The Christian Hell

[skasian]

Again, we arrive at the position that the god created us, complete with our sin, which he abhors.

Doesn't add up.



False.

Hell Pizza is a privately owned NZ company and no relation at all to BK or Starbucks. BK and Starbucks aren't related either. I've never heard of the Bikini Festival, but Demon Energy [drink] is just another small, privately-owned NZ company which is no relation to any of the others.

This information is available through the NZ Government website here.

The Mudfight Bikini Festival sounds great - where is it? (and when)



The rumour is false. Starbucks and BK are publicly-listed companies whose books are subject to close audit by several regulatory bodies and there is no payment to demonic cults.

Hell has a chain going, but Demon Energy are a very small company.





Good grief, where did you get all this?

Hell Pizza and Demon Drink are simply trading on your own fears. Why do you think they came up with those names? Because the owners know that controversy creates talk, which creates business. First rule of business is to get your brand name known, and it's sad but true that any company which chooses a demonic or hell theme will attract publicity because people from various churches will kick up a fuss - and in your case, pass on unfounded rumours.

Just think - every time you pass on that rumour, you are actually helping those companies, which is both funny and ironic.

The BK, is a "WHOPPER", which is just big, rather than a whooper, so that one's gone, and as for Starbucks' logo being a goddess, it comes from Greek mythology, so it's no relation to anything you'd need to worry about. Would you have a problem if their logo was Zeus or Hercules?



There you go - all lies, every bit of it, you can drink coffee and eat burgers to your heart's content. I can understand you not going to Hell Pizza, though. Even the Catholic church asked its members to avoid the place. Their pizzas are ok. Demon Energy is just typical guarana/caffeine rubbish and shouldn't be fit for human consumption. They'll go broke anyway - as has every Kiwi company which has tried to break into the "energy" drink market.

Actually I never passed on such rumour as I believed it was untrue, I was just asking you if you know anything about it. Thanks for confirming that all is false, and I heard these rumours but a bunch of school people couple of years back.
Oh yeah, I dont have much a thing against Hell pizza, I think they use these devilish themes to increase their profits and fame. I prefer Dominoes, Hell pizzas are way too spicy

Oh yes, God is absolute good and truth, and we are not, so we are capable of sin.

[Pendragon]

Dawkins is far from a "dork", someone needs a lesson in humility before calling others names. This discussion became obsolete once people made their points on belief or disbelief in hell...

[Rush_of_Blood]

i have looked at all the posts, and i don't see what you are trying to answer now. it seems like it's now turned into a general philosophical debate. what main question are we answering now?

[skasian]

I say there isnt much to discuss about the Christian Hell to a further extent, which may make up the reason why people are drifting along some irrelevant philosophical debates.

[skasian]

skasian, i apreciate your effort to explain your point of views, you are extremely patient and kind in your words. but i disagree with every single word you say
i also think your view is filled with contradictions you clearly dont suspect, but...

"He created us for the hope of us being His children"
thats it? thats why we exist? thats the reason for all of this? that is way too naive and underelaborated for me..

"Now let me ask you a question, how is a cloud, rock, planet saturn in a universe "living"? How confident are you to believe that universe is living? How do you define "living"?"
the universe is alive and expanding, in motion, that isnt just an empirical assumption, everything is alive, the atoms are pulsing, in that rock, in my finger, in planet saturn, that is a scientific fact... the seed of life lies latent everywhere in the universe, given the right conditions for life to blossom, it does, because life is latent in our universe, because the universe itself is alive.


i dont think you realise, but you have an anthropomorphicized vision of god, you give him human characteristics. you give him thoughts, and feelings and behaviours

"If following your logic, every religious person must worship everything in universe because it contains God. There is a reason why people dont worship rocks, clouds and planet saturn. Because God resides in Heavens, religious people look up to Him and worship Him upwards, in a realm where we cannot comprehend."
"How is the universe "alive" when such motion and interference have absolutely nothing to do with being "alive"."

movement and motion are EXACTLY everything that define life. im not talking about arms and legs here, skasian, get out of your box.
you know.. maybe if people "worshiped" nature instead of jhwh frankenstein, the world would not have turned into a huge pile of s%#t and trash. there is nothing holier than nature.
yeah, god resides in heaven, sitting somewhere drinking ambrosia and thinking "hmm, im gonna start some s**t today "

"God created the universe, and once again, the universe is not Him, and nothing inside the universe can be God, unless His spirit resides in one, (ie God takes form of a burning bush when encountering Moses)."

"aham eva param brahman", skasian.

what is weltanschauung?





6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.


"Battle not with monsters lest ye become a monster and if you gaze into the abyss the abyss gazes into you.."
spread your wings, ikarus.

""He created us for the hope of us being His children"
thats it? thats why we exist? thats the reason for all of this? that is way too naive and underelaborated for me.."

I apologise for my vague approach of expressing my view. Let me put in this context; A man created another human for the hope of them to be his children. Now let us think the reason for all this, why man decides that he wants to become a father. He desires company, create and get to know a human being that has half of his characteristics, physical, pyschological, intellectual etc. He desires to leave a footprint of himself, he desires his footprints to feel the same appreciation of life as he does. He desires to give life to human beings that is part of his flesh and blood. He desires to love and be loved by them, he desires to be proud and be prouded of. He desires beings that he can call his own.

And so did God from the beginning.

So yes, I do give God the same characteristics and personality/emotions that we humans do. I believe we received some of his characteristics including the ability to feel emotions from the start of Creation. However, I believe that we received very little of these characteristics from him ie. we have limitations of loving a fixed number of people, whereas God can love with no limitations.

Ok the scientific definition of "life" is MRS C GREN. M- movement, R- respiratory (exhanging of gases) , S-Sensory, C-Circulation (of blood and materials throughout the body), G- Growth, R-Reproduction, E-Excretory, N-Nutrition. This is from a memory of my intermediate school in science class, and any school student will be able to recognise what in this world is living and what is not. The moon, fire, rock, cloud, planet saturn or the universe is NOT living. The universe may CONTAIN life, as it contains organisms in earth and maybe some odd UFO, but let me make it clear, itself is not living.
You tell any scientist that an atom is living, they will laugh at your face. A.T.O.M comes from Atomic Theory of Matter, and matter is always divided into two, living and nonliving. Atom are the smallest particles we can get that can make up either a living or nonliving matter. The scientific word "living" and anything that possesses life, must have MRS C GREN, and thats that.

The rock with some mosses? Rock itself doesnt cover the MRS C GREN therefore non living. The mosses does cover the MRS C GREN therefore living. The rock provides mosses its habitat and partially responsible for its niche, nothing more. The two things are not the same.

May I ask what "aham eva param brahman" is?

We should worship nature? For what purpose? It contains life, and provides habitat and necessarily materials, but then what? God created nature, and he also created us. In this logic, worshipping nature is like worshipping the next person you see walking past you.

Sorry, but I still dont understand weltanschauung with a couple of random images and verses from the bible. Could you please elaborate?

[Nightshade]

Weltanschang is world view quite literally. It means the way you view the world, glass half full glass half empty kind of. Humm on a completly no religious topic 2 differnt weltanschangs for choosing to go to university.
1) A degree is nesscery to get on in life.
2) Learning is an amazing thing and I study purly for the sake of it.

You get me?

[skasian]

Weltanschang is world view quite literally. It means the way you view the world, glass half full glass half empty kind of. Humm on a completly no religious topic 2 differnt weltanschangs for choosing to go to university.
1) A degree is nesscery to get on in life.
2) Learning is an amazing thing and I study purly for the sake of it.

You get me?

I got you. Thanks for elucidating.

[Rozzy]

Any one ready for a new perspective on Hell? Maybe you already have discussed this, I never went back and read this whole thread.

The Bible is a chronology of past events in time which speaks long about God and all that entails. Today we are taught doctrines especially from the New Testament on both the first advent of Christ and the second.
Concerning the Bible we either believe its teachings or we do not, what if someone has fiddled with the Bible and its teachings and there by we are being taught the doctrines of men rather than the doctrines of God?

Pre christian and early christians up until the fifth century never believed in eternity spent in hell for anyone. Yes that is true, so where do these eternity in hell teachings come from? The answer is quite uncomplicated and short, JEROME that is where.

How can that be when your Bibles all use the word eternal? I can tell you how actually. Several things happened, 1. Jereome switched the Septuagint text out and inserted the Babylonian text 2. Jerome changed the text and 3. he added 2 Peter and Jude which teach a whole new doctrine.

The Septuagint Bible is the Bible used from the third century B.C. up until the fifth century A.D. This text was a Greek translation of the ancient Hebrew scriptures, it came into being because Greek is the language being spoken at the time. The Septuagint Bible is the first Bible, it was translated by Hebrew scholars from Hebrew into Greek.
A major change was taking place, around the fifth century Latin was replacing Greek as the common language. Jerome was asked to translate the scriptures into a standard Latin tranlsation, he was given sole authority over the project and that is where the problems begin.

[Rozzy]

First lets look at the word eternal

The Greek (Septuagint) uses the word 'aionios', today if you look it up in a modern lexicon it will be determined to mean eternal, forever, etc.
However if you look it up and its use in the early christian era and the writings from that time it is not used in that sense. Theoligins have been saying it now for so long to mean eternal that its modern use has now morphed.
Aionios as originally used meant a set time or period which varied depending on the circumstances it was being used. It could mean a set time like three years or a lifetime or an aeon etc.
The Latin equivalent of aionios is 'seculorum' but the word Jerome used was 'aeternum' which is the word english derives the word eternal.
A perfect example is Ephesians ch.3:11 where Jerome did use 'seculorum' but when it came to the words of Jesus he used the word 'aeternum'.
So now Jerome's new translation used the term 'aeternum iusti' which means eternal punishment. That is why our Bibles now say the nonchristian dead will be resurrected to face eternal punishment.
The Septuagint used the word aionios in many places to describe things and events that had already happened and ended so it is not representative of eternal.

[Rozzy]

Something Jerome did was vigorously promote 2 Peter and Jude to be added to the canon. The importance of this can be shown by comparing the doctrines taught in these books as compared to the Old Testament books. The most quoted being Isaiah so let us start there.

(Isa 65:17) For there shall be a new heaven and a new earth: and they shall not at all remember the former, neither shall they at all come into their mind.
(Isa 65:18) But they shall find in her joy and exultation; for, behold, I make Jerusalem a rejoicing, and my people a joy.
(Isa 65:19) And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and will be glad in my people: and there shall no more be heard in her the voice of weeping, or the voice of crying.
(Isa 65:20) Neither shall there be there any more a child that dies untimely, or an old man who shall not complete his time: for the youth shall be a hundred years old, and the sinner who dies at a hundred years shall also be accursed:
Brentons-Septuagint

Notice the transformation of a new heaven and new earth, children being born and sinners dieing at a hundred years old.

Now we will look at 2 Peter on the same subject.

(2Pe 3:7) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
(2Pe 3:10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
(2Pe 3:11) Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
(2Pe 3:12) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
(2Pe 3:13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Look at the difference here, the ungodly are going to be burned up instead of living to be a hundred, the heavens and the earth will pass away in a firey destruction.

It is interesting how 2 Peter opposes Isaiah on this very subject.

The Septuagint says the unrighteous dead will be resurrected to 'aionios kolasis' which means temporary punishment not eternal punishment.

The christian founders believed in temporary punishment, the early christians believed in temporary punishment, from the time forward from Jerome the new christians were taught eternal punishment and because it was now scripture and being taught whole heartedly over time it became the standard doctrine being taught.

[Rozzy]

Here is another interesting fact.

The Bible also teaches that after their punishment Sodom and Gommorrah will be restored to their original state.

(Eze 16:53) And I will turn their captivity, even the captivity of Sodom and her daughters; and I will turn the captivity of Samaria and her daughters; and I will turn thy captivity in the midst of them:
(Eze 16:54) that thou mayest bear thy punishment, and be dishonoured for all that thou hast done in provoking me to anger.
(Eze 16:55) And thy sister Sodom and her daughters shall be restored as they were at the beginning, and thou and thy daughters shall be restored as ye were at the beginning.

Now let us look at Jude ch.1:7
(Jud 1:7) As Sodom and Gomorrha and the neighbouring cities, in like manner, having given themselves to fornication and going after other flesh, were made an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.
English translation of the Vulgate

(Jud 1:7) Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
KJV

Do you see the difference?
Ezekiel has Sodom and Gommorrah redeemed and Jude has Sodom and Gommorrah set as an example of suffering eternal punishment in fire.

You can do a whole study on christianity before Jerome and after, what I have posted is just the surface, but the number one thing that stands out is how he did it, he switched the Septuagint for another text, then made changes to that text and added 2 Peter and Jude.

[Pendragon]

2 Timothy 3:7
EVER LEARNING, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

[Rozzy]

And some are indoctrinated beyond reason so that they can not see the truth though it is in plain veiw right in front of them.

[blp]

Thanks for this detailed explanation, Rozzy. Very interesting.

[Pendragon]

And some are indoctrinated beyond reason so that they can not see the truth though it is in plain veiw right in front of them.

Hey, don't get me wrong, if you go back on the posts you will find my own arguments against eternal hell.