God is Truth. God is Love. God is the source of all that exists. It's an interesting question of whether God exists or not. I don't come to these threads in the forum to prove others wrong, grotto. I do because I wish to encourage people to enquire about God, and the soul, etc. If people can come to know what they truly are - which is more than an ego - they are that much closer to knowing God.
But most of what you say applies to many of the atheists too. Why are there so many atheists going on the religious section of the forum with the clear and express intent of starting fights with religious people (usually Christian)?Originally Posted by grotto
I thought JBI's frustration with what he felt were posts trying to convert him was an interesting point. Yet . . .
No one is trying to convert you if you aren't reading the posts in the first place. How hard is it to just ignore a post and not come to the religious forum if it bothers people so much?
Last edited by Drkshadow03; 04-07-2009 at 10:45 PM.
"You understand well enough what slavery is, but freedom you have never experienced, so you do not know if it tastes sweet or bitter. If you ever did come to experience it, you would advise us to fight for it not with spears only, but with axes too." - Herodotus
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In the NT the Pharasees ask exactly that of Jesus, who refuses on the grounds that they are non-believers. I betcha if they had asked David Copperfield, he would have showed them his magic.
"He was nauseous with regret when he saw her face again, and when, as of yore, he pleaded and begged at her knees for the joy of her being. She understood Neal; she stroked his hair; she knew he was mad."
---Jack Kerouac, On The Road: The Original Scroll
I know this wasn't for me but, I thought I would add, I didn’t single out any sect, atheists, agnostics, Christian, it doesn’t matter; my question was why and what is the reason you need so hard to express your personal belief? It’s a valid question. I have no axe to grind, no horse in this race, I’m just asking a question. The vocal atheist is no different than the vocal Christian; they validate the existence of God by trying to prove that no God exists. Think about it, are there any special meeting groups for the “Truth Against Tooth Fairies”?
I have no interest in converting anyone to anything. I don’t care if this battle rages for months on this forum. I asked a different type of question, that’s all, I picked no side. I usually do ignore these types of threads, but hey, I was bored at work so I thought I would see what the fuss was about. Low and behold! It’s the same fuss that I have been hearing all of my life. I still think it’s a waste of precious time, but it’s slow at work right now, so I have the time.
So, this is a polite way to push your beliefs on people then. If you truly believe this, then you know, no matter how much you try, you will never be able to convince someone who doesn’t believe your idea. In one sentence, you describe what God is, then, you go on to say “I wish to encourage others to enquire about God”. Why do you feel the need to encourage anyone? I’m not being insulting, I’m asking, who are you? Why should anyone do as you? If their enquiry finds something different than yours, are they wrong then? My enquiry has gone far beyond what your ideal is, does that make me wrong in your eyes?
Dressing God up as Truth, Love and all that exists sounds all nice, warm and fuzzy I agree, but if in your words, “God is the source of all that exists” Than how do you explain, hatred, greed, envy, famine, war and every other so called thing that causes us pain in our lives? You can’t conveniently separate those things and say they are man made when in the previous sentence you say God is the source of all that exists. Setting the good against the bad keeps the dualism alive, attaching to one validates the other. You can’t separate them, that is the illusion.
Last edited by grotto; 04-08-2009 at 08:32 AM.
I did not say you were wrong.
God is Infinite. I do not have time now, but I will write more later.
Please show respect. I will do the same.
I fully intend to show respect, I have no reason to do otherwise. If there is a debate, there is always the chance of someone becoming upset. I apologize if you think I am coming off as aggressive, I’m not.
This string is mildly interesting. It reminds me of an online discussion in which people tried to prove that "God" existed. None of the attempts even came close to proving the existence of an infinite, omniscient, omnipotent god, but there were some arguments that may have proven that one or more smaller gods existed, of God of the Solar system of God of te planet.
1. I'll start at the top. Do you know the Dead Sea Scrolls (found in the 1960's) verified the ancient Biblical texts, almost to the letter? Have you read Isaiah 53, which contains prophecies of Christ written hundreds of year before Christ lived?
2. The creation account in the Bible matches what science has found as the order of creation. How did the authors know the order in which animals were created?
No problem.
Okay, I shall state my position. God is infinite. We do not see God because of our current consciousness. There are several different levels of consciousness, such as unconsciousness, gross physical consciousness, subtle consciousness, mental consciousness, and spiritual, or unbound consciousness. Each of these levels has a difficult time perceiving the higher level. For instance, gross consciousness has a difficult time perceiving subtle or mental consciousness. And mental consciousness has a difficult time perceiving what is spiritual, because it is beyond the conceptual thought which it believes to be the sum of reality.
Mystics of every religion, it is safe to say, have said very similar things. Basically my position is that God (Infinite, Truth) is One, while there are many interpretations. God is like on another side of a barrier from us. Although this barrier is only our own limitations and consciousness. But it seems like God is on another side of a barrier; this is why we ask "Where is God?" Because in our mental or material conceptions, we do not see God and we doubt the existence of an Infinite One.
Anyhow, further, we have a feeling of an ego, and we have feelings of limitations. If we set God aside for a moment, there is still this. We feel we are separate. You and I spoke of this on another thread. In Buddhism and Hinduism this is called Samsara or Maya. In the Vedas it is called the "Dream of separateness." In Buddhism the goal of the path is Awakening, or Enlightenment, beyond all, and realization of one's Buddha-nature. In Hinduism the goal is Self-realization or God-realization.
For many, especially in the West, Buddhism has become less and less, and they discard out of hand anything mystical. However, it is my understanding that the mystical part of it is essential. The Buddha-nature is not something which cannot be grasped, it is actually something entirely graspable. It is pushed away from us all the time, we are always being practical. But one big part of Buddhism, and indeed of any philosophy or religion is understand the question of reality, ourselves, and truth. As we said, the question "Who am I?" is so essential.
To go back to God, my understanding that God is One. God is Infinite Light. In Buddhism there is a Buddha called Amitabha Buddha, Buddha of Infinite Light. The question of what is reality is kind of involved in Buddhism. However in my view it is Infinite Light. In Hinduism, this is taken to be understood as Deities; Krishna, Ram. The essence of God is understood to be Infinite consciousness, knowledge, bliss, etc. Hinduism and Buddhism each look at the Ultimate Truth, or the Source, God, by whatever name you will call it, and each have their own perspective. In Pure Land Buddhism there are numerless Pure Lands, with numerless Buddhas and Bodhisattvas. Again this is discarded by many who seek Buddhism. That is fine. I believe it is an accurate description of what God (Infinite Light) is.
Finally, and this is the main thing. When I said those mystics have said similar things about God, what I mean is... well, have you read "The Dream of A Ridiculus Man" by Dostoevsky? What the mystics describe is the light of God, of Brahman, or Atman. They say that nothing can die. Vivekananda has a good quote which is illustrative.
I am not sure if it was perhaps Sri Aurobindo, who said also, "pain and suffering are only the extremes in this play."There is hope for all. None can die; none can be degraded forever. Life is but a playground, however gross the play may be. However we may receive blows, and however knocked about we may be, the Atman is there and is never injured. We are that Infinite.
So you ask, how can there be God if there is suffering? Well, the answer coming from the "other side," is basically, be at peace, be happy, don't worry... it is an understanding of truth which cannot be expressed, which is always flowing. The infinite flow of the spirit. It is basically, be at peace, because; the universe is empty, your suffiering will cease while you are eternal. How to explain "Life is a game," "Life is a play"? How to say that life is illusion? Well, the thing is, we are eternal. What happens to eternal beings temporarily does not register, it is fleeting illusion. We are the eternal Atman, soul.
I do apologize since this wasn't entirely cohesive. Just trying to get my thoughts into the post.
Basically the message from the otherside is "This is what Awakening is, be at peace because you are an eternal soul, the same essence as God." To sum up my position, our true nature is the eternal Atman, which is of the same essence as God.
George Harrison said more than once, "Many things in life can wait, but the search for God, that cannot wait."
Here is the thing, and you said you do believe this. We are not separate from the world, or from the universe. But if this is true, if we are not separate, why do we feel separate? Einstein said, we feel separate as sort of an optical delusion of consciousness. But doesn't this mean it is rather important to know, to find out? Doesn't this make you wonder, what is it possible to be?
We are part of the universe, we part of reality, and complete self-knowledge is our inheritance. We don't die any more than God or the universe dies. Our source is the source of reality, and how can something go to somewhere other than its source? How can we go anywhere but to our source? All reality has one source, and nothing can ever be separate from this source. In my knowledge, that source is God.
Anyway, since we are the same nature as God, since who we really are is the divine soul; we are not fully satisfied until we are perfectly situatdd in self-knowledge, self-surrender, self-realization, or God-realization (all of which are quite similar terms).
This is why as George said, the search cannot wait. If we are heirs to truth, how can we be satsified with anything except truth, and peace?
The question is not: "How can God exist if there is suffering?" The question is: "What exists?" "Who am I?" "What is reality?" "What is God?" The question is not, "Can [this] exist while [this other] exists;" but rather, "What exists?" "What is true?"
"What exists" and "What is true" is not dependent on you, me, your actions or my actions, or the actions of all humanity. Hope that you can see my point.
Just to make a quick comment on some of your last post. Please see this as a compliment; it is not aggressive in any way. Your age is your advantage; don’t allow your ideas and intelligence to keep you from seeing wisdom. Don’t miss the forest for the trees.
My point in throwing a wrench into this is, you state what God is and then proceed to go on a long winded way of telling me why we can’t see who God is. Endlessly describing states of consciousness that you have only read about, other people’s ideas, and the like to prove why it is that we do not see what god is. By the way, more people than George Harrison have said that, he is no one special, same with Einstein. Quoting others only helps to keep you removed from your own truth. When you point to another’s ideas, you can safely remove responsibility of your own thought.
How do you know what the message is from the other side? All I hear is verbiage from an intelligent, well read young person with a quest for knowledge that is getting bogged down in endless ideas from other people, words spoken from who knows who, from times past and much of it of dubious origin that you assume to be true because it fits your current state of identifiable consciousness. Show me that state of consciousness! Where is this scale that it’s measured against! So who are you? How would you seek God if you could not hear or see, if no one else’s ideas bogged you down and sent you off on tangents?
So where do I stand? Life is to be experienced in this current form, it is not a thing to escape from, it’s a thing to be awakened to.
No, again, I was quoting George as an expression of my own thought.
As they say, all this is something which can't be taught, but has to be realized.
You do get down to the heart or the crux of the matter. I can't really avoid telling you at this point, although this may derail it. Everything I described is not something which I have only read about, I wouldn't have written it then. I have experienced these states of consciousness which I described - divine consciousness. I have experienced Awakening in the Buddhist understanding, as well as divine revelation in the Hindu understanding.
You may not believe me, that is fine. I will go elsewhere if you don't wish to discuss anymore.
I quote people like Vivekananda beause, as I said, most mystics have described things which are the same, in a certain similar manner. I woulnd't perhaps believe them except that I experienced too what they described. In one case, word for word, the description of this writer was what I experienced.
Perhaps Buddha-nature, perhaps Atman, the soul, are only our interpretations of it. It is clear that we, by logical thinking, should be of the same nature as the rest of the universe - energy, or light. A photon of light is eternal, it never ceases to exist, but it merely changes form. We are thus the same, also eternal. Some think we lose our individuality, some don't ponder. For me, I think it is absurd to think that we are supreme in the universe, which appears to be the stance taken by atheists. I believe we are a part of a universe which was created from the Infinite Light, which is not unconscious, which is not less than us, but we are part of the Upper Force, if you will, of the Divine.
Anyway you ask how do I know what is the message coming from the Divine, I hope I have explained that to you a bit.
No Einstein was not that special, nor was he the most advanced spiritually, etc. George Harrison was not special because he said that. George was deeper spiritually than perhaps you will ever know. Of course he probably wouldn't wish to be thought of like that, as he was unfailingly humble, but it is true about him.
Yes these have been some tangents, please forgive me for that. Sorry I didn't answer all your questions. As for your request of me to show you that state of consciousness - I can't show it to you. I do hope you, and all, find what I have found some day.
And I am aware that others have said what I have said before. I am aware that there is nothing new under the sun. But they are dead now, and they are not here. Also, when one learns something, discovers something for oneself, even if it has been discovered before, then they are being original. But then I did read that somewhere, so maybe it is taking me further from truth to agree with it and repeat it.
Last edited by NikolaiI; 04-09-2009 at 09:58 AM.
It does not matter what I believe or what anyone else believes, it’s what you believe. Belief I have come to know is a hindering word.
Those who know, do not say, those who say, do not know. Yet! Some one had to start the ball rolling and so it goes.
This thread has been derailed enough; I wish you the best in your quest. Now back to our regularly scheduled programming already in process.
My post was short - do you have time to answer it?It does not matter what I believe or what anyone else believes, it’s what you believe. Belief I have come to know is a hindering word.
Those who know, do not say, those who say, do not know. Yet! Some one had to start the ball rolling and so it goes.
This thread has been derailed enough; I wish you the best in your quest. Now back to our regularly scheduled programming already in process.
Nope, sorry, I have no interest.
It skips a few steps like "swarmers" (aquatic and flying), that is land critters should be after the sea critters but before the flying variety but biblicly come at the end, Genesis 1.21-24. That and the astrology is off in that the sky considered firmament, the sun and stars come after light, day and night etc. I dunno. Maybe he built the physics before the physical, but then he created heavens and earth first.
Not sure about the dead sea scrolls confirming anything more than they and the bible were written centuries ago. Though you may have something there...
Last edited by krymsonkyng; 04-09-2009 at 01:10 PM.
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