D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

[BienvenuJDC]

Good thoughts jinjang...

[Dark Muse]

I do not see him as interrogating Alfred, but rather reassuring Alfred. He tells Alfred more or less that is "secert" is safe, that he did not reveal the truth to Maggie, but he does not in fact pass any judgement against Alfred, nor does he make any mention of Alfred going behind Maggie's back the way in which he suggests that Maggie went behind his.

[jinjang]

Oh... I may have to be ahead a little bit.

"What about the other woman?" I asked.
"Who?"
"Elise."
"Oh" - he shifted uneasily - "she was all right-"
"You'll be getting back to her," I said...
He looked at me. Then he made a grimace with his mouth."

He asked series of questions...possibly more to Alfred than to Maggie.

[Dark Muse]

First of all though it was Alfred who first apporached and questioned him, and I do not see anything critial in anything the narrator says, rather it seems more just like a couple of guys chewing the fat as it were.

[jinjang]

Good thoughts jinjang...

Welcome back!

[jinjang]

First of all though it was Alfred who first apporached and questioned him, and I do not see anything critial in anything the narrator says, rather it seems more just like a couple of guys chewing the fat as it were.

That is precisely why we should wait until we get to that part of the story so that I can read everyone's point of view and, then, I may sway to one or the other side.

[Dark Muse]

That is precisely why we should wait until we get to that part of the story so that I can read everyone's point of view and, then, I may sway to one or the other side.

You are the one who first brought the ending up.


I just think that if the narrator was truly morally concerned with the issue of invading their privacy than when Maggie first handed him the letter and pretty much told him to read her a letter that was addressed to her husband, he would have questioned it before he even began to read.

But it was not until he became aware of the contents inside the letter that he than began to scrutinize Maggie about it, but he knew from the start that he was reading a letter that was not intended for her.

[jinjang]

I differ on that with you because he consented to read the letter before he was aware of what he is reading. He thought he was helping Maggie with French.

If he flatly refused to read it, then there would have been no story for us to discuss or argue. His initial involuntary and hesitant involvement into the couple's life does not negate his good intention, though, with curiosity of an author.

You lack a sense of humor!

[Dark Muse]

Perhaps he prematurely says yes to her request, but she does tell him that the letter is for her husband before he acutally starts to read it.

"Would you mind reading a letter for me, in French?" she said, her face
immediately black and bitter-looking. She glanced at me, frowning.

"Not at all," I said.

"It's a letter to my husband," she said, still scrutinising.

[BienvenuJDC]

I don't think that I will continue with this thread. There is way to much arguing and not enough discussing. We need to respect one another's comments.

[Dark Muse]

Me and jinjang were just entertaining ourselves untill the next portion of the story is posted, and I do not think she feels I am being disrespectful simply becasue I disagree with what she says.

[Virgil]

It is definitely unnatural. They just had a snowstorm in February this year and the news said it hadn’t happened in two decades. The unnatural snowstorm may mean the whole situation with Maggie and Alfred is unnatural due to the war. The narrator may have felt maladroit to interfere between a couple and it has been nagging on him.

I looked England's annual snowfall and while a snowstorm like this can happen, it is rare. Mostly England gets less then ten inches of total snaow for the year.

Really, that surprises me; I thought you would see it right away, Virgil. I especially was struck by the dark rocks protruding out of the white; also the mention of wire in the context of the bare trees or winter in the snow. I also thought of "Women in Love" and the ending. Everything pointed to death and if not a universal wasteland then a personal reflection of how Lawrence was viewing it all at that time.

Well, I'm human. I read the story rather quickly I admit. I have read it again since and probably need at least one more reading.

This was the period in which he and Frieda were driven out of Cornwall because the English police thought they were involved in spying for the German side...

Janine, can you look up when and where this story was written. You have that book.

Snow and frozen land always represented to Lawrence the negation of life and of death - think back to our discussion on 'The Man Who Loved Islands'. Also, the final scenes in WIL. Think how Lawrence gravitated towards the south and the sun and it's life giving forces - think of our discussion on 'Sun'.

Definitely.

No, you have me wrong. I don't think he is totally sympathetic to anyone really, not for any duration of time. I think he is temporarily sympathetic to each at different junctures in the story. I think basically, the narrator remains neutral at the end.

I don't know if the narrator remains neutral, but I agree he is not sympathetic toward anyone. He does take a character's point of view here and there, but I can't find anyone but the older folk sympathetic.

I don't believe Lawrence blames women for the war. Where are you getting that from, Virgil? If you look at WIL and realise that's also a war novel, war themes throughout and in the background (subtext), tell me how women in general are responsible for the war?

Janine I have to find the essays. He didn't blame them for starting the war, but for how life evolved afterward. These were non-fiction essays, so he is quite catagorical.

[QUOTE=Dark Muse;714894While I naturally personally like Maggie I agree that for Lawrence she was likely not intended to be a sympathetic character. As well he rarely does portray his women in a very positive light within his stories, and much of the imagery surrounding Maggie in the descriptions of her can be seen as having a negative connotation to them.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, though I think I was a little harsh on Maggie. In my second reading I do think this is the type of woman that Lawrence blames. She seems to be a victum of the war circumstances.

More than once throughout the text she is referred to being "wtichy" or "witch-like"

that is not necessarily a bad thing for Lawrence. Lawrence is quite pagan D-M. I think you would like some of his later stuff where he fully develops those ideas. This is not one of his later stories so it's not clear here how to take his witchy comments.

There is also the fact that at the beginning when she first wishes to have the letter read to her, she does come off as being flirtatious in her efforts to try and cajole the narrator to read the letter to her. And her demeanor during the reading of the letter seems to be scornful and mocking.

She does not appear outwardly broken up about the news. Even though she strongly suspects Alfred, she takes it in a more callous way, laughing at points during the reading, which I imagine was in a bitter and malicious way.

In my second reading I think she came across as holding back the anger. While it's a little strange, I don't think it's as unusuall as I first thought.

[Janine]

First off, I have read all posts from tonight, think that was about 2 pages. I have to say I still agree with jinjang and with Bienvenu on some of the finer points about the letter. I don't wish to argue further on those points; it's rather meaningless, if we all have a different opinion anyway. I hope now we can move on with the story. I have been getting together the next part of the text, which is nearly ready to post. First though, I wish to answer your post, Virgil.

I looked England's annual snowfall and while a snowstorm like this can happen, it is rare. Mostly England gets less then ten inches of total snaow for the year.

Interesting, but was that before 'global warming'? I don't really want to go there, V. or we will have another contravesy... Ok, lets put it this way; was that the average snowfall in England in the year this story took place, say 1917?

Well, I'm human. I read the story rather quickly I admit. I have read it again since and probably need at least one more reading.

Get out, Virgil, are you really 'human'; I thought you a Roman god all this time. Ok then, you are forgiven and possibly by a third reading, you will change your mind a dozen times. I read this story so many times now, I am even a bit confused. It is short enough to read several times over.

Janine, can you look up when and where this story was written. You have that book.

Yes, I have that book; but it revealed very little about this story, nothing at all significant. I will look through it and some others I have; to see if I can dig anymore up. If you had read my introduction, my dear friend, it does give a bit of the background of where Lawrence and Frieda were living at the time. Here I am reposting that for your benefit:

Two entries from Wikipedia

In late 1917, after constant harassment by the military authorities, Lawrence was forced to leave Cornwall at three days' notice under the terms of the Defence of the Realm Act (DORA). This persecution was later described in an autobiographical chapter of his Australian novel Kangaroo, published in 1923. He spent some months in early 1918 in the small, rural village of Hermitage near Newbury, Berkshire. He then lived for just under a year (mid-1918 to early 1919) at Mountain Cottage, Middleton-by-Wirksworth, Derbyshire, where he wrote one of his most poetic short stories, The Wintry Peacock. Until 1919 he was compelled by poverty to shift from address to address and barely survived a severe attack of influenza.

One of D. H. Lawrence's houses (Mountain Cottage), in which he lived
with Frieda in 1918-19, stands below the B5023 road on the outskirts of
Middleton-by-Wirksworth, approximately 1.5 mile NW of Wirksworth. Lawrence also reputedly spent a lot of time at Woodland Cottage on the opposite side of New Road. While staying in Middleton in the bitter winter of 1918-19, Lawrence wrote the short story A Wintry Peacock (published 1921).

Note: he had nearly died of influenza that winter.

Definitely.

Yes, I thought you would agree about that.

I don't know if the narrator remains neutral, but I agree he is not sympathetic toward anyone. He does take a character's point of view here and there, but I can't find anyone but the older folk sympathetic.

I agree with this. His veiw point also seems to sometimes fluctuate during the story; at least, to me. In some ways, we are living the experience sequencially, as the narrator is taking us through his own experience.

Janine I have to find the essays. He didn't blame them for starting the war, but for how life evolved afterward. These were non-fiction essays, so he is quite catagorical.

Right, I don't think you worded that last post of yours clearly concerning this matter; it will be more interesting to read the actual essays.

This is curious and may be significant. Today I looked on the back cover of my paperback of a small collection of L's short stories "England, My England", which happens to contain this story, "Wintry Peacock". On back cover:

The hero of England, My England stands for a whole social ethos, whose decline Lawrence pinpoints with bitter precision.

The other stories in this collection are concerned with outward alliances and inner compulsions. And in the dialogue of reason and the unconscious it is the dark forces whose call is the most insistent...

Note: the first reference is to the individual story 'England, My England' in the England, My England short story collection.

The second paragraph refers to the choice of these particular stories, of which 'Wintry Peacock' is included.

Yes, though I think I was a little harsh on Maggie. In my second reading I do think this is the type of woman that Lawrence blames. She seems to be a victum of the war circumstances.

Now which is it; you were too harsh or she is to be blamed? This statement of yours doesn't really seem to be consistent or am I missing something? In conclusion then, you do see Maggie as a war victim?

that is not necessarily a bad thing for Lawrence. Lawrence is quite pagan D-M. I think you would like some of his later stuff where he fully develops those ideas. This is not one of his later stories so it's not clear here how to take his witchy comments.

How true that is. He most certainly did like the 'witch' aspects of a woman physically speaking, the dark eyes are always so prominent, reminescent of Miriam's (Jesse Chamber's) eyes, I think. This is quite odd; I have been trying to read all the rest of the L stories I have not read, so today I was reading out of volume III and such a strange 'late' story, Virgil; have your ever read 'The Last Laugh'? I might urge you to read it, so you can explain it to me. This one was truly modern and rather otherworldly. It's definitely one I have to read a number of times, before I get any clearcut ideas on it. It's the most bizzare Lawrence I have read so far.

In my second reading I think she came across as holding back the anger. While it's a little strange, I don't think it's as unusuall as I first thought.

I felt that way and I have read the story about four times now. I felt she restrained herself, but the anger was right below the surface, with a lot of tension there, ready to errupt at any given time.

After you answer this one, I will post next part of the text.

[Virgil]

Yes, though I think I was a little harsh on Maggie. In my second reading I do think this is the type of woman that Lawrence blames. She seems to be a victum of the war circumstances.

No, a terrible typo. I forgot the "not" in the second sentence. I meant to say, "In my second reading I do think this is not the type of woman that Lawrence blames."

How true that is. He most certainly did like the 'witch' aspects of a woman physically speaking, the dark eyes are always so prominent, reminescent of Miriam's (Jesse Chamber's) eyes, I think. This is quite odd; I have been trying to read all the rest of the L stories I have not read, so today I was reading out of volume III and such a strange 'late' story, Virgil; have your ever read 'The Last Laugh'?

I don't remember it. But laughing seems to be very important in this story. Maggie's laugh during the reading of the letter, and the narrator's laugh at the very end of the story.

[jinjang]

Ambiguity is at the core of the story. Lawrence, may he rest in peace!

If he read this thread of our discussions, I am sure he would laugh out loud because his Rorschach inkblot test is successful with us.

Anybody can pick a quote in order to direct the argument in their advantage.