up psychological impulse and that does go through Lawrence. Anyone want to read a great Lawrence short story, read "The Prussian Officer." We discussed it in this thread soemwhere.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  9. #3024
    Jethro BienvenuJDC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    Also it shows Joey to be virile and not sterile.
    I had the question about Maggie's virility/sterility. It's quite obvious that Alfred is not sterile. Obviously, none of the parents are sterile. Joey is not sterile. But what about Maggie?

    I don't think that the Narrator wanted to introduce himself in consideration, but gave enough information (the "we" in respects to his own household, which may include a wife and/or children) to conclude a possibility of virility without giving a definite.

    Has Alfred and Maggie over the past six years just not given the opportunity for Maggie to conceive. Has the war (or other distractions) kept Alfred from Maggie? Or is Maggie sterile?



    As I told you, it would be absolutely, totally, and in all other ways, inconceivable.
    Les Miserables,
    Volume 1, Fifth Book, Chapter 3
    Remember this, my friends: there are no such things as bad plants or bad men. There are only bad cultivators.

  10. #3025
    Jethro BienvenuJDC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    The violence that Alfred wants to do on Joey is a pent up psychological impulse and that does go through Lawrence.
    Do you suppose that Alfred has been de-sensitized to death and violence by the war. He was just forced to take gun in hand, pointed toward the enemy, and ordered to kill. If you can and have killed other men, how much easier has it become to kill an animal?

    This is not justification, by any means, but this is another psychological consequence of war. One man may come out hating violence, while another (maybe still hating it but) embraces violence as the only way to address issues.
    Les Miserables,
    Volume 1, Fifth Book, Chapter 3
    Remember this, my friends: there are no such things as bad plants or bad men. There are only bad cultivators.

  11. #3026
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC View Post
    I had the question about Maggie's virility/sterility. It's quite obvious that Alfred is not sterile. Obviously, none of the parents are sterile. Joey is not sterile. But what about Maggie?

    I don't think that the Narrator wanted to introduce himself in consideration, but gave enough information (the "we" in respects to his own household, which may include a wife and/or children) to conclude a possibility of virility without giving a definite.

    Has Alfred and Maggie over the past six years just not given the opportunity for Maggie to conceive. Has the war (or other distractions) kept Alfred from Maggie? Or is Maggie sterile?



    As I told you, it would be absolutely, totally, and in all other ways, inconceivable.
    Good points Bien. Quite possibly.

    Quote Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC View Post
    Do you suppose that Alfred has been de-sensitized to death and violence by the war. He was just forced to take gun in hand, pointed toward the enemy, and ordered to kill. If you can and have killed other men, how much easier has it become to kill an animal?

    This is not justification, by any means, but this is another psychological consequence of war. One man may come out hating violence, while another (maybe still hating it but) embraces violence as the only way to address issues.
    I don't know about this one. It is a bird afterall. But it is in the realm of possibility.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  12. #3027
    Of Subatomic Importance Quark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire View Post
    Now there is a flip of the mind! Falling in love over assaulting an animal, I would rather like it to happen the other way around.
    You mean assaulting an animal over falling in love?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire View Post
    Take for example Jude and Annabel in Jude the Obscure by Hardy - their relation gets quite a blow when they decide to slaughter a pig! Lets say it does not strengthen their love at all.
    Oh, I see. Yeah, typically you wouldn't think attacking a horse would attract anyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire View Post
    How does peacock taste? If they eat Joey afterwards it will at least be a murder for something... can you eat peacock?
    It's a meaty bird, so I sure you could try--might be a little gamy. Okay, now I'm really off topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    As to that animal, I assume you mean when Gerald was riding the horse and sticking his spurs into her side (and it was a female horse, hint, hint) to control her. There is a recurring theme of violence in Lawrence and interesting you should bring that up. The violence that Alfred wants to do on Joey is a pent up psychological impulse and that does go through Lawrence.
    That's what I was thinking of. I figured either you or Janine would have something to say about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC View Post
    I had the question about Maggie's virility/sterility.
    Quote Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC View Post
    Do you suppose that Alfred has been de-sensitized to death and violence by the war.
    It's possible, but it's hard to speculate about since we don't really have much information to work with.
    "Par instants je suis le Pauvre Navire
    [...] Par instants je meurs la mort du Pecheur
    [...] O mais! par instants"

    --"Birds in the Night" by Paul Verlaine (1844-1896). Join the discussion here: http://www.online-literature.com/for...5&goto=newpost

  13. #3028
    Registered User jinjang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil
    Most people do not. I'm sure Janine is going to argue with me as to what Lawrence's ideal woman is. Certainly the mother here is a two dimensional character and not fully fleshed out. For a more complex understanding of Lawrence's ideal woman, we woould have to look at the novels. I'm sure Janine is going to bring up Women In Love where Lawrnce has the woman on equal footing with the man in a symbol of star polarities.
    Janine, what do you think Lawrence's ideal woman is? Is Gudrun or Jane(? sister of Gudrun) an ideal woman? I admit I did not read many Lawrence. I read Women in Love and a few short stories in Volume 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quark
    violence is certainly recurring in Lawrence.
    Really? I remember the horse scene Virgil mentioned in Women in Love and I agree with him and it seems to parallel with taming a woman by force.

    I can't stay long here on weekend as it is a family time. But I will read all the postings in between.

    It is time to get next part of the text, Janine.
    Walk, meditate, forget - Victor Hugo
    Life is bigger than literature - Michael Cunningham

  14. #3029
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jinjang View Post
    Janine, what do you think Lawrence's ideal woman is? Is Gudrun or Jane(? sister of Gudrun) an ideal woman? I admit I did not read many Lawrence. I read Women in Love and a few short stories in Volume 2.
    You know, I have no idea! His ideal woman, to me, seems to change from novel to novel; but maybe, I am wrong. To be honest with you, I think Lawrence was always in pursuit of what his ideal woman should be; but like his journeys for discovery, he never truly settled on a complete answer. I think that Lawrence definitely does not write weak women. He writes them prominent and strong, asside from certain characters. Ursula is the name of Gudrun's sister, by the way. It wasn't Jane. You are thinking maybe, of Jane Eyre? She was a strong character. I do think Lawrence felt that the natural order of things in the world, derrived from observing nature itself, was that male animal/man is dominent over female animal/women. I don't however, think he believed that man was there to bully women either or visa versa. Lawrence was very complex and to answer what his 'ideal' woman was, is to study him for a lifetime. I really don't have a certain answer myself.

    Really? I remember the horse scene Virgil mentioned in Women in Love and I agree with him and it seems to parallel with taming a woman by force.
    Yes, I recall that and I was thinking of the rabbit scene, also. I don't think Gerald was particularly kind to Winifred's pet rabbit; if I recall that correctly. Both scenes represented to Ursula a sort of power in Gerald, that was to her, at the time irresistable; even thought, she knew it to be dangerous. Many women are spurred on by dangerous men. Look back into history and you will see this is so true. In the end Ursuala didn't not give into Gerald's power, did she?

    I can't stay long here on weekend as it is a family time. But I will read all the postings in between.

    It is time to get next part of the text, Janine.
    Oh jingjang - do enjoy your family time. It's really hot here today; so I don't know how long I will be online today. Computers generate heat. I still don't have my AC in the window.

    Like you, I just read all the new postings and think that everyone has come up with good ideas here. I will now post the end of the story and see what everyone has to say regarding 'laugh' s, etc.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  15. #3030
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    LAST SECTION OF TEXT - yeah!

    Same paragraph continued…
    The road made a loop down the sharp face of the slope. As I went crunching over the laborious snow I became aware of a figure striding down the steep scarp to intercept me. It was a man with his hands in front of him, half stuck in his breeches pockets, and his shoulders square--a real farmer of the hills; Alfred, of course. He waited for me by the stone fence.

    'Excuse me,' he said as I came up.

    I came to a halt in front of him and looked into his sullen blue eyes. He had a certain odd haughtiness on his brows. But his blue eyes stared insolently at me.

    'Do you know anything about a letter--in French--that my wife opened--a letter of mine--?'

    'Yes,' said I. 'She asked me to read it to her.'

    He looked square at me. He did not know exactly how to feel.

    'What was there in it?' he asked.

    'Why?' I said. 'Don't you know?'

    'She makes out she's burnt it,' he said.

    'Without showing it you?' I asked.

    He nodded slightly. He seemed to be meditating as to what line of action he should take. He wanted to know the contents of the letter: he must know: and therefore he must ask me, for evidently his wife had taunted him. At the same time, no doubt, he would like to wreak untold vengeance on my unfortunate person. So he eyed me, and I eyed him, and neither of us spoke. He did not want to repeat his request to me. And yet I only looked at him, and considered.

    Suddenly he threw back his head and glanced down the valley. Then he changed his position--he was a horse-soldier. Then he looked at me confidentially.

    'She burnt the blasted thing before I saw it,' he said.

    'Well,' I answered slowly, 'she doesn't know herself what was in it.'

    He continued to watch me narrowly. I grinned to myself.

    'I didn't like to read her out what there was in it,' I continued.

    He suddenly flushed so that the veins in his neck stood out, and he stirred again uncomfortably. '

    The Belgian girl said her baby had been born a week ago, and that they were going to call it Alfred,' I told him.

    He met my eyes. I was grinning. He began to grin, too.

    'Good luck to her,' he said.

    'Best of luck,' said I.

    'And what did you tell _her_?' he asked.

    'That the baby belonged to the old mother--that it was brother to your girl, who was writing to you as a friend of the family.'

    He stood smiling, with the long, subtle malice of a farmer.

    'And did she take it in?' he asked.

    'As much as she took anything else.'

    He stood grinning fixedly. Then he broke into a short laugh.

    'Good for _her_' he exclaimed cryptically.

    And then he laughed aloud once more, evidently feeling he had won a big move in his contest with his wife.

    'What about the other woman?' I asked.

    'Who?' 'Élise.' 'Oh'--he shifted uneasily--'she was all right--'

    'You'll be getting back to her,' I said.

    He looked at me. Then he made a grimace with his mouth.

    'Not me,' he said. 'Back your life it's a plant.'

    'You don't think the _cher petit bébé_ is a little Alfred?'

    'It might be,' he said.

    'Only might?'

    'Yes--an' there's lots of mites in a pound of cheese.' He laughed boisterously but uneasily.

    'What did she say, exactly?' he asked.

    I began to repeat, as well as I could, the phrases of the letter:

    '_Mon cher Alfred--Figure-toi comme je suis desolée_--'

    He listened with some confusion. When I had finished all I could remember, he said:

    'They know how to pitch you out a letter, those Belgian lasses.'

    'Practice,' said I.

    'They get plenty,' he said.

    There was a pause.

    'Oh, well,' he said. 'I've never got that letter, anyhow.'

    The wind blew fine and keen, in the sunshine, across the snow. I blew my nose and prepared to depart.

    'And _she_ doesn't know anything?' he continued, jerking his head up the hill in the direction of Tible.

    'She knows nothing but what I've said--that is, if she really burnt the letter.'

    'I believe she burnt it,' he said, 'for spite. She's a little devil, she is. But I shall have it out with her.' His jaw was stubborn and sullen. Then suddenly he turned to me with a new note.

    'Why?' he said. 'Why didn't you wring that b---- peacock's neck-that b---- Joey?'

    'Why?' I said. 'What for?'

    'I hate the brute,' he said. 'I had a shot at him--'

    I laughed. He stood and mused.

    'Poor little Elise,' he murmured.

    'Was she small--_petite_?' I asked. He jerked up his head.

    'No,' he said. 'Rather tall.' 'Taller than your wife, I suppose.'

    Again he looked into my eyes. And then once more he went into a loud burst of laughter that made the still, snow-deserted valley clap again.

    'God, it's a knockout!' he said, thoroughly amused. Then he stood at ease, one foot out, his hands in his breeches pockets, in front of him, his head thrown back, a handsome figure of a man.

    'But I'll do that blasted Joey in--' he mused.

    I ran down the hill, shouting with laughter.

    THE END
    Last edited by Janine; 05-23-2009 at 05:10 PM.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

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