The Christian Hell

[weltanschauung]

I have to admit I see nothing but irony here.

Someone makes fun of your religion and it's disrespectful and hurtful, but telling someone repeatedly that they will burn forever isn't. Didn't Jesus say something about reaping what we sow?

see, they dont get it. they dont get it that their faith, their god, their christ is so offensive to the non-christians, THEY DONT GET IT. they take non-christians as children who have no yet learned their lesson. the see all the non-christians as semi-functioning mongoloids, leading their heretic lifestyle and spreading out evil nonsense like the black plague throughout the earth. i think freud would call that projection.

on a related note, skasian, everything that comes from you towards this topic is completely offensive to my free-non-brainwashed mind and to my soul, as so is everything that you represent. please, have that in mind. your speech offends every atom of my being and hurts my feelings and leaves me with a hopeless despair towards the future of mankind. you are the personification of the most important things that i disaprove in this world. have some mercy on my suffering, and respect my pain.



nikolaiI, i enjoyed your blake quotes, but i think they were a little out of topic, unlike these:
"listen to the fools reproach, it is a kingly tittle!"

"the apple tree never asks the beech how he shall grow, nor the lion, the horse, how he shall take his prey"

"when thou seest an eagle, thou seest a portion of genius. lift up thy head!"

"the roaring of lions, the howling of wolves, the raging of the stormy sea, and the destructive sword are portions of eternity too great for the eye of man."

"always be ready to speak your mind, and a base man will avoid you."

"the eagle never lost so much time, as when he submitted to learn from the crow."


-I-

[dzebra]

evolution isnt religion. you cant pick and choose which parts fit in with your beliefs

I think that analogy is unfair. Religion is not meant for people to pick and choose what they think is right, then ignore the rest. I know it happens (as it happens with scientific theories), but I don't think that is how religion is meant to be used.

[West]

Sure, it's where the desire came from which led to creation of the myth. For peasants and slaves under the thumb of the few, eternal evening up was a great sales pitch.

I don't believe that applies now, however, and a couple of posters in this thread are living proof of it. For some reason, the idea that they are the chosen of their god, while everyone else will burn, is attractive.

I just don't see why. If I were a theist, it would be a repulsive parody of god and I'd have to find a new church without that belief.

The world is a nasty place, and while it would be nice to think of Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot and many, many others forced to account for their sins, so monstrous were they, but it doesn't add up, in my book.



Well, that is the majority view in christianity. Seems a lot friendlier, but then again, maybe a vengeful and unfriendly god is what they're looking for.

Religion gives and gave strength to the under-privelleged(peasants, slaves and the likes). There is no dispute about that. People who were receptive first to the prophets were the poor, the sick and the undermined not because they were intellectually less bright than the elite, but because there was equality, brotherhood, freedom, justice and common decency in the messages brought to them by men who spoke their language and who offered an alternative to their miserable existence. What is also true about peasants, slaves and other underprivelleged groups is their lack of arrogance, a complexity and a trait that almost always prevents people from listening to others they deem inferior. I must admitt that some religious people are arrogant as well, but that has to do nothing with the religion they affliate with but more with their ignorance. In God's eyes, there are no exclusive clubs, no special connection to him by virtue of claiming an allegiance to certain groups. You are as good as your deeds are. If you are a criminal, you get punished for your sins, just like we, the people, set up courts and jails to punish criminals. Likewise, those who have done their share of good in good faith are rewarded for their good deeds. I know all these would make sense to you if you believed in God's existence, but I hope you see the logic behind rewards whether they are negative(hell), or positive(heaven) in nthe eyes of faithfuls. Also, I want to make clear that when I refer to God, I don't mean Jesus as I take him to be a prophet among past prophets and nothing more. He advocatd the same faith Moses advocated for and Mohamed did after Him. I am a muslim.

[The Atheist]

Also, I want to make clear that when I refer to God, I don't mean Jesus as I take him to be a prophet among past prophets and nothing more. He advocatd the same faith Moses advocated for and Mohamed did after Him. I am a muslim.

Yep, very good post, thanks.

[NikolaiI]

nikolaiI, i enjoyed your blake quotes, but i think they were a little out of topic, unlike these:
"listen to the fools reproach, it is a kingly tittle!"

"the apple tree never asks the beech how he shall grow, nor the lion, the horse, how he shall take his prey"

"when thou seest an eagle, thou seest a portion of genius. lift up thy head!"

"the roaring of lions, the howling of wolves, the raging of the stormy sea, and the destructive sword are portions of eternity too great for the eye of man."

"always be ready to speak your mind, and a base man will avoid you."

"the eagle never lost so much time, as when he submitted to learn from the crow."

Actually they are on topic. Consider this one:

"If the doors of perception were cleansed, all would appear as it is, infinite."

Now let us do some logic with this - just to construct a little bit of philosophy.

If we take this as a beginning, then we can say that all exists within the infinite.

What does this mean?

Consdier this statement. I came to this while I am going to sleep, and I wanted to share with you.

A drop of water in an ocean is of the same constitutional properties as the entire ocean. It is qualitatively the same, though the quantity is different.

The same is true of gold. A particle or molecule of gold is chemically the same as the whole bar of gold.

We are the same as this. We are qualitatively the same as God - whether this God is the universe, the source of everything, the infinite, or something else.

Let us take the example of the universe - we are qualitatively the same. How can it be, or what does it mean?

I am saying this because the analogy from gold and water, it is the case in those instances.

And also, don't forget, we are going from Blake saying that if the doors of perception were cleansed, all would appear as it is, infinite.

So all is infinite, or all is divine. But it is not actually simply divine in and of itself. Vegetable matter is not divine, if there is nothing except for vegetable matter. But rather, all is divine because it is part, or rather belongs, to the divine.

All is divine because it is part of the infinite. Vegetable matter, rocks, trees, air, light, us, - all of this is divine because it belongs to God.

Now - whoops - I said that word which wars have been started over and which you do not adhere to.

What is Godhead? Godhead is the supreme. It's the root of existence. It's the Divine Grace. The Divine Mother and the Divine Father. There is no reason to start wars over it, and anything done so is actually only done in trying to become God, instead of trying to serve God. Just look at all the "divine right" rulers.

But just because of human affairs, actualities do not change. The universe is not affected by our actions. Enlightenment does not cease to exist simply because someone who said they were a Buddhist, Hindu, Christian (insert any label) actually committed atrocious acts.

So if what Blake said was true; that all is infinite (or as I would say, all is in some part, part of the infinite, since the infinite is the source of all) - this remains true regardless of human affairs.

As for the Christian Hell - I would say that I read your post and I understand your feelings. I feel this way - or I would if I let my feelings go completely unchecked - when someone ascribes the adjective "delusional" to one of the members of Lit-net. Get this? I get you. I feel the same way about what I just said. But I am encouraging you to consider one point. We are all human!

And one other point, and this will be my last (I realize this post must when it's posted be VERY long because of one-sentence paragraphs...) - Christianity is not based on Hell. Christianity is based on Christ.

Christ taught love of God - God consciousness. This message may not have been new, but it is what he taught. Christ taught that "the Kingdom of God is within you" and this is the message that if someone is not preaching, they are not Christian. It is good news. But it is not incompatible with other religions. If you look at Buddhist scriptures, you will find in the Great Flower Ornament Sutra it says "in every atom of the universe, there exist oceans of world systems." Similarity?

Buddha-nature.

Hinduism also teaches that God is within. The drop of water and particle of gold comes from Hinduism.

But if you look, then you see that Buddha-nature, and divine nature, they are the same. Only Buddhists sometimes are impersonalists. They don't believe in the soul, while Hindus believe in the divine soul. It's the only difference. Both are vegetarian, and both don't eat garlic either. Messes with your subtle energies.

No one has all the answers. But every one of us has the greatest potential. To quote Harrison - each soul is potentially divine.

[weltanschauung]

Actually they are on topic. Consider this one:

"If the doors of perception were cleansed, all would appear as it is, infinite."

Now let us do some logic with this - just to construct a little bit of philosophy.

If we take this as a beginning, then we can say that all exists within the infinite.

What does this mean?

Consdier this statement. I came to this while I am going to sleep, and I wanted to share with you.

A drop of water in an ocean is of the same constitutional properties as the entire ocean. It is qualitatively the same, though the quantity is different.

The same is true of gold. A particle or molecule of gold is chemically the same as the whole bar of gold.

We are the same as this. We are qualitatively the same as God - whether this God is the universe, the source of everything, the infinite, or something else.

Let us take the example of the universe - we are qualitatively the same. How can it be, or what does it mean?

I am saying this because the analogy from gold and water, it is the case in those instances.

And also, don't forget, we are going from Blake saying that if the doors of perception were cleansed, all would appear as it is, infinite.

So all is infinite, or all is divine. But it is not actually simply divine in and of itself. Vegetable matter is not divine, if there is nothing except for vegetable matter. But rather, all is divine because it is part, or rather belongs, to the divine.

All is divine because it is part of the infinite. Vegetable matter, rocks, trees, air, light, us, - all of this is divine because it belongs to God.

Now - whoops - I said that word which wars have been started over and which you do not adhere to.

What is Godhead? Godhead is the supreme. It's the root of existence. It's the Divine Grace. The Divine Mother and the Divine Father. There is no reason to start wars over it, and anything done so is actually only done in trying to become God, instead of trying to serve God. Just look at all the "divine right" rulers.

But just because of human affairs, actualities do not change. The universe is not affected by our actions. Enlightenment does not cease to exist simply because someone who said they were a Buddhist, Hindu, Christian (insert any label) actually committed atrocious acts.

So if what Blake said was true; that all is infinite (or as I would say, all is in some part, part of the infinite, since the infinite is the source of all) - this remains true regardless of human affairs.

As for the Christian Hell - I would say that I read your post and I understand your feelings. I feel this way - or I would if I let my feelings go completely unchecked - when someone ascribes the adjective "delusional" to one of the members of Lit-net. Get this? I get you. I feel the same way about what I just said. But I am encouraging you to consider one point. We are all human!

And one other point, and this will be my last (I realize this post must when it's posted be VERY long because of one-sentence paragraphs...) - Christianity is not based on Hell. Christianity is based on Christ.

Christ taught love of God - God consciousness. This message may not have been new, but it is what he taught. Christ taught that "the Kingdom of God is within you" and this is the message that if someone is not preaching, they are not Christian. It is good news. But it is not incompatible with other religions. If you look at Buddhist scriptures, you will find in the Great Flower Ornament Sutra it says "in every atom of the universe, there exist oceans of world systems." Similarity?

Buddha-nature.

Hinduism also teaches that God is within. The drop of water and particle of gold comes from Hinduism.

But if you look, then you see that Buddha-nature, and divine nature, they are the same. Only Buddhists sometimes are impersonalists. They don't believe in the soul, while Hindus believe in the divine soul. It's the only difference. Both are vegetarian, and both don't eat garlic either. Messes with your subtle energies.

No one has all the answers. But every one of us has the greatest potential. To quote Harrison - each soul is potentially divine.

“God is an intelligible sphere, whose center is everywhere, and whose circumference is nowhere.” (pascal)

[skasian]

evolution isnt religion. you cant pick and choose which parts fit in with your beliefs

Who ever said that evolution is a religion?
Believing in an aspect evolution doesnt mean that it is a religion. Believing on your friend to do something important for you doesnt mean that your friend is a god.
What are you talking about?

[skasian]

I have to admit I see nothing but irony here.

Someone makes fun of your religion and it's disrespectful and hurtful, but telling someone repeatedly that they will burn forever isn't. Didn't Jesus say something about reaping what we sow?



Note the bolding I made.

Sceptics question.

And please do note that there are far better ways to construct an argument than living in a dictionary.



Thanks for the clarification.



How many do you know?

Which atheist boards would you like to put the question at? James Randi? Dawkins? IIDB? Skeptical Community? Skeptics' Forum? Skepchick? Bad Astronomy?

If you intend to argue this point with me, you will be proved sorely wrong. I can absolutely guarantee you that there are no people who are materialist atheists* who don't accept that the Theory of Evolution is largely right.

I doubt you know many atheists and I strongly doubt that you've discussed religion and ToE with many, so I see no point in you arguing this, because you clearly have no idea what you're saying.

* Material atheists are the largest group of atheists and this enables psychic atheists and the likes of David Icke's lizard people to be left out as their opinions are irrelevant.



What assumptions? I know for a fact that many christians don't accept ToE, but I have also shown you that the majority of christians do accept it, because the RCC officially accepts it as correct and they are the majority of christians.

As it happens, the numbers of believers are meaningless anyway - atheism is a minority sport internationally.

You're quite welcome to think the ToE is wrong, but in terms of believability, I'm going to stick with scientists who have actually studied the subject and presented hard evidence rather than a 2000 year old book or a pastor who couldn't set fire to a Bunsen burner.

Insulting someone religion differs from speaking about an aspect about religion. If an aspect of an religion seems like an insult to someone, they should move on, as they do not believe in the religion. I say once again, if people arent ready for the idea of the Christian Hell, then they should avoid the thread altogether. I dont want to insult people, its just the reality about Christian hell.

"A sceptic asks questions and checks evidence to find answers. Belief has nothing to do with it."

I never said about questioning, it is in a skeptic's very nature to question, however when they find what they need to believe in something, they no longer become a skeptic. I used the dictionary to back up my thought about skeptics which you indicated it was wrong.

"Since when don't atheists accepts the ToE? "
Have you forgotten your assumption? Please, remember what you were thinking about. I was explaining that people and friends I know and talked to are atheists that dont necessarily accept evolution completely, therefore there are atheists in the world that do not accept the full ToE.

[The Atheist]

Who ever said that evolution is a religion?
Believing in an aspect evolution doesnt mean that it is a religion.

I know this isn't a question to me, but I'll answer it - and I'm very glad you ask it, because it does show a complete lack of understanding of what was said.

What he means is that the ToE cannot be cherry-picked to take the bits we like and ignore the rest.

Which is what religions do.

I dont want to insult people, its just the reality about Christian hell.

It's the reality, in your view, and it's insulting.

Have you forgotten your assumption?

I don't make assumptions.

I was explaining that people and friends I know and talked to are atheists that dont necessarily accept evolution completely, therefore there are atheists in the world that do not accept the full ToE.

What do they believe instead?

What is your point?

[dzebra]

I don't make assumptions.

lol

[weltanschauung]

I never said about questioning, it is in a skeptic's very nature to question, however when they find what they need to believe in something, they no longer become a skeptic.

skasian, that is exactly the problem: you DONT question anything. you are like a broken record. and see, that which you repeat is only the song some sly producer stick into you, for you are just the record, not the song.

[Redzeppelin]

Two classic comedic pieces!

Cheers.

I look forward to having a beer together in hell.

amen!

Gentlemen, I have tragic news for you: since Hell is supposed to be at minimum unpleasant - the absolute void of emptiness - then the truth must be told: THERE IS NO BEER IN HELL. If there were, would it really be "hell"?

(There is, however, TV in hell).

[weltanschauung]

goshdarnit, redzeppelin, YOURE RIGHT!
i guess we are d00m3d!
AND I BET THE PERMANENT TV SHOW ON AIR IN HELL IS DR.PHILL!!!

[Redzeppelin]

goshdarnit, redzeppelin, YOURE RIGHT!
i guess we are d00m3d!
AND I BET THE PERMANENT TV SHOW ON AIR IN HELL IS DR.PHILL!!!

You've been there!

I told you the horrors there were unimaginable.

I suggest immediate repentance and a changing of your evil ways.

(PS - if you get to the deepest Dantean pit - Dr. Phil is there with you LIVE - and you're the main guest!)

[weltanschauung]