The Christian Hell

[Zee.]

What makes you think that's your final destination? Are you really so certain that your life has finished with all its growth, all its changes? I wouldn't be so sure about that if I were you. God is in the business of changing "sinners" into "saints." It is not His desire that any perish - but His respect of our freedom to choose means that for some, He will have to allow them to choose hell instead of Him. Such a reality grieves God, but He won't take our freedom away. That's called "love" by the way.

I am being saracastic. Christianity does not fit into my realm of beliefs. So no, i dont believe im going to hell, because i dont believe in it.

[Zee.]

I know what love is like. That is not love.

[Redzeppelin]

I am being saracastic. Christianity does not fit into my realm of beliefs. So no, i dont believe im going to hell, because i dont believe in it.

Well, you're free to believe so. Of course, simply choosing not to believe in something doesn't make it not true; that only works if the thing being denied isn't real. If you're wrong?

I know what love is like. That is not love.

What's not love - to allow humanity the freedom of choice where to spend eternity? I don't get it - people complain that God is some sort of tyrant, but He gives us the freedom to choose our destiny - how is that not loving?

[dzebra]

it's factual that not one single instance of miraculous divine cure has been recorded in the entirety of medical history.

There is no way that any human could know what you claim. You have not read all medical records. I believe that you've never heard of any case like that, though.

This is quite funny - denying it because it's in the OT. Do you also deny the myths of creation, the great flood, Moses & Jonah and the thousand other lies in the OT?

The Old Testament has different parts, a couple of which are history and law. The laws described in the Old Testament were established for the Jews that lived before Jesus. When Jesus arrived, he told everybody that the way of life in the Old Testament serves as a physical example of what God wants people to do spiritually. The laws of the OT were changed, but the history in the OT was not. That is not a contradiction, it is using the change as a storytelling device.

If the OT is just a Jewish book, how come the prophecies of Jesus' coming are in it?

Because the Jews were supposed to follow Jesus when he came.

[Zee.]

" What's not love - to allow humanity the freedom of choice where to spend eternity? I don't get it - people complain that God is some sort of tyrant, but He gives us the freedom to choose our destiny - how is that not loving? "

Being presented with option A and option B, and telling me that if i dont choose option A, i go to Hell, is not freedom.

Freedom is absolute.
And freedom should not be built on the basis of fear.

If God truly loved his creations, he would appreciate the beauty of the ability they have to choose their own paths. With, or without him.

You know, i know in my heart, that i am a good person. I have done many great things in my lifetime, and i have helped many people. I have made my mistakes, and i take responsibility for them.So why must i go to hell? because i dont believe or accept? so be it.

If God indeed does send his creatins to hell, simply because they dont accept or believe - he is not worthy of either his title, or his place in the hearts of people. And in my opinion, is no better than a murderer.

You think that accepting God simply frees you from your mistakes?
I am a good person. Perhaps someone who has done more good than many christians. But what's the difference? i dont need to accept God, to know i am a good person. And if indeed such a heaven and hell do exist, i will not simply turn around and "accept" god, to save myself from eternal damnation - that would be false, a cop out, a lie. Perhaps that makes me more of a person, and i believe it does. If you want forgiveness for your sins, your HUMAN mistakes, because that indeed, is what you are. It is not God you should turn to, but the person, the people, yourself who you have wronged. It is their forgiveness you should put energy into obtaining, because you dont get off that easily. You cant bring pain and suffering and expect to be forgiven because you "accept" jesus christ. Why should i, a person who has committed good - made yes, mistakes, but takes responsibility for them, be damned to hell? over say, a person who has done so much wrong, but simply accepts and believes? If indeed, god gave me freewill, i have exercised it, and i have exercised it well, i do not see why he would punish me for it.

You can not give a creature the ability to choose, and find their own path, and then punish them. People who exercise their free will to find their own beliefs, to live a good life, with or without jesus and god,..and whatever else may exist, should be celebrated not frowned upon.

If god is willing to send innocent people to hell because they dont believe in his existance, than he is not worthy of neither his title, or his place in the hearts of others.

Nothing is deserved, it is earned. And if a divine place, or a state of perfect existance is out there, beyond this life, than i deserve to be there.
How dare anyone tell a person who has earned their keep, their place - that they are not worthy of a state of peace, or a place of peace, because they dont believe or accept Jesus, God..or bigfoot.

[The Atheist]

There is no way that any human could know what you claim. You have not read all medical records. I believe that you've never heard of any case like that, though.

Yep, and I believe that medicine is a pretty honest science, by and large and if such a thing had ever been recorded, it would have been published in medical journals.

Yet, that's never happened, although maybe the Medical Journal of Outer Mongolia might try it on. Make that reputable medical journals have never reported such a case.

Quite a few claims have been made, but not once has a miracle been established. I don't think I need to know all of medical history to know that.

That is not a contradiction, it is using the change as a storytelling device.

Yes, quite.

The problem comes in when some of those stories are still used. For instance, if a fundie is adamant the world was created 6013 years ago and that Noah's flood carved the grand canyon in a week, he/she is adamant because the bible says so.

When it contradicts itself, it contradicts itself.

You did note that I provided a link to literally hundreds of contradictions and inconsistencies? Quite a few of them are in the NT as well.

Because the Jews were supposed to follow Jesus when he came.

Hmm, but they didn't did they?

Oh, that's right, they're wrong and christianity is right. Odd how they think the same thing, only vice-versa.

[The Atheist]

Nothing is deserved, it is earned. And if a divine place, or a state of perfect existance is out there, beyond this life, than i deserve to be there.
How dare anyone tell a person who has earned their keep, their place - that they are not worthy of a state of peace, or a place of peace, because they dont believe or accept Jesus, God..or bigfoot.

See, this is what I don't get.

That fits in completely with all of Jesus' alleged parables and wisdom - except for loving his dad.

Rowan Williams, Archbishop of Canterbury, would agree with you 100%, and despite what anyone else may say, he is one of the leading theologians on the planet. More degrees than a thermometer. I'm pretty sure Herr RatZZinger's church would also agree with the broad premise of what you say.

It really is only biblical fundies who don't accept that a good life is a reason for someone to go to heaven, and all logic suggests that an intelligence capable of creating humans would indeed see it the same way. Jesus himself is alleged to have said something about "Judge not lest ye be judged", but clearly that rule doesn't apply to his old man. That's a contradiction for you.

So where is the attraction in the belief that you will go to hell, regardless of how pious or altruistic your life is, because you didn't bow down to an invisble deity? I really believe only misanthropy can create that kind of god.

And I'd turn down the opportunity to meet with the thing which makes those rules.

[Zee.]

Oh this is classic...

god:
numbered killings: 2,391,421
estimated total killings: 33 million

satan:
number killings: 10
estimated total killings: 10

Don't believe me? you should - these results have been tallied from the Bible. And considering we all know how reliable it is - i guess we have to accept the above as rock solid truth.

Ref: http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot....an-or-god.html

Confirmed by endless sources.

[skasian]

Skasian every point you're making is not only flawed - but seems to be trying to stitch up the holes in what you believe to be "facts".

"Incredulous or not, I just wanted to point out that Christian hell and heaven does exist no matter what other Christians may think."

In that statement you even admit that other Christians have alternative beliefs. What makes you right? of all the billions of people in the world why should we believe you?
You speak as if from fact.
It seems to me that you're taking Hell and Heaven too literally - if such a thing does in fact exist. Perhaps Hell is only a state of mind - a "place" that is without God.
Though the world seems to be without God today - so maybe we're already there.

If you read THe Atheist post, I was referring to his/her post. The Atheist pointed out that billions of Christians do not believe in hell, so in reference to his jargon, I stated what I believed in.
Look, what you believe in, I respect and dont take it too seriously as I believe in my own sets of values. The problem you have is, if you have your own sets of beliefs and values, why do you care what other peoples belief and values are like? If you dont believe in Jesus, you dont have to believe in our Hell or what I believe in. How can you be mad about maybe ending up in Christian Hell when clearly you are not Christian? It is up to you what you believe in but dont come to me and say I seem to have all the "facts" when it is my strong opinions about my faith. If you have strong values of Buddhism, such Christian values should not affect you. Hold on to your Buddhism faith or philosophy and dont let other religion let you down if you choose not to believe them. I am speaking out as a person, religious or not, and I want to help you stop thinking that I have all the facts but that I have a strong belief.

[Delta40]

You spoke eloquently then Skasian.

[skasian]

We're really not going very far with this discussion. Perhaps i should just accept that i'm going to Hell and take my leave.

Are you even Buddhist? If you have your belief and philosophy, then stick to it, without being hindered with other religious values. What I want to say is either believe in Christianity or dont. Therefore believe in Christian hell or dont. You cant be in the middle therefore dont let yourself down thinking you are going to hell when clearly you dont believe in Christianity. All religions must point this out: live your life to the fullest with spreading the good over the bad as much as possible.

[skasian]

So, you never saw the tumours, but have believed that they existed. Accordingly, what you saw was nothing, but you have been told a story which you chose to believe.



These things have been investigated, yet not a single instance of miraculous cure has ever been recorded. That is despite 3/4 of all medical doctors in USA being christians. You'd think some of them would be quite keen to see a real miracle recoreded, wouldn't you, yet it does not happen.

I guess the thought that you're being lied to isn't a possibility?



You clearly missed the point with the NZ couples, because nobody claimed to be the messiah - but both couples prayed to their god instead of going to the doctor.

Did they not pary hard enough?

As to the people "cured" in your church, Benny Hinn does exactly the same thing, yet he's been labelled a charlatan by even the Southern Baptist Convention.

Don't you find it funny that the identical things are carried out by frauds?

To check the real details of the "miracle cures" I would need to see notarised statements from doctors confirming both the existence of the disease and the cure.

Isn't it odd that none of them ever do that, despite a genuine miracle being something which would actually impress the unbelievers?



There are over a billion Catholics in the world for starters and their official doctrine doesn't include a hell. Given the thousands of theologists in the employ of the RCC over many centuries, I think their view is considered by most to be the best interpretation of the bible, yet you dismiss it, saying that your theology is right! How long has your church been in existence? How many biblical scholars have devoted their lives to reading and translating the original Greek, Hebrew, Amhharic and Latin texts?

Here are details of the different branches of christianity.

Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican and many other sects do not believe in hell, accounting for over 80% of christians.

Maybe you should check what some other branches think.

It is not a story to believe. It was someone that was clearly dying from a tumor, and been declared that the doctors cannot save him. He was going to spend a couple of months waiting to die. After he got healed, we got a report back from the doctor it was just a miracle.
If it is evidence what I saw with my eyes, then I saw an old lady that was paralysed, stuck in a wheelchair for most of her life, and when she got healed by God, she starting running around praising God. Her family starting crying and praising with her. Do you think that was fake? And how could I have been lied to when I have experienced my self of see it with my own two eyes? It is actually sad that God have to provide with miracles that can be perceived with our eyes. The truth is it implies lack of faith and belief. People are thinking because they cant see with their physical eyes, God doesnt exist. What about love, we cant see it but we can feel love being poured from someone even in long distances. God is Love, our physical eyes cannot see God but by our hearts and spiritual eye, He is inexplicable for us to imagine. I have to ask you, do you think love from your friends and family may be fake just because you cant see it?

Precisely maybe that is the reason why miracles are not reported by medical doctors, as you have suspected: frauds. People of today are becoming more and more skeptic no matter what seems to be miracles they repudiate saying its fake. Maybe having a religious aspect in a scientific, medical area causes issues again like what you are suspecting now: fake and frauds. Skeptics are stubborn, and they refuse to believe in anything else then what is in reality. This echoes in some scenes in the bible, when Jesus came to earth, some people thought and rebuked he was an anti Christ and that he was fake even though mircales were happening in from of their noses. It is a sad reality and maybe this is the reason why there is limited amount of "evidence"

And please dont suggest what I said was "fake". For me it was not fake as I experienced my shoulder joints moving and clicking in correct places as I felt intensive heat while praying. I dont mind if you dont believe in what I say but dont accuse me that I am fake, just move on if you suspect falseness.

Christians that rebuke Christians like you have said about Benny Hinn is not uncommon. Christians are still human, and they may act as same as any other non believers. Some Christians believe that we should not practise anointing like Benny Hinn which scares them, as it is out of the ordinary. The same went for the church that I went to that practised this. Other churches whispered to each other and started to rebuke. That is reality of followers in churches, we are often corrupt, against Gods Will. That is why Christians must open their eyes from this and truely focus on God.

The branches you were talking about, I apologise I wasnt accounting every branch of Christianity, such as Catholic, Orthodox.. But the people that claim as Christian, not Catholic or Orthodox, do believe in Hell as in the bible there are many verses that God talked about Hell. Now why would there be now hell when God Himself talked about it?

[Zee.]

Yes i agree with Delta, you spoke well.

My problem is, i get winded up in an argument - and end up arguing when i really dont need to.
Then again - if i hadnt been told that me personally - was going to hell, i probably would have backed off from the start.

[skasian]

Yes i agree with Delta, you spoke well.

My problem is, i get winded up in an argument - and end up arguing when i really dont need to.
Then again - if i hadnt been told that me personally - was going to hell, i probably would have backed off from the start.

Ah, thank you to both of you

If you had taken in my belief personally and affected you as a person, I apologise, I hate it when I make someone feel bad in any kind of way. I never intended to upset or anger anyone when I was stating the belief Christianity had about hell. In a way, I didnt realise such aspect would hurt any one. This is because I thought that as all people had their fixed values, such belief such as mine wouldnt affect them. It seems I was wrong, however I still would like you to strengthen up your own belief and values no matter how contrasting others may be with yours and therefore grow more powerful as a religious or philosophical person.

[Zee.]

No apology needed.

I got fired up.I just want you to understand that none of my posts were intended to be hurtful to you.

You're good to debate with - i guess i gave my all