Vegetarianism moralkly, yes that is what I meant. Thank you everyone for your great posts, and for being respectful.
Vegetarianism moralkly, yes that is what I meant. Thank you everyone for your great posts, and for being respectful.
First, let me say that I am asking a question and I am genuinely interested in receiving a response because I have also thought about changing my diet. I am just curious; I am not trying to anger anyone.
But, how do vegetarians, vegans, frugivores, who chose their lifestyles from a moral standpoint, counter the argument about harming plants? And I don't mean about causing suffering or pain: I can reasonably agree that plants sense no pain due to a lack of nervous system. (Even though it is confusing to me that plants develop poisons, thorns, etc.) However, I mean more about the idea of sensation. I would argue that although a plant cannot sense pain, it can still sense SOME things. Yet, if I eat a plant, I have ended its sensation of the world; I have still caused it death, although a harmless, painless death.
These sort of questions have always confused me; I always come to a conclusion that there is no way for me to eat without causing some sort of harm. Are there not minuscule bacteria, etc that are on plants, fruits, etc anyway? Will not these be destroyed as well from consumption? I guess it may come down to the lesser harm: choosing that which does not feel pain.
Or maybe something else. Perhaps viewing the world as a cycle (which I often do), with a lightheartedness (I'd rather die than live too seriously) in which all things interact with each other in a natural, reincarnating cycle? Animals predate on other animals, and to me, the ethical-moral distinction between humans and nonhuman animals seems arguable. Similarly, I have already accepted that I am a part of this cycle; I may be killed and eaten by an animal, or I will definitely be consumed by something once I am dead. I could argue that I'd prefer not to be killed and eaten (as an animal), but also I could argue that I'd prefer not to be eaten even if I could not sense pain either (as a plant).
Well, this may be confusing because I just wrote this quickly. I am just trying to make some sense for myself. I hope to hear from anyone who is interested in responding. Thanks.
I do have little doubt whether the diet itself is the sole factor. Vegetarians in general have a healtier life, i.e. tend to be non-smokers, have less alcohol intake, and live an active life (excercise, do sports, etc). The socioecnomic factors can not be disregard in this case.Originally Posted by blp
There was an old thread in the General Chat section that discussed the same topic long time ago. And I still have the same point of view now as I had then.
I became a vegetarian from a moral standpoint, and I remain a vegetarian from a philosophical standpoint. We're just one animal among many, and I think it's pure speciesism to draw a moral distinction between humans and other animals.
I think yours is a fair question, and one I've asked myself. For me, it comes down to balancing the need to live against the need to avoid harming another creature. I don't eat anything that comes from a dead animal, because it's pretty easy to do that without any detriment to my health or quality of life. I tried a vegan diet, but it made me so miserable I starting eating dairy again. I try to avoid leather shoes, but struggle to find a comfortable alternative, so I reluctantly wear leather, although I'm always on the lookout for an alternative. At the very minimum I have to eat plants if I want to survive. I have come to a compromise with myself; it's necessary sometimes to act counter to my principles in order to survive.
"Books don't offer real escape but they can stop a mind scratching itself raw." David Mitchell
Thanks for your question, and sorry I didn't reply sooner. You raise a good piont and I did some research but a lot of it was beyond me! Tsuyoiko gave a satisfactory answer. For me, I think about it like this. Yes, plant life has life. But for me it takes an intellectual step to understand that it does, and that I should not kill it (unnecessarily). I must be in the same place about plants as non-vegetarians are about animals. For me, with animals, over the years, it's become very clear that I should be a vegetarian. Especially since my health is very good. If my health is better or the same without eating meat, then the only reason to eat meat would be to satisfy my tastse. Well for one it doesn't, it repulses me. But if it did, I would refrain the same way I do from indulging in something like cake.
What I'm trying to say originally is that it takes a mental effort to understand the position of plants. It's natural that one life form consumes another, this is the way of nature. But consider the elephant, the rhinocerous, and the ox - they are much stronger than humans, and they are herbivore. Humans can be vegetarian and be strong. There is at least more than one top athelete who is a vegetarian. This is pretty convincing evidence for me. In light of this evidence, the only reason I can see that there are non-vegetarians is simply that it is so immersed in our culture. Less than 3-5% of people do not eat any meat at all. When 95% of people do something, there is a strong pressure to do it as well.
I know I still haven't even answered your question... I guess it takes a mental effort to understand (at least partially), or put oneself in the place of the animal (empathy, the only way to understand their suffering, to connect their suffering to what it would feel like for us to suffer in the same way) - and it takes a greater mental effort to understand plants. But another thing, plant life is nearly infinite. Look at a rain-forest. We of course can't eat randomly the leaves of those trees, but plant life very naturally dies of all kinds of causes. It is abundant and it doesn't suffer pain. Still, as you say, it has some sense of life, so it is sacred too. We shouldn't kill more than we need of anything.
(the statistic I mentioned is about America)
Last edited by NikolaiI; 03-10-2009 at 12:29 AM.
I'm surprised that the argument for eating plants wasn't that plants aren't sentient beings. I've heard convincing arguments for vegetarianism for moral reasons based on not killing things that think. It would actually be better economically if everyone were a vegitarian. I've heard that it takes much more land to feed cows unitil adulthood than it does to grow enough crops to have the same mass as an adult cow(I've seen the sources too, but I forget what they were). I've thought about becoming a vegetarian before, but not because you have to kill animals to eat meat. I see no real problem with killing sentient beings(including humans), but I do believe that there's something wrong with malice. As much as a lion isn't being malicious by killing to eat, a person isn't either. However, I don't see how raising an animal(and forcing it to live how you want it to) and then killing it could be anything but malicious. Maybe that's an arbitrary distinction, I certainly don't see impeding on the liberty of dogs by keeping them as pets as a bad thing, but there's just a feeling of insanity that I get when I think about raising something with the ultimate goal of killing it. Maybe it's some kind of primitive pack instinct, like if I'm raising something, it's part of my family. Anyway, I'm not a vegetarian. I never buy meat but if somebody offers me some meat, I'm not going to turn them down, and I do really like the taste of birds and shellfish. I may become a vegetarian one day, but it would probably be less a moral issue and more because I wish to live self sufficiently at some point, and I can likely achieve this goal much easier without a bunch of animals around. I know that I'll NEVER give up milk though.
I think if you make a signature, you should inspire some emotion in someone else. I also think it would be pretentious for me to think I could do that.
i'm not vegetarian, though i like very few things with meat in them.
As an American I find it pretty hard to not eat meat at all as like you kind of said it's just a part of the culture kind of, but often times I can go months without eating meat simply out of mere taste. Like I go downstairs and what I usually want to eat is a PBandJ
Although I eat meat on a very small amount, like the poster above mentioned, i do not like the raising of animals just to be killed. However, often times i've dreamed of living in a cabin out in the middle of the woods for a couple of years. There are a lot of places in the midwest like this, where you'd be a long way from the nearest town, and in such cases I do not see anything wrong with that person hunting and gathering for survival
I'm losing all those stupid games
That I swore I'd never play
Instead of arguing with posts I disagree with on this thread, I'll simply say WHY I am a vegetarian, and leave it at that. Agree, or disagree: each of us has our own opinion.
I do not eat meat for a variety of reasons. First and foremost, I grew up on a farm, with cattle, chicken, geese, sheep, pigs, etc. I had many pets, and whenever we went to the grocery store, my grandmother would point out packages of beef on the shelves, and say to me, 'That is what Selene is going to be when she gets too old.' Now, I didn't think it was right to have something as a pet for it's lifetime, then kill and eat it. If you name something, it is no longer nutrition, it is a life, and a companion, and killing and devouring it is one of the most barbaric things a human being can do.
Here in North America, at least, we wouldn't eat a dog, or a cat: what makes those lives more valuable than those of cattle, or pigs? Who decides what species of life deserve more rights and respect?
Because I do not personally kill my own food, I do not think I deserve to eat it. I don't think anybody deserves to eat meat unless they kill the animal providing the meat themselves. People don't seem to realize that meat came from an animal, and that is the fault of grocery stores, which provide people with neatly pre-packaged meat, some distance from the blood and slaughter. We're able to entirely disassociate the meat from the animal. I believe some thanks should be given when we take a life for ourselves, and you don't get that with things pre-packaged in plastic. We EARN the right to eat our meat when we kill it ourselves.
Also, there is the fact that eating meat provides much less energy than eating plants.
Simple explanation (Trophic levels). The more trophic levels there are, the more energy is lost. The first trophic level in the chain of meat-our digestive system is the sun causing photosynthesis to occur in the plants. I can't tell you off the top of my head what percentage of sunlight actually reaches the plants on earth, but it is very small. Then, when a cow/sheep/pig eats the plant, only 10% (roughly) of that energy is passed on to the consumer. Then, when we, the humans, eat that meat, we only get 10% of the animals energy.
How much time, energy and farmland could we save if we just ate the plants?
The only reason anybody would experience stunted growths and other issues would be because they are not properly supplementing their diet with other proteins. The vegetarians that have issues are the ones who quit eating meat and survive solely off of pasta and junk food.
Meats like venison aren't actually very healthy. Venison has little to no nutritional value, and is less of a hearty, healthy meat than a meat that hunters like to eat for pleasure, and out of pride of having killed it themselves. I do actually have a firm basis for this, having grown up in quite a poverty stricken family who hunted venison for nutrition.
Naked except for a cigarette, you let your mind drift and forget your disbelief. Feel the chill down your back and the flutter of wings through dandelion fields, and forget the pull of gravity in a night without stars.
I lack eloquence and commitment to my arguments. They are half baked, and I will begin passionately, and then abandon them.
Really? Why didn't you just respond: Because plants do not have a central nervous system and can't feel pain?
It was a ludicrous question anyway to try and give plants equality to animals when it comes to a philosophy of reducing the infliction of unnessasary suffering.
The source of these facts are from Diet For A New America by John Robbins. They underline the vein of argument associated with the environmental benefits of becoming vegetarian, which may prove more convincing in todays climate (excuse the pun):
Number of people worldwide who will die as a result of malnutrition this year: 20 million
Number of people who could be adequately fed using land freed if Americans reduced their intake of meat by 10%: 100 million
Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by people: 20
Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 80
Percentage of oats grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 95
Percentage of protein wasted by cycling grain through livestock: 90
How frequently a child dies as a result of malnutrition: every 2.3 seconds
Pounds of potatoes that can be grown on an acre: 40,000
Pounds of beef produced on an acre: 250
Percentage of U.S. farmland devoted to beef production: 56
Pounds of grain and soybeans needed to produce a pound of edible flesh from feedlot beef: 16
The Environmental Argument
Cause of global warming: greenhouse effect
Primary cause of greenhouse effect: carbon dioxide emissions from fossil fuels
Fossil fuels needed to produce meat-centered diet vs. a meat-free diet: 3 times more
Percentage of U.S. topsoil lost to date: 75
Percentage of U.S. topsoil loss directly related to livestock raising: 85
Number of acres of U.S. forest cleared for cropland to produce meat-centered diet: 260 million
Amount of meat imported to U.S. annually from Central and South America: 300,000,000 pounds
Percentage of Central American children under the age of five who are undernourished: 75
Area of tropical rainforest consumed in every quarter-pound of rainforest beef: 55 square feet
Current rate of species extinction due to destruction of tropical rainforests for meat grazing and other uses: 1,000 per year
The Cancer Argument
Increased risk of breast cancer for women who eat meat daily compared to less than once a week: 3.8 times
For women who eat eggs daily compared to once a week: 2.8 times
For women who eat butter and cheese 2-4 times a week: 3.25 times
Increased risk of fatal ovarian cancer for women who eat eggs 3 or more times a week vs. less than once a week: 3 times
Increased risk of fatal prostate cancer for men who consume meat, cheese, eggs and milk daily vs. sparingly or not at all: 3.6 times.
The Cholesterol Argument
Number of U.S. medical schools: 125
Number requiring a course in nutrition: 30
Nutrition training received by average U.S. physician during four years in medical school: 2.5 hours
Most common cause of death in the U.S.: heart attack
How frequently a heart attack kills in the U.S.: every 45 seconds
Average U.S. man's risk of death from heart attack: 50 percent
Risk of average U.S. man who eats no meat: 15 percent
Risk of average U.S. man who eats no meat, dairy or eggs: 4 percent
Amount you reduce risk of heart attack if you reduce consumption of meat, dairy and eggs by 10 percent: 9 percent
Amount you reduce risk of heart attack if you reduce consumption by 50 percent: 45 percent
Amount you reduce risk if you eliminate meat, dairy and eggs from your diet: 90 percent
Average cholesterol level of people eating meat-centered-diet: 210 mg/dl
Chance of dying from heart disease if you are male and your blood cholesterol level is 210 mg/dl: greater than 50 percent
The Natural Resources Argument
User of more than half of all water used for all purposes in the U.S.: livestock production
Amount of water used in production of the average cow: sufficient to float a destroyer
Gallons of water needed to produce a pound of wheat: 25
Gallons of water needed to produce a pound of California beef: 5,000
Years the world's known oil reserves would last if every human ate a meat-centered diet: 13
Years they would last if human beings no longer ate meat: 260
Calories of fossil fuel expended to get 1 calorie of protein from beef: 78
To get 1 calorie of protein from soybeans: 2
Percentage of all raw materials (base products of farming, forestry and mining, including fossil fuels) consumed by U.S. that is devoted to the production of livestock: 33
Percentage of all raw materials consumed by the U.S. needed to produce a complete vegetarian diet: 2
The Antibiotic Argument
Percentage of U.S. antibiotics fed to livestock: 55
Percentage of staphylococci infections resistant to penicillin in 1960: 13
Percentage resistant in 1988: 91
Response of European Economic Community to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock: ban
Response of U.S. meat and pharmaceutical industries to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock: full and complete support
The Pesticide Argument
Common belief: U.S. Department of Agriculture protects our health through meat inspection
Reality: fewer than 1 out of every 250,000 slaughtered animals is tested for toxic chemical residues
Percentage of U.S. mother's milk containing significant levels of DDT: 99
Percentage of U.S. vegetarian mother's milk containing significant levels of DDT: 8
Contamination of breast milk, due to chlorinated hydrocarbon pesticides in animal products, found in meat-eating mothers vs. non-meat eating mothers: 35 times higher
Amount of Dieldrin ingested by the average breast-fed American infant: 9 times the permissible level
The Ethical Argument
Number of animals killed for meat per hour in the U.S.: 660,000
Occupation with highest turnover rate in U.S.: slaughterhouse worker
Occupation with highest rate of on-the-job-injury in U.S.: slaughterhouse worker
The Survival Argument
Athlete to win Ironman Triathlon more than twice: Dave Scott (6 time winner)
Food choice of Dave Scott: Vegetarian
Largest meat eater that ever lived: Tyrannosaurus Rex (Where is he today?)
'Anger's my meat; I sup upon myself,
And so shall starve with feeding.'
Volumnia in Coriolanus
Those would probably convince me if I weren't already a vegetarian. Thank you for posting them.
Most of my friends are either vegetarian or vegan. I find it interesting that in some circles they are confronted with a stigma? I have often thought about becoming a vegetarian, though admittedly, It would be for environmental reasons before anything else. I grew up in a thirdworld country and used to help out killing our dinner chickens, or watch animals be halal butchered, which is a very bloody affair. It neither disgusts me, nor do I feel any particular empathy with the animals; rather it is a sense of gratitude and respect.
I think it is shocking to see how much CO2 emmission is involved in producing a steak, not to mention the meat producing business in general. Furthermore, perfectly good land is butchered to make pastures, or to produce animal feed instead of crops for human consumption. That doesn't make much sense to me; especially since I agree with Becca, and the irresistable logic of the throphic cycle.
At the end of the day, I would become a vegetarian in a hearbeat, all it would require is a minimal change in diet, and a consultation with a doctor or nutritionist to make sure I was getting poper food. In fact I don't think it is unlikely that I became a vegetarian even in the near future.
I feel pretty similar to Chava. I am not a vegetarian, though the majority of my friends are vegan or vegetarian. I have never become vegetarian for the pure fact of I just usually eat what I'm given. If someone makes me food and it has meat in it i eat it, but generally on my day to day I don't really have any significant craving for meat at all. So I could easily be vegetarian, but I just like the ease of not being vegetarian. I LOVE vegan restaurants and vegan food and If there were many of those around here I would eat at them everyday. But if a bunch of my friends are going and getting fast food, I want to eat something that is going to fill me up that is not salad or french fries. I don't like burgers, I don't like chicken, but if i'm at a place that has few vegetarian options, i'll eat that over nothing any day.
I'm losing all those stupid games
That I swore I'd never play
A complete overhaul of the meat industry certainly would hurt!! How familiar are you with the meat industry?
A complete overhaul, by which I'm assuming you mean drastic, immediate changes to how animals are treated, handled, fed, transported, housed, slaughtered, dressed, and processed would cause serious harm to the animals, the farmers, and the consumers.
Animals are incredibly sensitive to sudden changes in their routine, and very prone to stress-related illnesses. An overhaul would lead to more illness, which is obviously bad for the animals, bad for the farmers in that they lose money, and bad for the consumers because they're buying poor quality product.
To say that the meat industry should be conducted more conscientiously is an uninformed position. There are extreme precautions taken in every single aspect of producing the meat you see in the grocery store. Of course there is always going to be an exception- illness is something that happens everywhere- it happens with your vegetables as well.
As well, the improvement of all these factors of the industry is a constant priority. The health and welfare of the animals is of the utmost importance.
I'm studying animal biology in university (pre-vet), and there is a huge emphasis put on education about the meat industry. Basically, I'm tired of being told that:
a) if I really love animals, I wouldn't want to eat them/ if I'm going to be a vet, eating meat is a contradiction
and
b) the meat industry is careless and does not take into account the health and welfare of the animals. Meat producers are a bunch of heartless uneducated killers.
(I'm not saying that you are saying these things, but that it what I often encounter from vegetarians- a lack of education about the actual meat production side of the issue)
Edited to Add: I do not discourage vegetarianism, no in the least! I just wish that those out to convert others were more educated than they often are.
Last edited by *Classic*Charm*; 03-17-2009 at 05:54 PM.
I'm weary with right-angles, abbreviated daylight,
Waiting for a winter to be done.
Why do I still see you in every mirrored window,
In all that I could never overcome?
i completely agree with you. I find the same people in this thread who judge others for their inability to accept other people's religions in the religion thread come here and they go from being impartial to stating and preaching their opinions as fact. Seems like humility and accepting the views and practices of other cultures doesn't matter unless it applies to religion.
I'm losing all those stupid games
That I swore I'd never play
Mathor who, what, when?
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